Yeah that probably hasn't happened in SC since the last Ice Age
. The winters recently have been milder but when I was young it was -20 or colder and wet hair would freeze, water poured on the ground would freeze as soon as it hit the ground. In Fairbanks the record cold was around -70 and nearer the arctic circle it's been even colder than that.
Trying to expand your demographic is an unsafe strategy? Funny, because I thought that's how businesses ultimately succeed.
it varies from business to business
I don't see Rolex getting into the market for watches you buy at Wal-Mart, or James Bond films becoming Rom-coms
it varies from business to business
I don't see Rolex getting into the market for watches you buy at Wal-Mart, or James Bond films becoming Rom-coms
Okay here you go again - comparing marketing to women to Wal-mart and Rom-coms. Again showing your colors.
When I called you out on it in your other post (ice cream and winter), you deflected my comment and refused to elaborate.
If you're going to say stuff like this, I'd appreciate an actual explanation as to why you think the female gender is such a ridiculous and odd group to pour marketing resources into.
it varies from business to business
I don't see Rolex getting into the market for watches you buy at Wal-Mart, or James Bond films becoming Rom-coms
Dragon Age doesn't have that kind of popularity yet, and if it does it will be because of its' inclusivity which is one of its best features. 
BioWare already makes a product that appeals to women, why not show this?
I'm gonna make one last post before I log off
I think somewhere down the line in discussion it was made unclear what my personal position is on the issue.
I am of the opinion that more advertising should go to the different kinds of Inquisitor that there will be, showing off the CC, usw. I think I may have been caught up in "Devil's advocate" a bit too much.
cheers
Someone's got to do it right?I'm gonna make one last post before I log off
I think somewhere down the line in discussion it was made unclear what my personal position is on the issue.
I am of the opinion that more advertising should go to the different kinds of Inquisitor that there will be, showing off the CC, usw. I think I may have been caught up in "Devil's advocate" a bit too much.
cheers
Someone's got to do it right?
If you're implication is "someone needs to Devil's Advocate" then I'd actually wager no. Devil's Advocacy is a tricky thing and it can be all too easy to get caught up in now arguing the position (and it coming across as it being your own position) because of the human brain having a strong inclination to defend itself from being wrong.
(Pleasant reading IMO: http://www.cracked.c...-you-think.html though I'd prefer comments about this to come as PMs than to derail the topic further)
ok, actual last post
read into my word choice as much as you want, the fact is marketing is marketing, and in that people are just potential dollars, my comparions may vex you, but you are reading too deeply into my intent
Lol. 
I'm trying to be reasonable here. You've yet again said something pretty odd, and then when I called you out on it you deflect it by saying I'm reading too much into it rather than actually explaining yourself in a more detailed fashion.
If you think someone is misinterpreting your posts, it'd be best to give another shot at explanation... rather than simply telling the person they're misinterpreting them.
I knew what you was trying to say Steel
it varies from business to business
I don't see Rolex getting into the market for watches you buy at Wal-Mart, or James Bond films becoming Rom-coms
Yes, it does. But so? If one game is successful and another fails to succeed it's not always down to the marketing aspect.
So by your definition you don't seriously see Bioware or any game company getting into the business of marketing to women, even if women are actually interested and are a a potential demographic? You're arguments and analogies are incredibly poor, bordering on strawman.
Lol.
If you think someone is misinterpreting your posts, it'd be best to give another shot at explanation... rather than simply telling the person they're misinterpreting them.
A lot of male gamers don't want to give up what has pretty much been their exclusive playground for the last 30 years. They say things like "if you don't want to play a game because you have to play a male then you're shallow and not a real gamer" or accuse anyone who wants variety or inclusivity of having a militant agenda that will get rid of any straight white male protagonists in games. It's really not so bad guys. Movies, books, tv, music, magazines, etc...have all catered to either men or women or both for a very long time and the world hasn't become a militant Female ruled society where men are castrated and enslaved. Dragon Age is a series women like, women should know about it too so they can buy it.
I knew what you was trying to say Steel
What I saw him argue when he played devils advocate was
1. Becaude demographics, more male players means other potential demographics should be ignored
2. Because business, poor marketing is the ONLY reason games fail
3. Catering to a wider demographic dilutes focussed marketing
4. Marketing to women can be compared to marketing icecream in Alaska and Rolex watches in Walmart.
He should have stayed with his argument of "I am of the opinion that more advertising should go to the different kinds of Inquisitor that there will be, showing off the CC" is actually more reasoned base for his argument against including more marketing to women than the spurious ones he offered as devils advocate.
Trying to expand your demographic is an unsafe strategy? Funny, because I thought that's how businesses ultimately succeed.
Just to note, I suspect (as in, I can't say for certain) that part of the problem in gaming marketing is that it's a big boat that is slow to turn.
There's increasingly more data that shows that, well, old data may not be fair (i.e. looking at a game that featured more female presence that sold poorly and concluding that THAT is why the game sold poorly, as opposed to other measurements), but there's also going to be comfort/safety with the status quo, even if I don't like it and even if it can frustrate me as well.
But it's easier for me to say this because ultimately hundreds of jobs don't rely on my decision being the correct one. I'd like to think that I'd be just as "stick to my guns" about it as I am right now, but I could possibly have different perspectives if I was the studio GM or anything like that.
As an aside, I disagree that "businesses ultimately succeed" by expanding their demographic. I think that it's one way to grow, and I think that this sort of stuff is a good way for BioWare (and EA) to grow towards, but I also know products and games that succeed by simply delivering on what their target audience wants. Many Kickstarter projects do just this, and a game like Eve Online is very successful by focusing specifically on what their audience wants, rather than trying to lure me into the game experience.
What I saw him argue when he played devils advocate was
1. Becaude demographics, more male players means other potential demographics should be ignored
2. Because business, poor marketing is the ONLY reason games fail
3. Catering to a wider demographic dilutes focussed marketing
4. Marketing to women can be compared to marketing icecream in Alaska and Rolex watches in Walmart.
He should have stayed with his argument of "I am of the opinion that more advertising should go to the different kinds of Inquisitor that there will be, showing off the CC" is actually more reasoned base for his argument against including more marketing to women than the spurious ones he offered as devils advocate.
It seems that you're saying "He should have gone with the argument that falls more in line with mine" which seems like a fairly obvious position to me.
His attempt at Devil's Advocacy was to try to thought experiment reasons for why this process may not happen, certainly as quickly as we may like. Unfortunately such decisions don't rely on you (nor even me). Just know that it's something that I escalate and I know that there are others at BioWare that feel the same way, so hopefully we'll get inertia to help steer the big ship in a direction that we like. And hopefully it's successful to boot because that'll only speed the process along.
As for marketing aspect, I think it's more, for me at least, not expanding the market so much as cluing in the market already there that your games are something a person would want to buy.
How many women have commented that they'd only bought games when they realised that they could play as a lady or that the games were something up their alley by word of mouth. I'm sure many more people that are ALREADY gamers, who aren't marketed to, wouldn't know that this was an option for them unless they're informed.
Just to note, I suspect (as in, I can't say for certain) that part of the problem in gaming marketing is that it's a big boat that is slow to turn.
There's increasingly more data that shows that, well, old data may not be fair (i.e. looking at a game that featured more female presence that sold poorly and concluding that THAT is why the game sold poorly, as opposed to other measurements), but there's also going to be comfort/safety with the status quo, even if I don't like it and even if it can frustrate me as well.
But it's easier for me to say this because ultimately hundreds of jobs don't rely on my decision being the correct one. I'd like to think that I'd be just as "stick to my guns" about it as I am right now, but I could possibly have different perspectives if I was the studio GM or anything like that.
As an aside, I disagree that "businesses ultimately succeed" by expanding their demographic. I think that it's one way to grow, and I think that this sort of stuff is a good way for BioWare (and EA) to grow towards, but I also know products and games that succeed by simply delivering on what their target audience wants. Many Kickstarter projects do just this, and a game like Eve Online is very successful by focusing specifically on what their audience wants, rather than trying to lure me into the game experience.
I understand that business wants to be conservative in the marketing choices they make. But the 'you win we lose' mentality seems a little over the top considering there are other more significant issues that make a game succeed or fail.
And yes technically, business ultimately succeeds by selling more product, sometimes irrespective of quality, but you can saturate the demographic. There are only so many men and boys wanting to play Bioware games, whilst I'm pretty sure, as evidenced by you Allan at PAX, that there is definitely increasing interest in Bioware games amongst female gamers, I don't see how marketing to them is going to make the game a failure.
As for marketing aspect, I think it's more, for me at least, not expanding the market so much as cluing in the market already there that your games are something a person would want to buy.
How many women have commented that they'd only bought games when they realised that they could play as a lady or that the games were something up their alley by word of mouth. I'm sure many more people that are ALREADY gamers, who aren't marketed to, wouldn't know that this was an option for them unless they're informed.
I don't know how many have, unfortunately. Unfortunately, the same arguments I use that the game forum or online community is a poor example of confirming why marketing should target men can be turned around back on me.
The biggest challenge I see with marketing a product like this is that we don't have controlled experiments with controlled variables (and we likely never will). So a game will be marketed with a woman in mind, and it will fail to achieve expectations. This creates all sorts of complications because we can ask:
I mean, I'm curious how successful the game would be if we blinked the forums out of existence, and no one that posted here regularly bothered to by the game. It'd at least be interesting from a "how much of the total fanbase does the community make up?" How many people would even disappear? (lets say we define "regularly posting" as once a week).
Because we can't actively experiment in a controlled environment (risk and possibly ethical concerns), those unknown conflating variables will be interpreted by people that have their biases. If we market more to women and sell as many games as we normally do... was it worth it? Some would say yes (they'd feel appreciated). If the cost was the same then I don't think there'd be much resistance. But even then, if DAI sells about the same as DAO, does that mean that marketing to women is not worth it? What if most would consider DAI a better game, or even interestingly, a worse game? But it's hard to tell and one of the only consistent metrics of success is how many people pick up the game. There are so many factors, in my opinion, that influence that.
It seems that you're saying "He should have gone with the argument that falls more in line with mine" which seems like a fairly obvious position to me.
His attempt at Devil's Advocacy was to try to thought experiment reasons for why this process may not happen, certainly as quickly as we may like. Unfortunately such decisions don't rely on you (nor even me). Just know that it's something that I escalate and I know that there are others at BioWare that feel the same way, so hopefully we'll get inertia to help steer the big ship in a direction that we like. And hopefully it's successful to boot because that'll only speed the process along.
Well no, that's not the case, his arguments were poorly formed, based on spurious statistics and exaggerations employed as comparisons that were not logical and bordered on insulting. Just because he's 'thinking out loud' doesn't mean if he says something that we disagree with we can't call him on it. His argument for marketing to focus on the races and CC rather than more for the fem Inquisitor was far less loaded.
And you're right the decisions don't lie with us, but isn't this the feeback and suggestion section?
Guest_Puddi III_*
My opinion on these tired old "how many girl gamers are there" debates where both sides claim the data is on their side, is that either we believe the ones who say the numbers are equaling out now, or we believe the ones that say there's still a disparity, but in that case I tend to think that's probably a catch-22 and shouldn't chain bioware down on how they should market the game.
Because we can't actively experiment in a controlled environment (risk and possibly ethical concerns), those unknown conflating variables will be interpreted by people that have their biases. If we market more to women and sell as many games as we normally do... was it worth it? Some would say yes (they'd feel appreciated). If the cost was the same then I don't think there'd be much resistance. But even then, if DAI sells about the same as DAO, does that mean that marketing to women is not worth it? What if most would consider DAI a better game, or even interestingly, a worse game? But it's hard to tell and one of the only consistent metrics of success is how many people pick up the game. There are so many factors, in my opinion, that influence that.
I don't really like this whole marketing to women thing being akin to some dangerous scientific experiment at the lab that may or may not cause the whole building to blow up. 
I know that's not what you're saying, but that's what it makes me think of.
So because there are a lot of factors to consider and we don't know what the results will be, does that ultimately mean we shouldn't be bothering doing it in the first place?
My opinion on these tired old "how many girl gamers are there" debates where both sides claim the data is on their side, is that either we believe the ones who say the numbers are equaling out now, or we believe the ones that say there's still a disparity, but in that case I tend to think that's probably a catch-22 and shouldn't chain bioware down on how they should market the game.
The debates exist to derail and devalue the suggestion that female gamers are becoming more prolific and perhaps should be considered more. I grow weary of it too. Again, people opposed to the idea of games and their marketing being more inclusive to women think they have something to lose, that's just patently false. Bioware will have their own strategies for marketing, and I don't think anyone here is advocating a 'should' more a kindly 'can we please see more, that would be lovely, thanks.'
I understand that business wants to be conservative in the marketing choices they make. But the 'you win we lose' mentality seems a little over the top considering there are other more significant issues that make a game succeed or fail.
And yes technically, business ultimately succeeds by selling more product, sometimes irrespective of quality, but you can saturate the demographic. There are only so many men and boys wanting to play Bioware games, whilst I'm pretty sure, as evidenced by you Allan at PAX, that there is definitely increasing interest in Bioware games amongst female gamers, I don't see how marketing to them is going to make the game a failure.
Guest_Puddi III_*
Can I just say one of my fantasies is to some day see a movie or play a game where a pretty male is the damsel in distress and the strong, capable woman has to rescue him?
http://www.crunchyro...tch-craft-works
Not exactly a game or movie, but. 
I don't really like this whole marketing to women thing being akin to some dangerous scientific experiment at the lab that may or may not cause the whole building to blow up.
So because there are a lot of factors to consider and we don't know what the results will be, does that ultimately mean we shouldn't be bothering doing it in the first place?
NO. It absolutely does NOT mean that "we shouldn't be bothering doing anything in the first place." I don't think anyone, not even Steelcan, is saying that.
I'm saying we have to KEEP saying it. I'm also saying that I don't think it's going to turn as fast as we'd like (which is a crappy thing, for the most part....) but I do think it's worth it and maintaining your visibility is important.
The only other thing I could realistically think of would be to form a giant coalition of all women that will by the game, and have them wait for some time so that people could clearly see "this is the jump in sales that happened with women." But that would require you to delay having fun with DAI when it gets released and would probably have logistical challenges that would be nearly impossible to overcome, especially since the internet is the best way to get that widespread appeal but I've already stated my skepticism that the internet DAI community makes up a large enough portion of the fanbase.
Unless people had other solutions. You could twitter bomb Fem!Quisitor images and the like.... But like I said, I'm not a marketer... a lot of this stuff is magical hoodoo to me so what proactive methods are out there that we could take to make it seem more obvious?
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