9318 réponses à ce sujet

[Allan Schumacher]

Any kind of gaming is relevant to a discussion on gaming!

 

Someone who plays on the Nintendo (which is awesome) is not less of a gamer than someone who plays on PS4.

 

All gamers are constantly looking for new games. Someone who plays mobile games is a gamer.

 

You can't possibly be seriously discounting all of these people?

 

I think it's still important to recognize who plays what types of games.  I could market DAI to my Mom and Dad, and I doubt either of them would be interested, all the one of them does play a lot of games (my Mom).

 

I think it's tricky because I think it's too convenient for people to dismiss women numbers in gaming because the data doesn't break that down enough.  Even then, if the numbers is 25%, I still don't consider that a trivial number.

 

 

So would I, it's crazy how it's 2014 and gaming is lagging so far behind socially. Women are generally portrayed as damsels or sex objects, lesbians are butch psychos (or male fanservice) gay men are clownish weirdos, black guys are pimps and thugs and every other race pretty much doesn't exist.

 

Is it really?  It sounds like there's still large problems in other forums of entertainment, at least from what little I have done.

 

I do agree that gaming is starting to outgrow it's "boys for toys" roots that was heavily influenced back in the mid 80s and beyond when the consoles came crashing onto the scene.

[Spirit Keeper]

So would I, it's crazy how it's 2014 and gaming is lagging so far behind socially. Women are generally portrayed as damsels or sex objects, lesbians are butch psychos (or male fanservice) gay men are clownish weirdos, black guys are pimps and thugs and every other race pretty much doesn't exist.

The damsel part makes sense. Gaming of yonder has such limited memory that stories couldn't be written into games like they are now. Since gaming was back then, marketed towards young men, the 'rescue the pretty girl' trope was just easy to use. Sadly companies still use this today despite having the memory to do otherwise. Having it every now and then for the sake of variety is fine but it's just sooo overused goddamnit >_<

[Lady Nuggins]

I'd like to see some non-stereotyped gay and bi representation in marketing. You know, just putting that out there to if we are talking about equality.

 

Man, wouldn't that be great?  I'm not sure where or how they could work that into marketing, but I'm sure it can happen somehow.  At the very least, I'm glad they steered away from featuring a male protagonist + major female character on the cover, like they did with Origins, because it sort of implied that she was the primary, or only, love interest, to an obviously male protag.

[Nefla]

If someone today were to sign up for BSN and post about how they are outraged that they cannot play a dwarf in DA:I people would be very quick to point out that they in fact can.

 

It is their fault for not being aware of all the options in the game.

 

 

Perhaps a better job can be done of moving away from a "default" character, but that doesn't excuse ignorance about all the options available.

It's not the women on the BSN that don't know you can play as a woman or that it isn't a generic hack n slash, or that it has all the things we like in a game, movie, book, or tv series. It's the women out there who will never know because the marketing hides these things and puts a slant on everything that makes it look generic, male centric, etc...Many of us (female posters) got into BioWare games because a friend or relative pressed some initial game into our hands and despite the games being portrayed as dudebro shooters/hack n slash games we trusted their recommendation and were glad of it. Most women out there wont get that chance and that's a crying shame because the game itself is already something they would love if only the marketing team would allow it to be shown.

[Spirit Keeper]

Man, wouldn't that be great?  I'm not sure where or how they could work that into marketing, but I'm sure it can happen somehow.  At the very least, I'm glad they steered away from featuring a male protagonist + major female character on the cover, like they did with Origins, because it sort of implied that she was the primary, or only, love interest, to an obviously male protag.

DA2 and ME1 showed a male protag kissing an opposite gendered character romantically. Doing that but s/s is a start I suppose.

[Mihura]

If someone today were to sign up for BSN and post about how they are outraged that they cannot play a dwarf in DA:I people would be very quick to point out that they in fact can.

 

It is their fault for not being aware of all the options in the game.

 

 

Perhaps a better job can be done of moving away from a "default" character, but that doesn't excuse ignorance about all the options available.

 

Not it is not, for example in the facebook page someone was in an outrage, that this game was gonna to be a fail again because they could not play other races.

 

This person uses facebook to get news from the game, they are an active consumer. Not everyone comes to the forums or have the time to go to tumblr, twitter,..etc to ask questions and interact with people. 

 

It is the marketing team job to inform the casual consumer about this kind of things, if the active one does not even know, than something is wrong. 

[Allan Schumacher]

If someone today were to sign up for BSN and post about how they are outraged that they cannot play a dwarf in DA:I people would be very quick to point out that they in fact can.

 

It is their fault for not being aware of all the options in the game.

 

 

Perhaps a better job can be done of moving away from a "default" character, but that doesn't excuse ignorance about all the options available.

 

I'm of the opinion that most people don't even go onto game forums.  I think if we restrict our gaming audience to "those that have the interest in going onto game forums" we start to shoot ourselves in the foot.

 

Further, it's also possible that people don't really frequent game forums of companies of games they have not yet played.  I don't consider it "laziness" I consider it a "fact of life" of selling games to people.  In fact, most people that buy our game simply won't finish it.  Note that this actually doesn't tell us anything more than "they didn't finish the game."  It doesn't tell us "did they like it" even though I could make logical conclusions about whether or not they enjoyed it.

[Steelcan]

Funny, I am getting that exact impression from you.  I have explained at length my side of it, you actively ignore most of what I post, you demand statistics and then ignore those.

And you put words into my mouth and take my argument far beyond what I wrote.

[Spirit Keeper]

Not it is not, for example in the facebook page someone was in an outrage, that this is game was gonna to be a fail again because they could not play other races.

 

This person uses facebook to get news from the game, they are an active consumer. Not everyone comes to the forums or as the time to go to tumblr, twitter to ask questions and follow people. 

 

It is the marketing team job to inform the casual consumer about this kind of things, if they do not know and need to come here for information than something is wrong. 

Very true, but I will point about NotAlwaysRight.com. Some people can make ignorance into an art form.

[Mes]

Hey here's a thought - why market only to the people who we classify as gamers? Why not market to human beings in general looking for entertainment?

 

We were all non-gamers at one point in our lives. I don't know about you, but I didn't come out of the womb holding a controller.

 

Marketing needs to be expanded. There are a lot of human beings on the planet willing to spend money, men and women included.

 

And let's not forget that there are men out there who would genuinely be interested seeing a woman in a trailer, too. It's not "just us women" who want this.

 

The damsel part makes sense. Gaming of yonder has such limited memory that stories couldn't be written into games like they are now. Since gaming was back then, marketed towards young men, the 'rescue the pretty girl' trope was just easy to use. Sadly companies still use this today despite having the memory to do otherwise. Having it every now and then for the sake of variety is fine but it's just sooo overused goddamnit >_<

 

Can I just say one of my fantasies is to some day see a movie or play a game where a pretty male is the damsel in distress and the strong, capable woman has to rescue him? And then they marry? Yeah.

[Steelcan]

I'm of the opinion that most people don't even go onto game forums.  I think if we restrict our gaming audience to "those that have the interest in going onto game forums" we start to shoot ourselves in the foot.

 

Further, it's also possible that people don't really frequent game forums of companies of games they have not yet played.  I don't consider it "laziness" I consider it a "fact of life" of selling games to people.  In fact, most people that buy our game simply won't finish it.  Note that this actually doesn't tell us anything more than "they didn't finish the game."  It doesn't tell us "did they like it" even though I could make logical conclusions about whether or not they enjoyed it.

In which case the advertising needs to appeal to lowest common denominator in order to get as wide an appeal as possible on a marketing budget.  The perception today is that straight, white, relatively young, male's dominate the market and this group should be advertised to.

 

That demographic is clearly not the only one of significant size, but I am willing to bet that it is still the single largest individual group

[Nefla]

In which case the advertising needs to appeal to lowest common denominator in order to get as wide an appeal as possible on a marketing budget.  The perception today is that straight, white, relatively young, male's dominate the market and this group should be advertised to.

But should they be the only ones advertised to? If you can show action and combat but also show drama and romance, and show that you have a choice of race and gender, that catches the attention of a lot of different groups and not just one. It also doesn't alienate potential customers.

[Bugsie]

I never said they shouldn't be marketed to at all, if I did, please point it out and I will edit it immediately.

 

All I am saying right now is that marketing should reflect the realities of the demographics of people who play the game, and that consumers should educate themselves on all the options available in a game before arriving at a conclusion about the game's options.

And I say why would a game developer miss out on marketing opportunities that would sell more games and open the market to new players whilst having little impact on their current demographic?  I'd like to know what company solely limits their marketing to current demographics and haven't at least once tried to expand on it to areas outside it's majority purchasers. 

[Mihura]

In which case the advertising needs to appeal to lowest common denominator in order to get as wide an appeal as possible on a marketing budget.  The perception today is that straight, white, relatively young, male's dominate the market and this group should be advertised to.

 

That demographic is clearly not the only one of significant size, but I am willing to bet that it is still the single largest individual group

 

If you think that way you are going to lose money, Nintendo actually won big bucks with the Wii because they were bold enough to acknowledge that everyone could be a gamer. So no that is the "poor option" that does not take you anywhere. If white straight males already buy the game, why no try to get others "into the game".

[Steelcan]

But should they be the only ones advertised to? If you can show action and combat but also show drama and romance, and show that you have a choice of race and gender, that catches the attention of a lot of different groups and not just one. It also doesn't alienate potential customers.

I'm not saying they should be the only one's advertised to, I'm saying they are the one's advertised to because of our perceptions of who gamers are as a whole (no matter how flawed that assumption is) and because they make up the single largest demographic of gamers (by no means the only one or even the only significantly large one)

 

Furthermore creating all of these different trailers, posters, usw. could easily make the marketing campaign unfocused and lack a clear driving force, which is usually necessary to sell a product, too many different things being thrown at a consumer at once is a bad thing.

[Lady Nuggins]

And you put words into my mouth and take my argument far beyond what I wrote.

 

If I have misinterpreted something that you wrote, then please explain it further.  I tried to discuss it on your terms--using ONLY the statistics that you think are relevant, but you still won't actually discuss it, even in those terms.  I think you are just trying to be contrary, and that is why I am frustrated.

[Spirit Keeper]

My own 2 cents. Regardless of the statistics, every person of any race, gender (or lack of), sexuality (or lack of) etc etc, should get representation in all media (within the correct context of course). Not because of 'what the statistics say omg' but just be be inclusive and...basic courtesy/decency. 

 

For bioware games where you can choose gender, skin colour, sexuality etc. Have trailers showing a gay man, a black women etc.

[efd731]

I can predict the future like the seer in Vikings, so my prediction is that bioware is gonna to release in game screens or one trailer with F!Inquisitor next month or during September.

The Special One as spoken.

You could've just said that you wanted Cullen and anders to be mandatory party members (in a party of two) and I still would've upvoted for the Vikings bit.

[Steelcan]

And I say why would a game developer miss out on marketing opportunities that would sell more games and open the market to new players whilst having little impact on their current demographic?  I'd like to know what company solely limits their marketing to current demographics and haven't at least once tried to expand on it to areas outside it's majority purchasers. 

Because its a riskier marketing strategy.

 

AAA games are already a huge money sink with profit margins nowhere near as large as many people think they are.

 

 

For all I know such a marketing strategy could pay dividends for the company brave enough to go out on the limb, but companies tend to be rather conservative when it comes to spending money on an unsure project.  There is always the risk that the game will bomb despite being well made and well crafted (see Kingdoms of Amalur)

[efd731]

Also, I think that people are being slightly hypocritical. I'd love to see a trailer showing off the depths of the character creation system, just because that's a cool thing to see. But when I see people saying (horribly paraphrased) "check your priveledge dudebro" I feel confused. I mean, there are people who are sayin they won't play the game because Minquisitor is the trailer character.....but not being comfortable with playing as another sexuality/gender is Superbad? Have I missed something?

[Nefla]

I'm not saying they should be the only one's advertised to, I'm saying they are the one's advertised to because of our perceptions of who gamers are as a whole (no matter how flawed that assumption is) and because they make up the single largest demographic of gamers (by no means the only one or even the only significantly large one)

 

Furthermore creating all of these different trailers, posters, usw. could easily make the marketing campaign unfocused and lack a clear driving force, which is usually necessary to sell a product, too many different things being thrown at a consumer at once is a bad thing.

When everyone is up in arms at each other it's easy to become defensive and miss parts of what is being said, only remembering the more aggressive things but all any of us are saying as that we want to be included in the marketing. Not take over, not replace the existing male, but be included. Also I didn't mean those elements should be in their own exclusive trailers/posters/whatever, all of those elements could be easily combined into one trailer, etc...It would be appealing to a larger audience and do a better job of being memorable than 2 minutes of sword fights and explosions.

[Mes]

Because its a riskier marketing strategy.

 

 

Marketing to more people is not risky, though I've heard this excuse several times before.

 

Replacing all male Inquisitors/Shepards with female ones in marketing may be risky.

 

But having the trailers or what have you be more balanced? How is that risky?

 

Are you saying a bunch of male gamers would turn their eyes away in disgust and refuse to buy a Bioware game that dared advertise a female?

 

If that's so, do we really even care about people with that kind of mentality?

[Stelae]

In which case the advertising needs to appeal to lowest common denominator in order to get as wide an appeal as possible on a marketing budget.  The perception today is that straight, white, relatively young, male's dominate the market and this group should be advertised to.

 

That demographic is clearly not the only one of significant size, but I am willing to bet that it is still the single largest individual group

Whose perception?  Not the ESA's, which I quoted above.  Not any of the industry professionals I've spoken to.

 

Since you haven't bothered to read it, let me pull out the statistics for you.  I'm sure you'll find some way to gainsay them, but what the hell.

 

Of the people who most frequently buy games:45% are women.

Average gamer age: 30 and rising

 

Gamers by age group:

 

32% under 18 years

32% 18-35 years

36% 36+ years

 

Yes, marketers are gunshy about targeting anyone who isn't male, and 18-24.  No one ever said they were smart.  So they are pouring all their efforts into a relatively small segment of the market, which is already overcrowded.  But the smart money knows that the current audience is getting older and more diverse, And the very smart money knows that people over 30 have a lot more disposable income than people just starting out in life. 

 

No one is suggesting that men and boys shouldn't be marketed to.  But there's a lot more bang-for-buck, in terms of expanding your market share, in marketing to the people other games ignore.

[Spirit Keeper]

Also, I think that people are being slightly hypocritical. I'd love to see a trailer showing off the depths of the character creation system, just because that's a cool thing to see. But when I see people saying (horribly paraphrased) "check your priveledge dudebro" I feel confused. I mean, there are people who are sayin they won't play the game because Minquisitor is the trailer character.....but not being comfortable with playing as another sexuality/gender is Superbad? Have I missed something?

When people attempt to use 'privilege' it comes across as a shaming tactic to silence opposing opinions rather than have an honest discussion. It also reminds me of this:

[Steelcan]

When everyone is up in arms at each other it's easy to become defensive and miss parts of what is being said, only remembering the more aggressive things but all any of us are saying as that we want to be included in the marketing. Not take over, not replace the existing male, but be included. Also I didn't mean those elements should be in their own exclusive trailers/posters/whatever, all of those elements could be easily combined into one trailer, etc...It would be appealing to a larger audience and do a better job of being memorable than 2 minutes of sword fights and explosions.

I agree, but an unfocused trailer that leaves a consumer wondering what they just saw isn't what you want to go for.

 

And trailers don't have to be memorable to be effective