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[Grieving Natashina]

I think it's necessary to engage her, specifically when it comes to Bioware. Not really in general. Only because I think she'd find friends and allies among the developers and their fans. She missed the mark on DAO, and makes it look as silly as Duke Nukem. A female fan engaging her would do a lot to bridge the gap here.

Check out the video I linked.  I think you'd like it.

[Lady Nuggins]

I think it's necessary to engage her, specifically when it comes to Bioware. Not really in general. Only because I think she'd find friends and allies among the developers and their fans. She missed the mark on DAO, and makes it look as silly as Duke Nukem. A female fan engaging her would do a lot to bridge the gap here.

 

Well I'll say here what I already said in the dreaded thread: I don't think she missed the mark on DA:O at all.  

 

Look, I love the City Elf origin--if I'm playing a female elf.  Because as gross as the treatment of Shianni is, at least you're still playing a female character who rescues herself from her would-be rapists.  I could not possibly ever play it as a male who gets to be the hero who saves a raped woman from, presumably, more rape.  In the former scenario, you get to play someone who rose up in the face of adversity and fought off her own attackers.  In the latter scenario, you get to be a noble white knight whose nobility is dependent on the brutal treatment of another character.  No matter how well they wrote it, it's still too similar to many, many other versions of this trope, where the male gets to be viewed as a hero at the expense of a raped woman. 

 

I have multiple female friends who can't play the City Elf origin, even as a female character.  It hits home way too much.  Yes, there is horrible violence all throughout the DA games.  But most people who play these games are unlikely to have had parents who were killed by a sword, whereas there is a very high chance that many people who pick up the game are rape survivors.  Rape should never be thrown casually into a story, especially not as a quick and easy way to establish good and evil characters. 

 

Long story short, nobody's saying you can't enjoy the City Elf origin.  I do.  But you can't say that it doesn't have a whole lot of problems, and you can't say that it doesn't fit easily into the trope she's discussing, even if it's a better written version of that trope than most.  

 

The fact that Bioware is exceedingly more progressive than much of the video game industry does not make it exempt from criticism.  We see that from this very thread.  If they wrote something that fits a harmful trope, they wrote something that fits a harmful trope--even if there is plenty of context within the lore that it fits into.  That doesn't make Origins a horrible game, and it doesn't make Bioware a horrible company.  It means they wrote one particular thing that is worth examining.

[puppyofwar]

I don't exactly place all the blame on her. There'll always be extremists in any sort of movement or group that ruin it for more moderate members.

Yeah, that's true*sigh

 

A bit off topic, but speaking of female characters in games, despite my love for Bioware, Elle from the Last Of Us is, hands down, the most well-written and realistically strong female character ever.

 

aaaannnd someone have to bash her as male dependent

[Grieving Natashina]

@Lady My main problem is the lack of balance in her videos.  I can agree about the CE origin, but Anita also immediately dismisses everything else beyond that. Past Ostagar and the odd remark on the lack of women in the Grey Wardens, women were shown in all sorts of roles, including warriors, queens, leaders and soldiers.  One of the hardest characters to beat in the entire game is a female solider.  While I do think that the CE origin criticisms made by her can be considered valid, it immediately dismisses everything else.  Including that the CE female hero saves herself, her fiancee, and her friends.

 

That thing is certainly is worth examining, but her approach to the content is making DAO something it isn't.  It isn't a game that hates women, or depowers them at every opportunity.  I've seen that video for myself, and she leaves that impression on the viewer.

[AresKeith]

@Lady My main problem is the lack of balance in her videos.  I can agree about the CE origin, but Anita also immediately dismisses everything else beyond that. Past Ostagar and the odd remark on the lack of women in the Grey Wardens, women were shown in all sorts of roles, including warriors, queens, leaders and soldiers.  One of the hardest characters to beat in the entire game is a female solider.  While I do think that the CE origin criticisms made by her can be considered valid, it immediately dismisses everything else.  Including that the CE female hero saves herself, her fiancee, and her friends.

 

That thing is certainly is worth examining, but her approach to the content is making DAO something it isn't.  It isn't a game that hates women, or depowers them at every opportunity.  I've seen that video for myself, and she leaves that impression on the viewer.

 

That's honestly my main issue with her

[Killdren88]

Jesus f. christ get a load of the posts in this thread: http://forum.bioware...n-femfrequency/

 

Is this is still the de facto unofficial feminist thread of the bsn? I know I've called some of you extremists before but maybe we need extremists to fight extremists

 

Honestly I wish they would keep this nonsense out of video games. I just want to play and enjoy my video games and not have all this politically correct drama cast its shadow over it. I'm all for equality, but I don't think bashing the topic into people's heads over and over and over again is a wise strategy. Plus it's not a game developer's job to take into account every single possible group of people. If a developer wants to make a game with a male protag, that is their right. You don't have to play it, and you can go somewhere that will offer you more options. Like Bioware dose who takes into consideration both male and female gamers.

 

While yes, sites like the Femfrequency do raise good, points,  they do indeed cherry pick some points to try to paint everything with the same intolerant brush. If anything it makes me want to ignore it instead of making me think.

[Killdren88]

Yeah, that's true*sigh

 

A bit off topic, but speaking of female characters in games, despite my love for Bioware, Elle from the Last Of Us is, hands down, the most well-written and realistically strong female character ever.

 

aaaannnd someone have to bash her as male dependent

 

A young girl alone in the Apocalypses and someone calls her male dependent? That's called survival. Joel would be screwed without Elle and vice versa.

[Grieving Natashina]

That's honestly my main issue with her

Mine too, which is why I loved that video I just linked.  That lady who did the counterpoint video really said everything I've thought about the subject.  I also love that the video focuses on that FF video series alone.  She doesn't talk about Anita's gamer "cred," she doesn't talk about the research or the Kickstarter.  She simply addresses the material that Anita presented in her videos, and offers a very well done counterpoint.

 

A young girl alone in the Apocalypses and someone calls her male dependent? That's called survival. Joel would be screwed without Elle and vice versa.

I know, right? 

[Grieving Natashina]

One thing I did want to mention: Not all feminists agreed with Anita, and many of us aren't like her.  So please don't lump everyone that believes in more of a balance in gaming and better portrayal of woman in games with that particular group.  Feminist shouldn't be considered a dirty word, but since it has become one, think of it as equal rights.

 

Besides, blanket statements are bad.  

[AresKeith]

  One of the hardest characters to beat in the entire game is a female solider. 

 

I hope she appears in DA:I tbh

[puppyofwar]

One thing I did want to mention: Not all feminists agreed with Anita, and many of us aren't like her.  So please don't lump everyone that believes in more of a balance in gaming and better portrayal of woman in games with that particular group.  Feminist shouldn't be considered a dirty word, but since it has become one, think of it as equal rights.

 

Besides, blanket statements are bad.  

Preaching to the choir,dear.

[Grieving Natashina]

We are all talking about Cauthrien, right?

 

I'd think it's very possible since Alix Wilton Regan is here again.

Okay, I might have to seek out Ser Cauthrien if she is in the game.  I'd end up talking to myself, for sure.  After hearing Alix drop a very memorable line for me in ME3, as well as the awesomeness that is Samantha Trayor, she's the voice for my Lady Cadash.  

[WildOrchid]

A young girl alone in the Apocalypses and someone calls her male dependent? That's called survival. Joel would be screwed without Elle and vice versa.

 

They apparently didn't pay enough attention in the story.

[SardaukarElite]

The City Elf Origin is a very (I don't know how else to say this but...) male perspective of rape. The women are kidnapped, and our hero runs off to violently retrieve them. Even as a female, the player character gets out of the potential rape very quickly and turns around to be the rescuer. 

 

The thing is the actual rape is off camera and intangible. We clear an entire level to reach Shianni, sobbing and comfort her for what, a line of dialogue? Then we go back to the Alienage and everything is about our hero, we get another line or two talking to Shianni then it is off to join the Grey Wardens.

 

I don't know if it is really problematic, but it is shallow.

 

This is the best video response I have ever seen it a lot of FF.  It's by a soft spoken woman that brings up all of the particular problems I've had.  It's not hateful towards Anita, or FF.  It's not hateful towards anyone, actually.   It does offer a very good counterpoint, and I found myself nodding throughout most of it:

 

Spoiler

 

While that commentator certainly has important and valid points, I feel as if she is making the reverse mistake of not accepting Anita's position and working backwards to defend against it.

 

Her argument against the Damsel in Distress is that its Damsels have other positive qualities, not that the Damsel in Distress isn't as problematic as Anita makes out. Her examples of female rescuers mostly work in teams or don't rescue Damsel equivalents.

 

In short I think it would be framed better as an addition rather than a counter-argument.

 

Also I don't think either of them discuss Shiek, which makes the Zelda as damsel discussion really interesting.

[Grieving Natashina]

I didn't have the same interpretation of the video as you did, but I do see your point.  I also agree about Shiek.  

[Grieving Natashina]

And right here is how you have a discussion about this subject, while being respectful.  There isn't 100% agreement, but there is civility in opposing opinions.  I like this.

[Lady Nuggins]

@Lady My main problem is the lack of balance in her videos.  I can agree about the CE origin, but Anita also immediately dismisses everything else beyond that. Past Ostagar and the odd remark on the lack of women in the Grey Wardens, women were shown in all sorts of roles, including warriors, queens, leaders and soldiers.  One of the hardest characters to beat in the entire game is a female solider.  While I do think that the CE origin criticisms made by her can be considered valid, it immediately dismisses everything else.  Including that the CE female hero saves herself, her fiancee, and her friends.

 

That thing is certainly is worth examining, but her approach to the content is making DAO something it isn't.  It isn't a game that hates women, or depowers them at every opportunity.  I've seen that video for myself, and she leaves that impression on the viewer.

 

That's a fair point, but I don't think tarnishing the entirety of Origins is what she's doing, or trying to do.  She's calling out one specific scene, not the entire game.  If the video were focused on analyzing the whole game, that would be a different matter, but it's not.  The scene is used as an example in the discussion about using rape as a plot device.  The rest of the game isn't really relevant to the video.

[Grieving Natashina]

That's a fair point, but I don't think tarnishing the entirety of Origins is what she's doing, or trying to do.  She's calling out one specific scene, not the entire game.  If the video were focused on analyzing the whole game, that would be a different matter, but it's not.  The scene is used as an example in the discussion about using rape as a plot device.  The rest of the game isn't really relevant to the video.

I agree, except for the bolded.  I like and agree with most of your point.

 

There is where I guess that's where we'll probably agree to disagree.  I've seen that video and for my impression, she leaves the idea that the entire game is like that.  She also leaves out that the "I'm the bravest one here and I'm a woman" line that can occur very soon after.  That's problematic in the opposite direction for me, but I digress.

 

I've also said that her tone leaves a much different impression on the viewer.    DA is just one example where she only focuses on the negative aspect, while not citing the several positive others in the game towards women in the game.  And as Street just pointed out, it was supposed to be more about how much life sucks for the CE in general.  The way it was done however was not a good call.  I agree with that 100%.  

 

I'm not saying she's wrong, but I do have a problem with how she presents her views.   She might not being trying to tarnish and/or otherwise speak poorly of the game, but she ends up doing so in her video.  

 

I also watched her in that video call BioWare's developers misogynists.  Not just, "this scene comes across as misogynistic," but flat out calls the game developers misogynists.  Would I call that a little lazy, relying on a story method that seems more intended to shock than engage?  Yes.  Do I ever think BioWare was trying to be misogynists?  Hell no, otherwise I wouldn't be on the forums trying to engage with Allan and other devs.  Anita does this a lot to various companies, and with a few exceptions, this is very unfounded.

 

Edit: Removing this last paragraph, because it's getting too far off the topic of DA games.

[Grieving Natashina]

Sorry for the double post, but I might as well get this out:

 

In the end, her style isn't the takeaway for me anymore.  What she did was get everyone talking, from gamers to critics to those in the industry about this.  That was something that was very needed and something that is going to help benefit games as a whole down the road.  I don't necessarily have to agree with her approach, or even her as a person.  I commend her ability to get people talking.  Frankly, more people talk about the conversation she started over her these days.

 

The person that starts a conversation like this isn't always going to be perfect in their approach, nor are they going to be 100% correct.  I will always have respect for her for what she was intending, and what she tried to do.  I also think anyone that submits rape/death threats to her is an awful person that needs serious psychiatric help.  Just like with any critic, I don't have to agree with her completely in order to respect what she believes in and what she's trying to do.