9318 réponses à ce sujet

[Brass_Buckles]

She used femshep as an example of how female leads are "othered" in media, e.g. male is the assumed default. I don't recall her claiming it sexist, only pointing out that a female version of an heroic character tends to be treated as an exception.

 

 

I haven't watched many of her videos, but if she meant the fact that "Shepard" by default is Male Shepard, while Female Shepard had to have a special term coined for her... yes, she's got a point.  We also coined a separate term for the female Hawke (I was the first to call her LadyHawke, as a joke sort of, referring to an old fantasy movie, and then others liked it and picked that name up--she's now also known as FemHawke, but early on my term caught fire possibly because of its relation to that movie... not sure).  It does bear thinking about why we feel the need to call men the name without prefix or suffix, but women have to have a special word just to indicate they aren't men.  Even "gender-neutral" often skews male.  See: the demons of DA:O and DA:I.  Pride demons should basically be genderless, but they have male voices...

[Nefla]

She used femshep as an example of how female leads are "othered" in media, e.g. male is the assumed default. I don't recall her claiming it sexist, only pointing out that a female version of an heroic character tends to be treated as an exception.

Yes, she claimed femshep was othered and treated as less than because she had "fem" as a qualifier, claiming that manshep was only referred to as Shepard when if she actually knew anything about the game she'd know it's ALWAYS just "Shepard" in game and it's either femshep, manshep, or sheploo (or again Shepard for any of those 3) everyone gets a qualifier. If she actually knew the series, she'd have brought up the fact that femshep wasn't advertised until the last game, an actual valid point. She's said in some of her lectures that she doesn't like video games and she's not a gamer. She uses footage from other people's lets plays without permission (which she wouldn't need to do if she actually bought and played all the games she said she would). She does things like criticizing Resident Evil 5 for having to fight a female character (Jill) to get a mind control thing off her because it makes her a "euthanized damsel" or something like that and cuts the footage to make it look like a guy beating on a poor defenseless woman, when it's a guy and a girl trying to remove a device without killing her. This kind of scenario is common for male characters as well (fighting a mind controlled character) there's nothing sexist about it but she has to be as inflammatory as possible so she can get more publicity and money.

[RevilFox]

If you look at it in a certain light, despite Morgan having sex with Alister, it's actually the Warden that's raping him if she's the one that's forcing him to do it. I never romanced him, so I'm not 100% on how the scene plays out, but isn't there an option to tell him he's doing it...wait. Let me find it on YouTube...

 

 

 

Okay, yeah, it's absolutely rape. If you haven't romanced him, you cannot convince him to do it. If you did, you literally say to him, "If you loved me you would do this" and only then does he agree, after quipping that he now has to live his life knowing that he's completely wrapped around your finger. In the non romance version, he makes it very clear that he would rather die fighting the Archdemon than go through with this.

 

Link: 

 

 

Side note: I REALLY like the Warden's armor in that video...

[Nefla]

If you look at it in a certain light, despite Morgan having sex with Alister, it's actually the Warden that's raping him if she's the one that's forcing him to do it. I never romanced him, so I'm not 100% on how the scene plays out, but isn't there an option to tell him he's doing it...wait. Let me find it on YouTube...

 

 

 

Okay, yeah, it's absolutely rape. If you haven't romanced him, you cannot convince him to do it. If you did, you literally say to him, "If you loved me you would do this" and only then does he agree, after quipping that he now has to live his life knowing that he's completely wrapped around your finger. In the non romance version, he makes it very clear that he would rather die fighting the Archdemon than go through with this.

 

Link: 

 

 

Side note: I REALLY like the Warden's armor in that video...

I was like "why is Saskia In DA:O?"

 

Yeah I didn't like the rapey-ness of the DR, I mean imagine the uproar if the genders had been reversed, a sly secretive mage guy tells a shy, akward, goofy possibly virgin girl that the only way she and her friend (or lover) can live is if he impregnates her with a sex ritual baby which once born he will steal away in the night and she will never see either of them again.

 

You could convince him to do the DR as a male warden though. (I assume he's always hardened in my playthroughs since I've never gotten this strong of a reaction from him)

[thehomeworld]

In defense of most  many shooters, historically most women haven't been allowed to serve in combat-related specialities even when they could serve as soldiers. That is true even today in most modern Western militaries.

 

Is the shooter set in an era (or in a modern army) where woman aren't in the infantry? I think it would be unfair to criticize the game for a lack of female characters in that case, if their inclusion compromises accuracy or creates an anachronism.

 

That isn't to say that there can't be female soldiers in shooters of course. There is no one reason why they couldn't or shouldn't be in shooters with a futuristic setting, or in shooters with a modern feel that have more in common with an episode of 24 than say, Zero Dark Thirty. Likewise there is no reason why you couldn't have female soldiers in some historical settings, like say for example the Soviet perspective during the Second World War or the IDF in the 1980s.

 

The way you place a woman in an era shooter that wasn't "historically known" for such is either you can find women of the era who went against the grain of social norms and base it loosly around her (or them) or  claim test! Basically this woman (or if they want make a whole darn unit!) are a testing ground for viability to see if they can even have women do this job and succseed like the Tuskegee Experiment. Women had roles beyond nurses in WW2 http://www.express.c...-course-of-WWII  , http://womenshistory...tion/a/wasp.htm  its just not popular to mention them or think about them like all the women soilders who fought in the civil war and then just went home and assumed their former roles as laundry maides, house wives, and didn't do anything to gain their earned benifits. We have at least 4 dead female soilders here in Gettysburg and the only two that survived have been lost no one tracked them down. That's the thing no one wanted to. 

 

Games are fantasy and they can easily make up reasons why this woman or these women are in this world at this time its just devs don't want to I also find it stupid especially for new titles a woman heroine needs justification for her existance and yet the male hero doesn't no matter what the subject save babysitting or cooking. The game doesn't even need to end with it saying hey becasue you did everything the brass asked you gals are now an offical unit they could've been sidelined making a different ending becasue politics so long as they make it clear the happy ending is optional but a good unique story would be gained.

 

EDIT: I didn't even talk about my other options! You can also get a woman into a world era many consider mans time by having secret orders that don't subscribe to societal norms like so long as you do what the order says we'll look out for you or craft her from scratch! Like I want a woman in this era so she decided to be (insert hero proffession here) so then think about it and go if a woman did this and we know she'd have to go thorugh tons of critique and issues socially at least to do this job so what persona does she have at the end of that road to get her to be our hero? She may not be teen bubble fest here she might turn out more like Tess but so what she'll (hopefully) be intresting and 3D and give the world a new persepective.

[HuldraDancer]

I've done the DR a few times but it does give me a creepy feeling when I'm not playing as a male Warden since it feels like I'm pimping out Alistair or Loghain. I still do it if it makes sense for my character but still gives me a slimy feeling.

 

as for rape being used as a threat (I apologize if this conversation was done I merely skimmed some pages) most of rape threats I got were online one I remember quite clearly because I was 12 at the time and I was threatened to be beaten and raped over the fact that someone did not like my character's looks. I have yet to experience anything as horrible as rape threats to my face outside of being online the closest I've come to is sexual harassment such as being felt up in a public pool or store without a word to me, most of these while I was younger though I imagine the reason it does not happen to me as much is because I do not go out hardly any more I rather not go out and deal with people who can't keep their hands to themselves or people telling me I need to be bent over and f**ked in order to 'deb*tch' me. My sympathies to anyone whose had to go through rape threats or rape its a horrible experience that no one should have to go through.

[RevilFox]

I was like "why is Saskia In DA:O?"

 

Yeah I didn't like the rapey-ness of the DR, I mean imagine the uproar if the genders had been reversed, a sly secretive mage guy tells a shy, akward, goofy possibly virgin girl that the only way she and her friend (or lover) can live is if he impregnates her with a sex ritual baby which once born he will steal away in the night and she will never see either of them again.

 

You could convince him to do the DR as a male warden though. (I assume he's always hardened in my playthroughs since I've never gotten this strong of a reaction from him)

You're right, I've played through as a female Warden who romanced Liliana and I was able to convince him. You must be able to do it if he's hardened. 

[Stelae]

Yes, she claimed femshep was othered and treated as less than because she had "fem" as a qualifier, claiming that manshep was only referred to as Shepard when if she actually knew anything about the game she'd know it's ALWAYS just "Shepard" in game and it's either femshep, manshep, or sheploo (or again Shepard for any of those 3) everyone gets a qualifier. If she actually knew the series, she'd have brought up the fact that femshep wasn't advertised until the last game, an actual valid point. She's said in some of her lectures that she doesn't like video games and she's not a gamer. She uses footage from other people's lets plays without permission (which she wouldn't need to do if she actually bought and played all the games she said she would). She does things like criticizing Resident Evil 5 for having to fight a female character (Jill) to get a mind control thing off her because it makes her a "euthanized damsel" or something like that and cuts the footage to make it look like a guy beating on a poor defenseless woman, when it's a guy and a girl trying to remove a device without killing her. This kind of scenario is common for male characters as well (fighting a mind controlled character) there's nothing sexist about it but she has to be as inflammatory as possible so she can get more publicity and money.

To be fair, she was talking as much about the media and marketing for Mass Effect -- male cover image, male Shep in the advertising, male coverage in reviews -- in an Episode devoted to the phenomenon of "Ms. Male character."  She did make the point that Jennifer Hale's acting is widely considered superior and that as the series went on, FemShep was at least acknowledged, but blokeShep was still seen as the default (her fans felt the need to qualify her as Fem, after all, to differentiate her from the supposed default), even though gender options were even in the actual game and differences in character were the result of player-choice rather than gender based. 

 

Given, in the olden days of this thread, some people were saying they came late to ME because they didn't know it was possible to be a female Shepard, I think she is more right than wrong on that, although we have nicknames for blokeShep these days as well. 

 

As to her "not being a gamer" that's a 5 year old quote taken out of context - she didn't want to play games where you're just blowing people's heads off.  Who knows what she thinks 5 years later, or of games where there's more to it than ready, aim, fire?   Also, even if she were not a gamer, I write about a 15th century Italian noblewoman, but I'm not from the 15th century, Italian, or any sort of noblewoman.  No one has ever suggested I am therefore not qualified to say the things I say.   If games are to be taken seriously as an art form, then social commentary has to come from a broader base than just the afficionados.  Art critics are not all artists. 

 

And using other people's streams is, I think,  the equivalent of me using a quote out of someone else's article on 15th century writing in an article I'm working on.  It doesn't mean she hasn't played the games, but you're right; she should differentiate between footage that comes from her and footage that comes from someone else.  That's how academic crit works; you build on the work of others.  You show patterns and repeated motifs, using the best evidence available. That's not cherry-picking; it's building a case. You show similarities over time (that's why some of the examples are old) of these patterns, to show that what was once an original idea has become a tired trope. 

 

I don't think she always gets it 100% right, but I think she's always thought provoking. 

[Brass_Buckles]

Yeah, here's the thing, what little I've seen of Sarkeesian, I might not agree with her 100% on all the things ever.  For instance, I don't think every instance of a sexy female character is necessarily bad--the problem is when she's nothing more than eye candy to presumed straight males, vs. her actually being a character.  Yeah, I'm not a big fan of skimpy clothing regardless, but I can shrug my shoulders at it if the character has a personality, like Isabella (who should, in my opinion, be wearing light armor rather than just clothing because she gets in knife fights, but at least she's not JUST there for eye candy).

 

But, whether I agree with her opinions or not, I'm not going to sit around and bash her and say she's all about the money.  Even if she is, she's still pointing out problematic areas in video games that no one else might.  And, well, it's work.  She's spending her time doing this research and putting together these videos.  Why shouldn't she be paid for it?  Should news anchors and talk show hosts also not be paid?  They don't always give a 100% neutral and unbiased opinion, either (surprise!).

 

I think the point I'm making here is that whether you agree with anything or everything she says or not, calling her character into question and dragging her through the mud is a pretty ugly thing to do.  All she's doing is making some videos on Youtube.  Again, even if she isn't 100% spot-on, she's calling attention to a problem that actually exists--and she's gotten death threats, rape threats, and other horrible things said and done to her solely because of it.  As someone who values free speech, and thinks that yes, plenty of video games are problematic in regard to how they treat women and the LGBT community, I think we'd be better off directing our venom at those sorts of people than at Sarkeesian, even if there are times when she may be outright wrong about some things.

[Steelcan]

I'm surprised the Vega/Shepard situation in Citadel DLC hasn't come up in this line of discussion

[Nefla]

Yeah, here's the thing, what little I've seen of Sarkeesian, I might not agree with her 100% on all the things ever.  For instance, I don't think every instance of a sexy female character is necessarily bad--the problem is when she's nothing more than eye candy to presumed straight males, vs. her actually being a character.  Yeah, I'm not a big fan of skimpy clothing regardless, but I can shrug my shoulders at it if the character has a personality, like Isabella (who should, in my opinion, be wearing light armor rather than just clothing because she gets in knife fights, but at least she's not JUST there for eye candy).

 

But, whether I agree with her opinions or not, I'm not going to sit around and bash her and say she's all about the money.  Even if she is, she's still pointing out problematic areas in video games that no one else might.  And, well, it's work.  She's spending her time doing this research and putting together these videos.  Why shouldn't she be paid for it?  Should news anchors and talk show hosts also not be paid?  They don't always give a 100% neutral and unbiased opinion, either (surprise!).

 

I think the point I'm making here is that whether you agree with anything or everything she says or not, calling her character into question and dragging her through the mud is a pretty ugly thing to do.  All she's doing is making some videos on Youtube.  Again, even if she isn't 100% spot-on, she's calling attention to a problem that actually exists--and she's gotten death threats, rape threats, and other horrible things said and done to her solely because of it.  As someone who values free speech, and thinks that yes, plenty of video games are problematic in regard to how they treat women and the LGBT community, I think we'd be better off directing our venom at those sorts of people than at Sarkeesian, even if there are times when she may be outright wrong about some things.

Are you talking about me, or the people making death threats? I think I have a right to disagree with her, think her videos are bad in that she's sensationalist, intentionally misleading and poorly informed on the subject matter. I think those are all reasonable criticisms and I also feel like she gives female gamers a bad name (though the weirdos harassing her give male gamers an even worse one).

 

I can't use my free speech to question her character and motivations but she can misrepresent, and malign game companies and blatantly accuse them of misogyny?

[Karach_Blade]

I'd like to add to this that, in fact, men can be raped, and male rape victims do not even necessarily have to be victims of other men.  Women can, do, and have raped men, whether it be taking advantage while a man is too drunk to consent, or any other situation.  Physical arousal does not equal consent.

 

It means a lot have you say that. I'm a gay transman who was molested by a female student when I was twelve and nearly raped, so it really upsets me when the fact that guys can have this happen to them is made a joke or downplayed as "are you sure you didn't want it?", No, I didn't want this girl to try and force herself on me. I got away, thankfully, but it's always pissed me off that rape is seen as the go-to "trauma" thrown at female characters. Speaking as someone raised female as well as speaking as a transman, I'm pissed about it on both fronts. I remember in DA2 Anders as well as an NPC both hinted that neither gender was spared from such things in the Circles, and taking into the consideration that the dialogue with Danarious is heavily implying Fenris was used in that way so at least it's acknowledged that it does happen.

[Brass_Buckles]

Are you talking about me, or the people making death threats? I think I have a right to disagree with her, think her videos are bad in that she's sensationalist, intentionally misleading and poorly informed on the subject matter. I think those are all reasonable criticisms and I also feel like she gives female gamers a bad name (though the weirdos harassing her give male gamers an even worse one).

 

I can't use my free speech to question her character and motivations but she can misrepresent, and malign game companies and blatantly accuse them of misogyny?

 

I think you have the right to disagree, but I don't like that you're calling her character into question saying she only does it for the money--slander/libel is not free protected speech.  There's no way to know that for sure, and again, even if she is... news anchors also get paid, and they are biased, and I'm sure plenty of them only do it for money--but that doesn't mean that what they do is not important work.  I don't agree 100% with everything Sarkeesian says (or everything most people say, really), but I don't call their motives into suspicion, either.

 

As for what I'm talking about in terms of who to direct venom at, that's regarding the people making death and rape threats and revealing her real life address over the Internet.  Someone just mouthing off about her isn't as big of a concern, except that it's not a nice thing to do when you can't prove that her motives are only to stir the hornets' nest or make money.

 

I'm sort of like this in real life:  Even if I have reason to suspect you're not such a great person, unless I outright KNOW it, I try not to assume the worst of you.  Nefla, I agree with you on a lot of things, but I won't agree with you on this one--I interpret the videos I've seen regarding Shepard etc. differently than you apparently have, and I don't know Sarkeesian personally to say she's only about making money.  So, even if I question something I've seen or heard from her, I won't attack her character; I will only criticize what I've seen that I don't agree with.  And I probably won't even do that publicly, if only because she's been threatened, attacked, and harassed over things like that more than enough.

[Ryzaki]

Not just hinted, Alain pretty much said outright a templar was raping him.

 

Yeah man I ugh I take great pleasure in killing that dude now.

 

I think he has a pretty smarmy remark towards female mage Hawke too.

[Bugsie]

I think it's hard to critique her stuff now because it gets lost amongst rampant toxicity.

Thanks underground internet sewer for bubbling to the surface and spewing your crap everywhere!

[Nefla]

I think you have the right to disagree, but I don't like that you're calling her character into question saying she only does it for the money--slander/libel is not free protected speech.  There's no way to know that for sure, and again, even if she is... news anchors also get paid, and they are biased, and I'm sure plenty of them only do it for money--but that doesn't mean that what they do is not important work.  I don't agree 100% with everything Sarkeesian says (or everything most people say, really), but I don't call their motives into suspicion, either.

 

As for what I'm talking about in terms of who to direct venom at, that's regarding the people making death and rape threats and revealing her real life address over the Internet.  Someone just mouthing off about her isn't as big of a concern, except that it's not a nice thing to do when you can't prove that her motives are only to stir the hornets' nest or make money.

 

I'm sort of like this in real life:  Even if I have reason to suspect you're not such a great person, unless I outright KNOW it, I try not to assume the worst of you.  Nefla, I agree with you on a lot of things, but I won't agree with you on this one--I interpret the videos I've seen regarding Shepard etc. differently than you apparently have, and I don't know Sarkeesian personally to say she's only about making money.  So, even if I question something I've seen or heard from her, I won't attack her character; I will only criticize what I've seen that I don't agree with.  And I probably won't even do that publicly, if only because she's been threatened, attacked, and harassed over things like that more than enough.

We'll have to agree to disagree on our assessments of her character, but in the interests of not wanting to start drama or further offend/upset anyone I'll shut up about it

[Brass_Buckles]

We'll have to agree to disagree on our assessments of her character, but in the interests of not wanting to start drama or further offend/upset anyone I'll shut up about it

 

Well, just so you know I'm not criticizing you, just because I disagree with you on one thing. We're still good, right? 

[Nefla]

Well, just so you know I'm not criticizing you, just because I disagree with you on one thing. We're still good, right? 

Most definitely

[Brass_Buckles]

I think it's hard to critique her stuff now because it gets lost amongst rampant toxicity.

Thanks underground internet sewer for bubbling to the surface and spewing your crap everywhere!

 

Yeah, this exactly.  Actually I feel uncomfortable criticizing or disagreeing openly with a lot of feminists out there, because I know what kind of horrible toxic comments they're dealing with on a daily basis, and I also know I could easily be confused for one of those people.  I don't always agree with everything a person says, but I would much rather lurk than give the monsters more fodder, or possibly help tip someone into depression.  At some point it's probably hard to tell a person who's just saying, "I think you have some good points, but I disagree with you here, here, and here--and this is why," as opposed to someone who's saying, "Well, you're wrong about this, and this, and this, and you deserve to die."  The latter often starts out looking like the former, until you engage in actual conversation with them.

[aTigerslunch]

I didn't know Quinn existed till it was mentioned in this thread to be honest.  I didn't know the other lady did either. 

[Ryzaki]

All I heard was the insanity over depression quest. I mean I didn't like it and thought it was bleh at best but the sheer vitriol that was being spread about it and its creator just hit laughable levels. 

[Bugsie]

All I heard was the insanity over depression quest. I mean I didn't like it and thought it was bleh at best but the sheer vitriol that was being spread about it and its creator just hit laughable levels. 

Yeah it seems rather over the top, I am just imagining all the rage, people frothing at the mouth in front of their screens screaming and such.

 

Then I remember this...

 

[phantomrachie]

All I will say about TW2 is that Triss > any female companion BioWare has written

 

because you got to see her breasts? Triss has no role in the Witcher other than to be a damsel in distress. Compare that to the well rounded women with backgrounds and plot relevance in most BioWare games and there is no competition. 

[aTigerslunch]

Crapolay.....ran out of likes.   I like your post phantomrachie.