Jesus f. christ get a load of the posts in this thread: http://forum.bioware...n-femfrequency/
Is this is still the de facto unofficial feminist thread of the bsn? I know I've called some of you extremists before but maybe we need extremists to fight extremists
The less said about that thing the better. I waded in there twice.
The less said about that thing the better. I waded in there twice.
That's all I need to read to avoid that thread. I trust your judgement. 
Jesus f. christ get a load of the posts in this thread: http://forum.bioware...n-femfrequency/
Is this is still the de facto unofficial feminist thread of the bsn? I know I've called some of you extremists before but maybe we need extremists to fight extremists
Take a shot every time you see the words "cherry picking" used in reference to Feminist Frequency.
I usually try to avoid bringing Feminist Frequency up here because way too many people get frothing mad at the very mention of it, but I totally appreciated David Gaider's comments on the issue. And if people could tolerate actually having healthy debate about her points without falling back on attacking her as a person, that would be nothing but a good thing. I disagree with Anita Sarkeesian about Bayonetta, for example, but I absolutely see her side of it, and would love to have a civil discussion about it over tea. That's how real debate works. People constantly attacking her or her videos as a whole just shuts down any chance to debate the issues at all.
I generally avoid giving my opinion about FF, but I feel this is a safe thread to do it . I'll be honest: I don't like Ms. Sarkessian very much. I think she jumps way too far in her videos, and I find myself disagreeing with her more often than not. I also loathe how she uses the "Women don't know better," elements in her speech, which comes up a lot. I also know that she doesn't play most of the game she reviews, which would make me lose respect for her regardless of gender.
I do enjoy the articles on Feminist Frequency from time to time though, and it seems like a lot of folks have forgotten that she's just one writer/reviewer for that site.
However, I have a serious problem with the way Anita is being treated. Odd how I see a dissenting opinion and think, "Well, I don't agree with you," where's a few...others see a dissenting opinion they don't agree with, they respond with doxxing and horrific threats of violence. Last I checked, male gamers/trope reviewers were allowed to have unpopular opinions without rape and/or death threats.
Gamergate is worse and something I'm glad that Ms. Sarkessian isn't part of. I made the mistake of looking into the details of that, and I saw some of the tweets as well.
Guest_StreetMagic_*
I generally avoid giving my opinion about FF, but I feel this is a safe thread to do it . I'll be honest: I don't like Ms. Sarkessian very much. I think she jumps way too far in her videos, and I find myself disagreeing with her more often than not. I also loathe how she uses the "Women don't know better," elements in her speech, which comes up a lot. I also know that she doesn't play most of the game she reviews, which would make me lose respect for her regardless of gender.
I do enjoy the articles on Feminist Frequency from time to time though, and it seems like a lot of folks have forgotten that she's just one writer/reviewer for that site.
However, I have a serious problem with the way Anita is being treated. Odd how I see a dissenting opinion and think, "Well, I don't agree with you," where's a few...others see a dissenting opinion they don't agree with, they respond with doxxing and horrific threats of violence. Last I checked, male gamers/trope reviewers were allowed to have unpopular opinions without rape and/or death threats.
Gamergate is worse and something I'm glad that Ms. Sarkessian isn't part of. I made the mistake of looking into the details of that, and I saw some of the tweets as well.
Agreed. I don't like some of the critiques, but I'm not about to condone some of this other stuff. If I could, I'd dish out my own violence on some of these males. I'm not a woman, but I'm still offended. Both for women, and for myself (in the case of myself, they make me - another male gamer - look stupid. Kind of like an idiotic relative).
I wish it had not elevated to this point. Now she's got such a big platform that I'm not sure who can engage her equally. She's famous now. It'd be nice if she could just sit down and listen to some fans of these games and have a constructive conversation.
I'd love to a cup of coffee with her and just talk to her as well. Pick her brain, and also give my feedback respectfully to her. The irony of this is that if it hadn't been for the level of overreaction from those that despise her, she might not have become as well known as she has.
I generally avoid giving my opinion about FF, but I feel this is a safe thread to do it . I'll be honest: I don't like Ms. Sarkessian very much. I think she jumps way too far in her videos, and I find myself disagreeing with her more often than not. I also loathe how she uses the "Women don't know better," elements in her speech, which comes up a lot. I also know that she doesn't play most of the game she reviews, which would make me lose respect for her regardless of gender.
I do enjoy the articles on Feminist Frequency from time to time though, and it seems like a lot of folks have forgotten that she's just one writer/reviewer for that site.
However, I have a serious problem with the way Anita is being treated. Odd how I see a dissenting opinion and think, "Well, I don't agree with you," where's a few...others see a dissenting opinion they don't agree with, they respond with doxxing and horrific threats of violence. Last I checked, male gamers/trope reviewers were allowed to have unpopular opinions without rape and/or death threats.
Gamergate is worse and something I'm glad that Ms. Sarkessian isn't part of. I made the mistake of looking into the details of that, and I saw some of the tweets as well.
Is that confirmed anywhere? Because I have never seen anyone other than the people who hate her say that she does not play the games she reviews. It's a very common argument used to discredit what she says.
Guest_StreetMagic_*
I'd love to a cup of coffee with her and just talk to her as well. Pick her brain, and also give my feedback respectfully to her. The irony of this is that if it hadn't been for the level of overreaction from those that despise her, she might not have become as well known as she has.
I think we should get a famous DA fan to engage her (read: Felicia Day). Only the famous can speak to the famous. 
Seriously though. Felicia Day would be the perfect ambassador.
About Ms.Sarkessian, I have only one thing to say: Don't Shoot The Message
She have some good validate arguments, but the way she present them kills any chance for serious discussion,
That said, if video games want to be regard as a serious "art", then criticism , positive or otherwise, is inevitable, people need to learn to accept that.
Mock her, criticize her method all you want, but rape/death threat is never OK.
Is that confirmed anywhere? Because I have never seen anyone other than the people who hate her say that she does not play the games she reviews. It's a very common argument used to discredit what she says.
I can go check. Hopefully you can tell that I am not one of the people that hates her.
Few minutes of googling later...
This is from a college lecture that she did back in 2010:
@ 12:20 she admits to not being a fan of video games, and that she would "Love to play video games, but doesn't want to go around shooting people or ripping off their heads, that's just gross.":
So, she apparently doesn't play a lot of the games I've seen her review. While this doesn't invalidate any of her arguments, or stances, and I still feel this is something that should be explored further, Anita herself is not a gamer. I don't see her opinions about women in tropes as any less valid, but I did lose respect for her by a lot. If she wants to critique games, that's her right. I guess it would be easier for me to take her a bit more seriously if she actually played the games she was talking about.
Except TERA. I wouldn't wish that on anyone. 
Well I guess Pandora's box is wide open now.
Sarkessian's videos identify a problematic trend and they provide a barrage of examples of it. Unfortunately her analysis doesn't seem to go very far, she lists far more examples than she justifies (see DA:O), and most importantly I don't remember her giving alternate examples which are similar but not problematic or offering any constructive advice to build on.
However, when I see a mass of examples of sexualised women being killed for cheap drama kicks culminating in a player character leaving a topless woman to be snapped in half by a door mechanism for a laugh, I don't care about the quality of her discussion. This is reflective of the games I play, and it is a problem, and I don't want to put up with it anymore.
Fortunately, actual game developers do seem to be having the conversations that the players are apparently largely incapable of.
Take a shot every time you see the words "cherry picking" used in reference to Feminist Frequency.
I want to keep my liver.
I'm not a fan of her at all, but I'm shaking my head at how laughably easy people in that thread are getting offended, and their use of Anita as a license for their misogynistic outlet.
"How dare you blame men for shootings, what a dumbbitch ho, women love to be sex objects"
Guest_StreetMagic_*
I'm not a fan of her at all, but I'm shaking my head at how laughably easy people in that thread are getting offended, and their use of Anita as a license for their misogynistic outlet.
People in this thread? I just pop in occassionally, but it seemed like a cool place.
People in this thread? I just pop in occassionally, but it seemed like a cool place.
<looks around>
No offense or misogyny going on here, just mainly saddened that this woman is getting such awful threats. In fact, this is one of the only times she's ever been brought up in this massive thread. I have a feeling the FF thread is going to vary page by page. Flip to one page and the conversation is civil. Flip to another and it's foaming at the mouth idiocy on both sides.
As obnoxious as many of the posts in that thread are, I really don't want this thread to be locked because of going off topic. I will say it's a great example of Lewis' Law: "comments on any article about feminism justify feminism."
Guest_StreetMagic_*
What thefuck does this post even have to do with anything?
Not sure. Looks stupid though.
I'm just glad this place isn't like the rest of the Gamer Internet. It's relatively cool. Seriously... I'm impressed by Bioware's forums for the most part. Not necessarily for this gender related issue.. but people don't troll a lot here in general.
On a personal level, I resent FF for making it nearly impossible to discuss representation in media without mobs lumping you as "femininazi bra burner".
Oh and whoever invent the word femininazi...I hate you.
This is the best video response I have ever seen it a lot of FF. It's by a soft spoken woman that brings up all of the particular problems I've had. It's not hateful towards Anita, or FF. It's not hateful towards anyone, actually. It does offer a very good counterpoint, and I found myself nodding throughout most of it:
Talking about Anita is keeping on topic, actually. This thread has long since evolved just past DA and has talked about women in gaming as a whole. Not just the ad side of it, but how we are portrayed in games in general. However, let's not give that other thread any more attention than it already has.
On a personal level, I resent FF for making it nearly impossible to discuss representation in media without mobs lumping you as "femininazi bra burner".
Oh and whoever invent the word femininazi...I hate you.
I don't. Feminazi, bra burner and other such words go back to the feminist movements of the 1960s. Where in a couple of instances, women did take off their bras and throw them in a trash can in a quiet peaceful protest, but never burned them. The media took that and ran with it. I'm not giving some well-meaning college-educated lady of the new millennium that much credit. That's been a problem that's been going on for almost 50 years now.
I can go check. Hopefully you can tell that I am not one of the people that hates her.
Few minutes of googling later...
This is from a college lecture that she did back in 2010:
@ 12:20 she admits to not being a fan of video games, and that she would "Love to play video games, but doesn't want to go around shooting people or ripping off their heads, that's just gross.":
Spoiler
So, she apparently doesn't play a lot of the games I've seen her review. While this doesn't invalidate any of her arguments, or stances, and I still feel this is something that should be explored further, Anita herself is not a gamer. I don't see her opinions about women in tropes as any less valid, but I did lose respect for her by a lot. If she wants to critique games, that's her right. I guess it would be easier for me to take her a bit more seriously if she actually played the games she was talking about.
Except TERA. I wouldn't wish that on anyone.
I can tell you're not just out to get her, that's why I asked. 
I can't watch the video at the moment since I'm sneaking on at work, but I'll check it out when I get home. However, I would say that it's reasonable that before she started FF, she wasn't playing those video games that she's now talking about. I play games pretty much every day, but since I play for pleasure, I play a very narrow selection that fit my personal tastes, and avoid the ones that I think would be problematic for me. If I were trying to have any sort of professional opinion on games as a reviewer or critic, I would have to branch out and play games I'd never tried before. It wouldn't mean that I wasn't as much of a gamer now, but that I'd have to become a different kind of gamer to have professional credibility.
In other places she talks about playing games a ton:
From 2013: http://www.feministf...ita-sarkeesian/
PD: Can I ask what you’ve been playing recently and what your responses to the depiction of women in these games has been? I noticed you recently tweeted about the female characters in Dishonored, which you felt disappointed by.AS: I’ve been playing a ridiculous number of games over the past several months looking for either examples or counterexamples for each of the tropes in my series. I’ve also been revisiting a good amount of games I haven’t played since my childhood, which has been a little bittersweet to be honest. Mostly because along with all the fun nostalgia there’s also a number of seriously problematic gender representations, many of which I didn’t really notice back when I was a kid. So I’m playing (or replaying) everything from Zelda and Metroid to Secret of Monkey Island and Braid to the God of War and Bioshock series.
From 2012: http://www.destructo...en-230337.phtml
Destructoid: How did you first get into gaming as a hobby and in what way would you describe your relationship with the medium?Anita Sarkeesian: Because my dad was a networking engineer I basically grew up surrounded by computers and started playing PC games at a pretty young age. I also spent a lot of time with the NES and the SNES but what I remember most is the Game Boy. At around ten years old I begged my parents to get me one, this took some serious persuasion on my part because 1) my parents believed it was a toy for boys (at the time I didn't realize how gendered the marketing was, I mean, it's called Game 'Boy' after all) and 2) my mom had heard all the nonsense about how videogames are dangerous and would rot my brain. In the end, though, they gave in and I remember the sense of victory when I unwrapped it on Christmas morning. After that, the Game Boy and I were inseparable.
Today, I would describe my relationship with gaming as complex, to say the least. There are a handful of truly amazing, artistic, creative and engaging games out there that I absolutely love. On the other hand there are so many more where I, as the player, am forced to choose between the ultra violent, emotionless space marine or the male fantasy style sex object. This is especially frustrating because there is an incredible amount of potential for the industry to push the envelope and create gaming experiences which employ more immersive storytelling, complex character development, and innovative gameplay.
Agreed. I don't like some of the critiques, but I'm not about to condone some of this other stuff. If I could, I'd dish out my own violence on some of these males. I'm not a woman, but I'm still offended. Both for women, and for myself (in the case of myself, they make me - another male gamer - look stupid. Kind of like an idiotic relative).
I wish it had not elevated to this point. Now she's got such a big platform that I'm not sure who can engage her equally. She's famous now. It'd be nice if she could just sit down and listen to some fans of these games and have a constructive conversation.
I don't know whether engaging her directly is really what's needed, because it's not a competition. It's not about Anita herself. It's about the topics being discussed. In that case, literally anybody can make an article or blog post or video discussing the same topics with a different perspective. And people do. There have been tons of articles looking at Bayonetta from a feminist perspective, for instance, and reaching very different conclusions.
That's why I value her videos. Because they're a starting point. They present an argument, with examples, and people can use that as a springboard to analyze games from their own perspectives.
I actually only know a very little about the GamerGate, Anita Sarkeesian... All the rest of it, because by the time I got into gaming it seemed like such a huge undertaking to research and understand what's going on so I can really take part in the conversation. I've just read a few synopsises.
I just stay by myself in DA:O playing my single-player playthroughs and ignore the rest of the world, unless I'm here, lol.
On a personal level, I resent FF for making it nearly impossible to discuss representation in media without mobs lumping you as "femininazi bra burner".
Oh and whoever invent the word femininazi...I hate you.
I don't exactly place all the blame on her. There'll always be extremists in any sort of movement or group that ruin it for more moderate members.
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