@ Allan Sorry should have clarified 'you win we lose' as - 'by marketing to women - female gamers feel more included and may want to purchase the game but some other aspect of the game is going to suffer.'
CCP?
I'm not a business person, or marketing person, just a lowly bug scientist who likes to play games, so I can't argue against anything you've said on that topic.
Well no, that's not the case, his arguments were poorly formed, based on spurious statistics and exaggerations employed as comparisons that were not logical and bordered on insulting. Just because he's 'thinking out loud' doesn't mean if he says something that we disagree with we can't call him on it. His argument for marketing to focus on the races and CC rather than more for the fem Inquisitor was far less loaded.
I won't dispute that Devil's Advocacy is tricky. I took our tangent to PM because I had more specific questions about it since I was getting confused with his positions. But that's also why I responded to the other chap that I don't know if Devil's Advocacy is required to put forth, since I think being effective at it is challenging. There's also the risk that people will lose track that it's Devil's Advocacy and just ascribe that position to you.
I can understand that I am taking a risk by doing so myself, with more recent posts, because I may make mistakes and undermine where people think I lie on this spectrum.
And you're right the decisions don't lie with us, but isn't this the feedback and suggestion section?
This is. And its feedback and it can't stop IMO. I'm not suggesting that it should stop at all. If people are taking my posts this way, I think there's been a misunderstanding somewhere and perhaps something I said wasn't as clear as I had intended it to be.
Read the article, but my point wasn't "someone always needs to argue the counterpoint/play advocate because reasons" it was more "if people didn't then there would be like....1/4 the posts on here" the internet as we know it could implodeIf you're implication is "someone needs to Devil's Advocate" then I'd actually wager no. Devil's Advocacy is a tricky thing and it can be all too easy to get caught up in now arguing the position (and it coming across as it being your own position) because of the human brain having a strong inclination to defend itself from being wrong.
(Pleasant reading IMO: http://www.cracked.c...-you-think.html though I'd prefer comments about this to come as PMs than to derail the topic further)
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Ah. Okay. I think I got it. 
Thanks Allan.
Anyway I'm not sure all this "data" (which is murky at best) has to be analyzed, experimented with, etc to such an extent just to begin to mildly include an entire other gender.
That picture of both Inquisitors posted on facebook seemed to get tons of great feedback, mostly directed toward the female version. So clearly the people who are interested in a female Inquisitor are already in existence. I don't think we'd need to experiment with number of sales of this version versus number of sales of that version.
@ Allan Sorry should have clarified 'you win we lose' as - 'by marketing to women - female gamers feel more included and may want to purchase the game but some other aspect of the game is going to suffer.'
I agree with you. I don't think that including some marketing towards females would have a huge impact probably one way or another. Certainly not that any aspect of the game is going to suffer.
CCP?
I'm not a business person, or marketing person, just a lowly bug scientist who likes to play games, so I can't argue against anything you've said on that topic.
CCP makes the game, Eve Online. They target a very specific part of all gamers, and tend not really see huge swings in their subscription numbers (although looking now, in recent years they did see a spike, so I suppose that it's not the best overall example). But they focus on a particular type of gamer, and are content to not go chasing the larger numbers that a game like WoW once had, okay to carve out their niche.
Ah. Okay. I think I got it.
Anyway I'm not sure all this "data" (which is murky at best) has to be analyzed, experimented with, etc to such an extent just to begin to mildly include an entire other gender.
That picture of both Inquisitors posted on facebook seemed to get tons of great feedback, mostly directed toward the female version. So clearly the people who are interested in a female Inquisitor are already in existence. I don't think we'd need to experiment with number of sales of this version versus number of sales of that version.
Well, when dealing with large sums of money data will probably always be required. We best just hope it's accurate and the conclusions that we draw from it are fair to the data.
And yes, I think the facebook picture is a good thing and I'm glad that a lot of the feedback has been for more female inquisitor stuff. I think people need to keep asking for that and it's why I have no issue taking part in a thread like this one.
I agree with you. I don't think that including some marketing towards females would have a huge impact probably one way or another. Certainly not that any aspect of the game is going to suffer.
CCP makes the game, Eve Online. They target a very specific part of all gamers, and tend not really see huge swings in their subscription numbers (although looking now, in recent years they did see a spike, so I suppose that it's not the best overall example). But they focus on a particular type of gamer, and are content to not go chasing the larger numbers that a game like WoW once had, okay to carve out their niche.
Oh LOL I should have known that, my partner is an obsessive EVE player, been playing since it started (well will be until Elite:Dangerous comes out anyway). And that particular MMO does not appeal to me in the slightest! Although EVE's character creator is to die for (nudge, nudge...)
Unless people had other solutions. You could twitter bomb Fem!Quisitor images and the like....
Well, they could start by taking a look at the people who responded "female" to the "what gender will your Inquisitor be" Tweet from a few days back. I know it's a self-selecting sample of people who have a high level of product knowledge, and I have no idea what the numbers actually are, but it'd be a data point, at least.
While I don't agree with how things are currently (in terms of marketing), I understand why it's done. I think, as Allan said, it is a big boat slow to turn. I think it was handled beautifully with Mass Effect 3 and I think with that and the current DA:I box art, a big step is being taken in the right direction.
I won't dispute that Devil's Advocacy is tricky. I took our tangent to PM because I had more specific questions about it since I was getting confused with his positions. But that's also why I responded to the other chap that I don't know if Devil's Advocacy is required to put forth, since I think being effective at it is challenging. There's also the risk that people will lose track that it's Devil's Advocacy and just ascribe that position to you.
I can understand that I am taking a risk by doing so myself, with more recent posts, because I may make mistakes and undermine where people think I lie on this spectrum.
I think the difference is that you usually make it clear that you're bringing up a point purely for discussion purposes, not necessarily because it reflects your view. You can't pretend to be playing Devil's Advocate while just aggressively trying to poke holes in every argument and being contrary for the sake of being contrary. That's not Devil's Advocacy, that's just pissing people off. 
I'm saying we have to KEEP saying it. I'm also saying that I don't think it's going to turn as fast as we'd like (which is a crappy thing, for the most part....) but I do think it's worth it and maintaining your visibility is important.
Unless people had other solutions. You could twitter bomb Fem!Quisitor images and the like....
You're such a great guy, Allan. People like you are why I continue to have faith in Bioware and in the gaming community at large.
You bet your ass I'm going to be spamming Tumblr and Twitter with Fem!Quisitor when we get more of her. The female side of fandom has always been a fan-run movement, no reason why we should stop now.
While I don't agree with how things are currently (in terms of marketing), I understand why it's done. I think, as Allan said, it is a big boat slow to turn. I think it was handled beautifully with Mass Effect 3 and I think with that and the current DA:I box art, a big step is being taken in the right direction.
I'm in agreement. Marketing is actually a very good ole boy environment from all that I've heard. And there's a lot of comfort in doing what's always worked because Marketing isn't a science but an art. And there's a lot of resistance to change...but I agree. If we keep up asking for more visibility, keep responding well to when they do give visibility, it'll slowly change. Probably not as fast as we want, but better than not at all.
It's funny (by which I mean terrible), that whenever someone mentions that close to half the gaming population is women, someone pops out of the woodwork to say "But they're playing mobile and social games! They don't count! They're not Real Gamers ™!".
Of course they count, don't be stupid. For starters, Bioware makes mobile and social games, in addition to their main products, and so they should absolutely be concerned about that portion of the market.
Secondly, if the majority of female gamers are exclusively playing mobile and social games (and I'm not convinced that's the case), has anybody stopped to consider why that might be? Maybe it's because Farmville and the like include female characters in their marketing, while the "AAA" market is mostly unwelcoming, and plasters the covers of their games with angry white dudes who are designed to look intimidating.
Thirdly, every gamer has to start out somewhere. I doubt that anyone here jumped straight into gaming with Dragon Age and Call of Duty. I sure didn't. Mobile and social games are more accessible than "real" games because they don't cost over $50 to pick up and play.
And finally, if women aren't a part of the "real gamer" community, it's probably because the "real gamer" community sucks. In fact, I'm pretty sure this entire argument of "they don't count" is designed to keep women out of gaming by dismissing their demographic out of hand, rather than trying to tackle the problem of why they don't play and how to get them to play.
The truth is that it's extremely easy to get women to play. You just have to invite them. When I was about 13-15, and I had nobody to play Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance with, I asked my mother. It was really, really easy to do, and she enjoyed it so much that we played the Dark Alliance games like a billion times over, and then we bought the Champions of Norrath games and we played those repeatedly also (but not as much, because they kind of sucked).
In fact, my mother became so enthusiastic about these games that it was difficult to get her to go away when I wanted to play something else. But since then, I got her into Pokemon, and also the Elder Scrolls series. In fact, when Skyrim was announced, my mother, who was now nearly fifty, went out and pre-ordered it of her own volition. I don't even really like the Elder Scrolls, and had no real intention of buying it for myself.
More recently, we played Diablo III on PS3 together, and if Sacred 3 has couch co-op, we might play that as well.
And maybe she needed (and still needs) a lot of help sometimes, and maybe it gets annoying, but if our male relatives wanted to get into gaming and needed our help, we wouldn't just dismiss them out of hand.
I'd like for more women (edit: and men) to be able to appreciate this fact because they know it's in the game. It's hard to appreciate something if you don't know it exists.
Also, there's room for improvement. We don't need to give up and be satisfied with scraps from the gaming industry because it's better than nothing. I say from the gaming industry because Bioware is infinitely better than the gaming industry as a whole.
I still recall the old games being male pc's only we could not even choose there armor styles, gamers today are spoiled for choice
*snip*
Reading this post was amazing. Thank you for taking the time to write that!!
Also, your mother sounds friggin' awesome. And adorable.
Reading this post was amazing. Thank you for taking the time to write that!!
Also, your mother sounds friggin' awesome.
I forgot to mention, we also played LotR: War in the North. But then we got some awful, game-breaking glitch where it wouldn't recognise that we'd killed a boss, and so the plot triggers wouldn't occur and we couldn't actually complete the damn campaign.
And she never wants to play female characters basically ever. She likes dwarves, for some reason.
I think the difference is that you usually make it clear that you're bringing up a point purely for discussion purposes, not necessarily because it reflects your view. You can't pretend to be playing Devil's Advocate while just aggressively trying to poke holes in every argument and being contrary for the sake of being contrary. That's not Devil's Advocacy, that's just pissing people off.
Fair enough. You can feel free to decide that someone was or was not just trying to hide behind the term Devil's Advocate. I think many do feel Devil's Advocate is akin to be contrary. I also think that many people (including myself) dislike being called wrong, and I will fully admit that I have effectively argued that the colour black is white (figuratively speaking) because of ego. To me it's just a reinforcement that Devil's Advocacy is a tricky thing to execute.
Wow, seems like I missed a lot of discussion during the night (living in a non-US time zone). I appreciate all the discussion and would like to add some of my own thoughts to the discussion.
- The implication that people who don't explore the menu options are simply lazy and somehow have their selves to blame for missing out on stuff is problematic to me. Actually, the User Interface is supposed to communicate these things to me, which ME failed to do. The initial interface may look cool, but it's confusing and thus failed to do what it's supposed to. To put this into context: Years ago, when a friend of mine pressed ME and ME2 in my hands and said, "It's a long shot but I think you might like them", I booted the first game up on my fiancées Xbox360 (which I had hardly even touched before) and pressed Confirm-confirm-confirm until the game began, so I ended up with the default soldier-earthborn-mShep. When I told my friend about it, he was so surprised that I didn't choose to play as a woman, but since he hadn't actually mentioned the possibility to me before, I hadn't even been aware of the option. I guess I just thought that most shooters featured exclusively male characters (and as mentioned earlier in the thread, the main screen in ME lacked in communicating other options to complete newbies like me). By then, I was too far into the story and already emotionally invested (and playing was quite difficult for me, good thing the pause-and-play feature was there!), so I didn't want to go back. I later replayed ME-ME2 as a female Shepard and loved her as well. So both versions of Shepard will always be dear to me and I tend to alternate between replays. Also, I think it took me quite a while to realize that ME was kind of a RPG game (since Soldier was possible to play rather straight forward by simply shooting everything).
- Defaulting to "but only women play casual games" in discussions like this ignores the fact that many women play both. I recently got a friend interested in Heroes of Dragon Age (the mobile game), and she got so interested in the small tidbits of story and the diversity of the characters that after a few weeks, she started playing Dragon Age Origins (as a female elven mage). When she told me about it, I was so glad to have been able to bring back a "lapsed" Bioware fan into the fold (she apparently used to play a lot of Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter Nights, etc). I'm absolutely sure that more people will be drawn into the DA universe through mobile gaming. Looking down on easy-access platforms like mobile gaming is foolish imo.
- I have friends who skipped DA2 because the trailers communicated to them that DAII was a "game about becoming a badass", as they described it. I personally don't think that forming ones opinion purely from promotional items like trailers is very smart, but despite my opinion on the matter it is unfortunately what a lot of people do. Working at a cinema, I see this happen all the time. People won't show up for movies that get bad reviews, even when the reviews are horribly misinformed or simply dismissive ("The Congress", for example, completely bombed after a really negative review in the local paper, but those that showed up all told me that they loved the movie). This is sort of the tip of an iceberg, but reactions like these tell us that trailers, reviews, etc do play a huge part in attracting or repelling and audience, and could help as well as hurt sales.
- I'm glad to hear that Bioware will at least mention the Lady Inquisitor on the homepage. It's a first step, and hopefully not the last.
- There is a difference between trying to reach an audience that are already aware of you, and those who have yet to find out about your product. As the trailer with femShep was web-only, it probably never reached far outside the already existing community. Since femShep has never been properly marketed, and for reasons mentioned previously in this discussion, I'd absolutely refrain from using the "17% finished the game as femShep" as a fact in any kind of discussion on the topic. In order to draw any reliable conclusions you need to compare products that have received the same amount of exposure in marketing, which is not true in the matter of mShep vs femShep.
Well, they could start by taking a look at the people who responded "female" to the "what gender will your Inquisitor be" Tweet from a few days back. I know it's a self-selecting sample of people who have a high level of product knowledge, and I have no idea what the numbers actually are, but it'd be a data point, at least.
This comment made me a little curious! I, uh...went through 224 comments on twitter and facebook to see which gender people picked: 168 people said they'd be playing as a female inquisitor, 56 as a male inquisitor. In percentages, that's a pretty neat 75% female and 25% male. Interesting numbers, despite the sampling flaw you already pointed out.
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About your long post, I ran out of likes (goddamn all of you people that stole my likes with your good posts) but
I think it's easy for us to lose perspective when the advertising caters so much to us.
Okay, nevermind, not taking this discussion.
PS: Should I check my oppressive christian cis slave-owner white male privilege?
Okay, nevermind, not taking this discussion.
PS: Should I check my oppressive christian cis slave-owner white male privilege?
Well, that or get a friend to tape your hands together.
Well, that or get a friend to tape your hands together.
Not getting it.
Not getting it.
I agree. You are certainly not getting it.
Okay, nevermind, not taking this discussion.
PS: Should I check my oppressive christian cis slave-owner white male privilege?
If you're not taking this discussion, why do you have a PS parting shot?
Stating that I feel I have a degree of privilege doesn't mean that I feel guilty about being white. It's simply an understanding that not everyone experiences life the same way that I do, and that in a lot of ways those experiences are, in general, less ideal.
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