9318 réponses à ce sujet

[aTigerslunch]

As a hetero male, I saw the females in Witcher 2 as sexual objects for Geralt.  Figured I would add that in, so did all the guys that bring it up around me, one said, can rape her willingly, he got corrected by the rest of us. The rape part was uncalled for, though they was still considered sexual objects regardless.

 

 

I do want to say, this is my favorite thread out of all threads. 

 

 

Yes, Puppylove, sorry to hear about that. Glad your fine now, at least hope so anyways.

 

 

Edit: Males do get raped, most likely the thought of being less of a man is why it doesn't want to be mentioned. I never have, and don't know any that did, just figuring what I would think its possibility is.

[Puppy Love]

Okay first of all I am so sorry that happened to you.  Are you alright?

 

I think my problem with rape used as a threat/motivator in video games is that it's pretty much always directed toward women. As mentioned previously, men get raped too, but video games never utilize that as a threat toward men themselves. It's always their "woman" to is on the receiving end. It makes me extremely uncomfortable - it makes me feel like whoever is writing these scripts views women as these rape-able dolls while men are respected enough to just get mugged or beaten. 

 

It was awhile ago, and yes I'm alright.  Ended up leaving a good job with an understanding boss because of it, but things got weird after the incident.  Lot's of silent blame and cold treatment by the guys friends and acquaintances that decided him accosting me getting him fired was my fault somehow.  

 

I guess I felt differently about it in dragon age, as I was able to fight back as a female.  Like I said cathartic.  But yes you are correct is almost universally used as a crime against women.  Though being as I've heard both men and women vehemently insist men can't get raped I'm not surprised.  Well outside of prison rape...  Is the one time men are portrayed getting raped more than women.

[Brass_Buckles]

Been robbed before and been threatened with rape and murder while slammed against the wall.

 

Both were horrifying, but even though I lost three hundred dollars from the robbery, the mere threat of rape and murder and the dehumanizing inherent in that threat was more horrifying and traumatizing than the robbery was.  Rape is used so often because it gets such a strong emotional gut reaction out of people, which things like robbery does not.

 

Is robbery not bad?  Of course it is, but it does not get the strong reaction out of people that rape does.  When I hear someone got robbed it does not invoke the same reaction in me as hearing someone got raped.  One will ****** me off, the other will make me want to kill somebody.

 

Why specifically rape?  Because it is the worst of the worst.  Only thing worse would be the same happening to a child, and Bioware even had that being implied in dragon age 2.

 

It is precisely because rape is so recognizably horrendous that it is such a go to.  It never loses it's kick and power, it's that bad.

 

All the other things occur in games and media as motivators, but they are largely ignored or barely recognized because they lack that same blow to the gut that rape does.  If one hundred non rape scenarios occur, the one rape scenario will stand out like a beacon amongst them because the rest are just not as powerful.

 

It is precisely because rape is dehumanizing and horrifying, right up there with slavery, that I don't think it should be used as often in novels, video games, etc.

 

When we see rape as the go-to horrific event used against women (but almost never men!), it begins to lose that emotional gut impact that you talk about.  In fact, I never, in the scenes I've seen in a game, really gotten the impression I'm supposed to find the victim dehumanized--but I'm often given the impression I'm supposed to feel sorry for the boyfriend/husband/protagonist who's seeing it happen.  What this does is detract from actual sympathy and empathy with the victim.  And it's easier to do that when it's the go-to Harmful Thing that happens to a character.

 

Unfortunately, I believe you're wrong about rape scenes losing their impact and power.  If they hadn't, then we wouldn't have kids throwing around phrases like "I totally raped that guy," when all they've done is defeated an opponent in a video game.  We wouldn't have people JOKING about rape as if it were something hilarious, or grown men I've known saying they totally raped their future wife in a car deal (yes, I knew someone who said that--I didn't like the guy already but after that he COMPLETELY disgusted me).  When you saturate the media with something, it loses its impact, at least until it's something that happens/has happened to YOU, specifically, or someone you care about.

 

A robbery, beating, or attempted murder can also be horribly dehumanizing--particularly if it is a hate crime, and you know it wouldn't happen to you if you were only the "right" race, or the "right" gender identity/sexuality.

 

I'm not going to argue with you that a robbery, beating, attempted murder, etc. are worse than rape.  They aren't.  Rape is horribly intimate (and is often even committed by a person you know)--someone knows you don't want it, and they're going to ignore your wishes and force it on you anyway because it's what THEY want.  They don't want sex, they want rape.  What I am arguing is there are other ways to get the point across that, for instance, elves are horribly oppressed in the Dragon Age universe.  It did not need, in any way, shape, or form, to be rape.  Beatings, jailing everyone who gathered, killing a few of your family to set an example, burning your home down... any of these things could have happened to an elf, and they'd basically be helpless to stop it.  It never needed to be rape.

[Brass_Buckles]

Also, Puppy Love... I'm really sorry about what happened to you, and that you had to leave your job for it.  I don't mean to disrespect you by not addressing that in my previous post.

[Brass_Buckles]

Okay first of all I am so sorry that happened to you.  Are you alright?

 

I think my problem with rape used as a threat/motivator in video games is that it's pretty much always directed toward women. As mentioned previously, men get raped too, but video games never utilize that as a threat toward men themselves. It's always their "woman" who is on the receiving end. It makes me extremely uncomfortable - it makes me feel like whoever is writing these scripts views women as these rape-able dolls while men are respected enough to just get mugged or beaten. 

 

I'd like to add to this that, in fact, men can be raped, and male rape victims do not even necessarily have to be victims of other men.  Women can, do, and have raped men, whether it be taking advantage while a man is too drunk to consent, or any other situation.  Physical arousal does not equal consent.

[Ryzaki]

It was awhile ago, and yes I'm alright.  Ended up leaving a good job with an understanding boss because of it, but things got weird after the incident.  Lot's of silent blame and cold treatment by the guys friends and acquaintances that decided him accosting me getting him fired was my fault somehow.  

 

I guess I felt differently about it in dragon age, as I was able to fight back as a female.  Like I said cathartic.  But yes you are correct is almost universally used as a crime against women.  Though being as I've heard both men and women vehemently insist men can't get raped I'm not surprised.  Well outside of prison rape...  Is the one time men are portrayed getting raped more than women.

 

ugh I'm happy you're doing better now in any case.

 

And yeah I feel that way myself. It's just a bit tiresome how that tends to be a highly used motivation for females but almost never used for males. It's really not treated the way I feel it should be treated and thus I really feel a lot of devs would be better off avoiding it since they really don't use it as anything more than a "X is a villian here's why!" and it's a cheap quick label to get the player to see someone gone too far over the moral horizon.

 

Or worst a quick way to say someone's backstory sucked. (Really tired of rape as backstory especially when it's used poorly)

[Puppy Love]

Also, Puppy Love... I'm really sorry about what happened to you, and that you had to leave your job for it.  I don't mean to disrespect you by not addressing that in my previous post.

 

No disrespect was taken, and I agree with your point.  Is like slavery and the holocaust.   When I was in school both got so much attention I'm not even phased by it anymore.  Which bothers me, because both were horrifying things that should evoke strong reactions in people.

 

So, ok I agree with your points, rape definitely is over used.

[Puppy Love]

I'd like to add to this that, in fact, men can be raped, and male rape victims do not even necessarily have to be victims of other men.  Women can, do, and have raped men, whether it be taking advantage while a man is too drunk to consent, or any other situation.  Physical arousal does not equal consent.

 

Oh trust me, I know men can be raped by either sex.  I'm just stating it's barely recognized and it's lack of inclusion is unsurprising because of that.

[Bugsie]

Wow, this thread exploded before I could add the response I was going to make. But in regard to 'women should just make games!' it's far more complicated than that and somewhat wider issue than just games. An example - I like reading scifi and (some) fantasy, and you'd think that speculative fiction as a whole would be welcoming to fiction writers who are women, people of colour and non binary genders, but there is some that view that sf writing belongs to men, that a call for representation is somehow a gigantic conspiracy to remove masculinity (and what some may see as 'traditional' femininity) from the genre, but as long as there's a market, and people want to read about manly men with guns doing manly things and women hanging from their heel it's not going to disappear just because the genre is now appealing to a wider audience. I myself have enjoyed Heinlein's work and works from Baen (a conservative publishing house for those unaware) but I am very much looking forward to reading other speculative works along Anne Leckies latest Hugo winner. One does not negate the other, if anything I read wider now than I have ever before and I'm sure others are the same.

But let's limit it to games for now, the media of gaming really hasn't been around long enough for some of these ridiculous arguments to have any historical grounding. Marketing has told us that ( and again recent phenomenon as it was originally marketed as 'family' entertainment) games are for boys, those boys are now men, and it's rather a confusing message that is now translated as 'you're a girl and like games?' I can hardly blame men for something that has only ever been portrayed as something they would like. But it's time for the industry to grow up and realise, hey, women want to play games, they want to make games, they want to engage with other gamers of all persuasions and talk about tactics, about story, about combat about characters and do it in a fun environment outside everyday responsibilities. Women, POC and non-binary folk also want to talk about representation without being screamed at for being social justice warriors, femi-**** or tumblr/reddit users. We all just want to have fun too ya know?

As someone who enjoyed games when I was a child in the 70's, then told over time by marketing types that these things weren't for me (I stubbornly told them to ****** off) I am happy to see that games are becoming more egalitarian in their nature. People say by casting the net wider the poorer or more diluted the industry becomes, I disagree, like speculative sf and fantasy fiction it has become a richer playing field.

In regards to gaming journalism, I am not going to comment, I think wiser people have made more reasoned comment than I could make of it, suffice to say, I think anyone with a blog, an opinion and a YouTube channel thinks they can be a journalist (that is more a comment on the wider direction of journalism on the internet not just in gaming, so don't get me started on 'news' websites!)

[Brass_Buckles]

Oh trust me, I know men can be raped by either sex.  I'm just stating it's barely recognized and it's lack of inclusion is unsurprising because of that.

 

Never said you didn't.  I'm just saying that, because someone (I thought it was Mes?) commented about prison rapes... which are male-on-male.  Regardless, I don't think we need to see EVERYONE get raped; I really think we need to show LESS rape, and when we do show rape, it needs to sympathize and empathize with the victim rather than the men who can claim "ownership" over her, or, worse yet, the rapist himself.

 

There's some kind of manga I've heard of--I'm hoping it's not real--in the past that had a "superhero" who raped women whom he felt wronged him.  But they're bad women, right, so it's okay?  They hurt the poor rapist...

 

That's precisely the thinking that often happens when we see a rape victim in the media.  "She turned him down/was mean to him, poor guy."  But he's not a poor guy, because he's got the same options not to rape that everyone else has.  We're also supposed to feel bad for the nice guys who are only nice to get sex, and reward them with sex because they didn't rape anyone.  But not raping people is just a basic standard of decency.  You don't deserve a cookie (or sex) for not doing something horrible.

 

No, if rape absolutely HAS to be part of a story, I'd rather it be shown as something that is absolutely horrible... to the VICTIM.  Not to his/her spouse/girlfriend/boyfriend/lover/parent/sibling/child.  But usually we see how it affects everyone but the victim.  And again, Bioware is not innocent of this.  Sure, it affects other people, but the victim is the one we should be feeling for, not the perpetrator, not the significant other or the child across the street who witnessed it--well, okay, let's spare SOME concern for the child.  It should be about helping the victim, not being crushed momentarily about something that happened to someone else.

 

I'm getting tired and I have no idea how much sense I'm making at the moment... probably not much...

[Puppy Love]

Never said you didn't.  I'm just saying that, because someone (I thought it was Mes?) commented about prison rapes... which are male-on-male.  Regardless, I don't think we need to see EVERYONE get raped; I really think we need to show LESS rape, and when we do show rape, it needs to sympathize and empathize with the victim rather than the men who can claim "ownership" over her, or, worse yet, the rapist himself.

 

There's some kind of manga I've heard of--I'm hoping it's not real--in the past that had a "superhero" who raped women whom he felt wronged him.  But they're bad women, right, so it's okay?  They hurt the poor rapist...

 

That's precisely the thinking that often happens when we see a rape victim in the media.  "She turned him down/was mean to him, poor guy."  But he's not a poor guy, because he's got the same options not to rape that everyone else has.  We're also supposed to feel bad for the nice guys who are only nice to get sex, and reward them with sex because they didn't rape anyone.  But not raping people is just a basic standard of decency.  You don't deserve a cookie (or sex) for not doing something horrible.

 

No, if rape absolutely HAS to be part of a story, I'd rather it be shown as something that is absolutely horrible... to the VICTIM.  Not to his/her spouse/girlfriend/boyfriend/lover/parent/sibling/child.  But usually we see how it affects everyone but the victim.  And again, Bioware is not innocent of this.  Sure, it affects other people, but the victim is the one we should be feeling for, not the perpetrator, not the significant other or the child across the street who witnessed it--well, okay, let's spare SOME concern for the child.  It should be about helping the victim, not being crushed momentarily about something that happened to someone else.

 

I'm getting tired and I have no idea how much sense I'm making at the moment... probably not much...

 

I only mentioned prison rape as the one time rape of men is not only recognized but more recognized.  It was me mentioning it as the exception to the rule that seems to be in place is all. 

 

I also agree, it is the victim who should be sympathized with not anyone else.  I also believe that is a real manga, I've heard of it too.

 

And yes more rape, just of men instead of women fixes nothing.

 

If a male ever did get raped by women against his will in a game, and dared to be upset about it, I don't think I'd want to deal with some of the comments I know would occur about his character.

 

Though it might at least get people talking about it.

[Brass_Buckles]

I only mentioned prison rape as the one time rape of men is not only recognized but more recognized.  It was me mentioning it as the exception to the rule that seems to be in place is all. 

 

I also agree, it is the victim who should be sympathized with not anyone else.  I also believe that is a real manga, I've heard of it too.

 

And yes more rape, just of men instead of women fixes nothing.

 

If a male ever did get raped by women against his will in a game, and dared to be upset about it, I don't think I'd want to deal with some of the comments I know would occur about his character.

 

Though it might at least get people talking about it.

 

Well, the Dark Ritual, if you send Alistair to Morrigan, basically looks a whole lot like rape, to me.  Sure, their antagonism MIGHT be sexual tension, but I never once had that impression.  They neither of them like one another, but you told Alistair to go do this and so he will.  I guess it's not precisely rape because he's consenting, but it's very close to it.  Because of that, I'm unsure if I can make him go through with it in my playthrough I've got on hold.  I intended to, so that I could become queen of Ferelden with Alistair at my side, but how could you love someone and send them to do something that is clearly abhorrent to them?

[oceanicsurvivor]

Well, the Dark Ritual, if you send Alistair to Morrigan, basically looks a whole lot like rape, to me.  Sure, their antagonism MIGHT be sexual tension, but I never once had that impression.  They neither of them like one another, but you told Alistair to go do this and so he will.  I guess it's not precisely rape because he's consenting, but it's very close to it.  Because of that, I'm unsure if I can make him go through with it in my playthrough I've got on hold.  I intended to, so that I could become queen of Ferelden with Alistair at my side, but how could you love someone and send them to do something that is clearly abhorrent to them?

I mean, that situation is pretty much 'have sex with her or die' so, it pretty much qualifies

 

Anyway....not much in the way of Lady inquisitor at Pax thus far. But it looks like the MP characters are an even split. Thats exciting My new hope is that Maevaris could be one of the MP characters. It would be nice to actually have a playable trans character in the game.

[Puppy Love]

Well, the Dark Ritual, if you send Alistair to Morrigan, basically looks a whole lot like rape, to me.  Sure, their antagonism MIGHT be sexual tension, but I never once had that impression.  They neither of them like one another, but you told Alistair to go do this and so he will.  I guess it's not precisely rape because he's consenting, but it's very close to it.  Because of that, I'm unsure if I can make him go through with it in my playthrough I've got on hold.  I intended to, so that I could become queen of Ferelden with Alistair at my side, but how could you love someone and send them to do something that is clearly abhorrent to them?

Yeah that never set well with me either...  Still did it for the queen play through, but I hated it.  Especially as there was a child involved too.  The whole scenario is all kinds of sick... o.o

[Ryzaki]

Yeah I like Alistair but I'm so disgusted with that whole DR plot chain I just marry him hardened to Anora and then feed Loghain to archie.

 

He and my warden will make amends one day.

[RevilFox]

I always get sort of uncomfortable during this kind of discussion, because I can't have a truly valid opinion on it. And I don't mean that if I give my opinion it will be dismissed or that I'll be told it's not valid. I specifically mean that my opinion on the pervasiveness or violence against women, sexual or otherwise, is something that my privilege as, outwardly, a straight white male prevents me from having. So when I watch a video like Tropes vs. Women, my initial instinct is to argue the point (saying many of the same things that have been said here), but I'm not really arguing from a position of understanding.

[Han Shot First]

I mean, that situation is pretty much 'have sex with her or die' so, it pretty much qualifies

 

 

Not quite.

 

Morrigan used neither violence or threat of violence to compel anyone into doing the dark ritual. The threat of death was coming from the darkspawn and the Blight, and Morrigan merely offered an out. The objective of the DR isn't even to save the Warden. It just happens to be a lucky side effect. Morrigan also allows the Warden or Alistair to refuse, she just chooses to leave if they do so. 

[oceanicsurvivor]

I always get sort of uncomfortable during this kind of discussion, because I can't have a truly valid opinion on it. And I don't mean that if I give my opinion it will be dismissed or that I'll be told it's not valid. I specifically mean that my opinion on the pervasiveness or violence against women, sexual or otherwise, is something that my privilege as, outwardly, a straight white male prevents me from having. So when I watch a video like Tropes vs. Women, my initial instinct is to argue the point (saying many of the same things that have been said here), but I'm not really arguing from a position of understanding.

Please feel welcome to add to the discussion Contrary to some peoples opinion, we aren't a scary group and we value new views and opinions And it seems like we have had some varied views on the women vs. Video Game videos too haha

[Nefla]

Never said you didn't.  I'm just saying that, because someone (I thought it was Mes?) commented about prison rapes... which are male-on-male.  Regardless, I don't think we need to see EVERYONE get raped; I really think we need to show LESS rape, and when we do show rape, it needs to sympathize and empathize with the victim rather than the men who can claim "ownership" over her, or, worse yet, the rapist himself.

 

There's some kind of manga I've heard of--I'm hoping it's not real--in the past that had a "superhero" who raped women whom he felt wronged him.  But they're bad women, right, so it's okay?  They hurt the poor rapist...

 

That's precisely the thinking that often happens when we see a rape victim in the media.  "She turned him down/was mean to him, poor guy."  But he's not a poor guy, because he's got the same options not to rape that everyone else has.  We're also supposed to feel bad for the nice guys who are only nice to get sex, and reward them with sex because they didn't rape anyone.  But not raping people is just a basic standard of decency.  You don't deserve a cookie (or sex) for not doing something horrible.

 

No, if rape absolutely HAS to be part of a story, I'd rather it be shown as something that is absolutely horrible... to the VICTIM.  Not to his/her spouse/girlfriend/boyfriend/lover/parent/sibling/child.  But usually we see how it affects everyone but the victim.  And again, Bioware is not innocent of this.  Sure, it affects other people, but the victim is the one we should be feeling for, not the perpetrator, not the significant other or the child across the street who witnessed it--well, okay, let's spare SOME concern for the child.  It should be about helping the victim, not being crushed momentarily about something that happened to someone else.

 

I'm getting tired and I have no idea how much sense I'm making at the moment... probably not much...

Oh it's real all right http://en.wikipedia....iki/The_Rapeman and there are worse things out there

 

I think if they wanted to keep the creepy rape part of the city elf origin, they should have made it attempted rape and had it the same for both genders. Have the player singled out instead of Shianni (maybe have them beat up before being put in the cell) and have the group of elves have to stage a scary and difficult escape where they sneak out of a cell unarmed the whole time (maybe with the dead body of a previous victim there so you know what you're in for) rather than easily killing all the guards. That way you'd still get the tone, the fact that life is horrible, often terrifying and powerless for the elves without having an actual character thrown under the bus.

[Brass_Buckles]

Yeah that never set well with me either...  Still did it for the queen play through, but I hated it.  Especially as there was a child involved too.  The whole scenario is all kinds of sick... o.o

 

My first playthrough I didn't do it at all because, even though I wanted to survive the ending, I didn't think Morrigan could possibly be up to any good with any sort of ritual requiring blood magic + sex.  Also what exactly was she planning to do with an Old God in her grasp?  I already knew that she had some rather... evil... opinions on things, to the point where, far from being merely apathetic about my insistence on actually helping people, she actively disapproved.   So, I didn't really trust her.  At all.  But I survived anyway because I took Alistair to fight by my side, and then he refused to let me kill the Archdemon.  Which is also problematic, because I should have been allowed, by the game, to do so, even with Alistair present.  But I guess boyfriends/husbands being protective was somehow more important than the wishes of the female protagonist...

 

The next playthrough, I did do the Dark Ritual, and then I felt bad about it.

[oceanicsurvivor]

Not quite.

 

Morrigan used neither violence or threat of violence to compel anyone into doing the dark ritual. The threat of death was coming from the darkspawn and the Blight, and Morrigan merely offered an out. The objective of the DR isn't even to save the Warden. It just happens to be a lucky side effect. Morrigan also allows the Warden or Alistair to refuse, she just chooses to leave if they do so. 

 

Yeah, I guess thats fair. I don't even view Morrigan as super happy with the situation. Like, it seems like she is being asked if not forced to sacrifice for whatever Flemeths big grand plan is. Overall it is a suuuuuuper messed up situation no matter which way you look at it

[Pasquale1234]

I haven't seen her latest one but I don't like how she misrepresents a lot of the games she talks about. Mass Effect was one of them, she railed on about how in game manshep was just called Shepard and femshep was called femshep  she clearly never played it but she claimed it was sexist.

She used femshep as an example of how female leads are "othered" in media, e.g. male is the assumed default. I don't recall her claiming it sexist, only pointing out that a female version of an heroic character tends to be treated as an exception.
 

She doesn't even play most of the games she talks about, she takes things out of context, she criticizes games that are like 30-40 years old (when our entire culture was more sexist) she lies and contradicts herself at every turn and I think she's an annoying idiot. The representation of women in video games and the treatment of female gamers is a real issue but she uses it to get money and does more damage to people's perceptions than she does good. That being said, those people harassing her are just disgusting.

I can't claim any insider knowledge as to the number of games she has played, but she has indicated that she has played hundreds in the course of her research.

I've watched her videos, and my impression is that, one by one, she clearly defines a trope and then shows a number of examples of that trope in games. The tropes themselves have undoubtedly existed in other forms of media (horror films, anyone?) much longer than the ~ 30 years or so that video games have existed. She prefaces every one of her videos with a statement indicating that it is possible to be critical of some parts of a piece of media while still finding other parts valuable or enjoyable. It costs a lot of time and money to locate and assemble all of that material into the finished videos she has created.

I have watched the first few minutes of a couple of the videos intended to discredit her, and have seen nothing but strawmen.

Maybe I need to watch them again with a more critical stance, but I really don't understand all the backlash.
 

So while the video clip might be out of context and while, yes, Witcher should have been included, Sarkeesian is not totally off base. Just because I like Bioware doesn't mean that they are above criticism, in other words.

The lead writer of the DA team seems to agree with you.

[Ryzaki]

/did dark ritual every time, Alistair or otherwise

 

Oops.

 

XD

 

No oops necessary we all picked the endings we preferred.

 

My golden ending was Loghain being redeemed, with a new king and queen beloved by the people leading their country into stability after a distressing time.

 

And my warden walking off into the sunset with Leliana...until she apparently vanished...for reasons I hope are explained in DAI. XD

 

But speaking off I have to admit how utterly joyful I am BW let's me have female protagonists in such positions of power influencing the world. It's very nice and something I very much value even if I don't say it

[Brass_Buckles]

Not quite.

 

Morrigan used neither violence or threat of violence to compel anyone into doing the dark ritual. The threat of death was coming from the darkspawn and the Blight, and Morrigan merely offered an out. The objective of the DR isn't even to save the Warden. It just happens to be a lucky side effect. Morrigan also allows the Warden or Alistair to refuse, she just chooses to leave if they do so. 

 

Rape doesn't always have to involve violence or the threat of violence, though.  Still, because both consented--Alistair agrees to it and Morrigan is the one asking in the first place--it's more two people who don't like each other at all having potentially unpleasant sex.  No one's consent is being overridden.  Alistair had the chance to say no.  Morrigan could have backed out.  Neither did.  It's still not a pretty situation and it's right on the borderline of what I'd consider rape, because it IS an option of "sex with someone you hate, or death," but no one's been actively threatened, no one's forced, both are sober, etc.