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Could we please see more of the Lady Inquisitor?


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#8276
Grieving Natashina

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As much as I want to grumble about DAO like above, I have to agree. I myself wouldn't have spoken much about any of this if she hadn't brought it up. 

Yeah, putting aside some of my own personal bias isn't easy either.  Still though, Anita's topic and the reaction it's gotten for good and for ill has had everybody start talking about this much more over the last few years.   Besides, after years of the crap I put up with in WoW and other games as a woman, I'm glad the rest of the gaming culture is starting to realize that this isn't okay.   I'm glad that more companies have been re-examining their behavior and polices towards ladies in video games more.   Her videos aren't only one out there, and not the only reason why folks are talking about this more, naturally.  If anything, more than her words, the reaction and behavior by self-admitted male gamers have illuminated some of the issues she was trying to address in her videos.  

 

It's rather damned sad that it took a controversial critic getting rape, death and bomb threats for the gaming industry to go, "I think we created a problem."


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#8277
In Exile

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The fact that Bioware is exceedingly more progressive than much of the video game industry does not make it exempt from criticism.  We see that from this very thread.  If they wrote something that fits a harmful trope, they wrote something that fits a harmful trope--even if there is plenty of context within the lore that it fits into.  That doesn't make Origins a horrible game, and it doesn't make Bioware a horrible company.  It means they wrote one particular thing that is worth examining.

 

Bioware, I think, tries very hard to be aware of the tropes and beliefs with which they are dealing and the type of entertainment culture present in this society. That's laudable. But beyond that, there are a lot of issues that Bioware really struggles with, particularly in their portrayal of women. In particular, I think Bioware actually struggles with featuring women.

 

Let's take the example what we might call powerful figures in Thedas. We have lots of supposedly powerful female figures. Meredith. Anora. The Divines. Grand Cleric Elthina. They all tend to be part of the background to the story, not the featured aspect of the plot. That's a problem.

 

A different example relates to the actual attitudes within Thedas. In theory, Thedas is supposed to have a proper equal and progressive attitude toward gender. But often we see that it doesn't. Sometimes that bleeds it in from general IRL tropes, and that's really hard to fix without more female writers and designers. As guys, there's just a lack of lived experience that makes it hard to appreciate the impact of certain design choices. To use myself as an example, I didn't get why catcalls are so disgusting (though I always knew they were) until I walked down the street with my best friend and she was harassed by construction workers, guys just driving buy, etc.  The other part is dialogue, e.g. the "I'm braver than that and I'm a woman" line.  

 

I generally avoid giving my opinion about FF, but I feel this is a safe thread to do it .  I'll be honest: I don't like Ms. Sarkessian very much.  I think she jumps way too far in her videos, and I find myself disagreeing with her more often than not.  I also loathe how she uses the "Women don't know better," elements in her speech, which comes up a lot.  I also know that she doesn't play most of the game she reviews, which would make me lose respect for her regardless of gender. 

 

I think that Anita Sarkessian struggles a great deal with explaining the actual significance of a feminist critique of media to an unfamiliar audience. That's not to say that explaining the problem better to these frothing at the mouth lunatics would change things even remotely. I'm sure that regardless of her efforts the response would be the same, because nerd culture in a lot of ways is a disgusting hive of sexism and entitlement. 

 
Still, I can't help but respect her for her willingness to still be a public figure despite the insane, mind-boggling level of harassment she's been subject to for speaking up. 
 
It's not an especially great feminist critique of video games, but the attacks against her are all based on the fact that she dared to make a feminist critique of video games. And that more than anything shows what a hive of troglodyte sexist beliefs the industry has accumulated. 
 

Gamergate is worse and something I'm glad that Ms. Sarkessian isn't part of.  I made the mistake of looking into the details of that, and I saw some of the tweets as well.


Gamergate makes me physically ill. 


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#8278
In Exile

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Yeah, putting aside some of my own personal bias isn't easy either.  Still though, Anita's topic and the reaction it's gotten for good and for ill has had everybody start talking about this much more over the last few years.   Besides, after years of the crap I put up with in WoW and other games as a woman, I'm glad the rest of the gaming culture is starting to realize that this isn't okay.   I'm glad that more companies have been re-examining their behavior and polices towards ladies in video games more.   Her videos aren't only one out there, and not the only reason why folks are talking about this more, naturally.  If anything, more than her words, the reaction and behavior by self-admitted male gamers have illuminated some of the issues she was trying to address in her videos.  

 

It's rather damned sad that it took a controversial critic getting rape, death and bomb threats for the gaming industry to go, "I think we created a problem."

 

The tragedy, though, is that I don't see the industry saying that there's a problem. There are developers out there who have said this, and others who have taken a stand on it. But then you have other developers who have done the opposite, at least in the sense of saying it's not their problem. I don't want to name anyone because it might be painting them with too broad of a brush. I don't stay on top of this issue enough to say for sure. 

Still, there are developers - Blizzard, for example - that have said that they don't especially believe that any kind of message of social equality is part of their work, that coming up with female characters is hard 'cause they're all dudes and so they won't do it, which fees right into this problem. 


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#8279
Grieving Natashina

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The tragedy, though, is that I don't see the industry saying that there's a problem. There are developers out there who have said this, and others who have taken a stand on it. But then you have other developers who have done the opposite, at least in the sense of saying it's not their problem. I don't want to name anyone because it might be painting them with too broad of a brush. I don't stay on top of this issue enough to say for sure. 

Still, there are developers - Blizzard, for example - that have said that they don't especially believe that any kind of message of social equality is part of their work, that coming up with female characters is hard 'cause they're all dudes and so they won't do it, which fees right into this problem. 

Oh, Blizzard...oh battle.net.  <sigh>

 

I've been seeing more and more members of the game industry, not just the odd developer, talking about the place and issues of women in gaming.  So it isn't just a lone voice or two in the dark anymore.

 

If a company chooses that route, like Blizzard did, then I will respect their choice.  When WoW made it pretty clear for me that was the route they were taking (just don't ask me about Jania Proudmoore,) I respected them and made my own choice to close my wallet.  I just don't pay for WoW anymore.  I can't say I've boycotted the company or anything like that, because I enjoy the Diablo series immensely, and hope to see if Leah has a resolution to her story.

 

I'm asking and hoping for more companies to at least consider that choice in the future.  Thankfully, it looks like it's happening throughout the industry.  Ripples turning into waves, and all that.



#8280
puppyofwar

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I

 

The tragedy, though, is that I don't see the industry saying that there's a problem. There are developers out there who have said this, and others who have taken a stand on it. But then you have other developers who have done the opposite, at least in the sense of saying it's not their problem. I don't want to name anyone because it might be painting them with too broad of a brush. I don't stay on top of this issue enough to say for sure. 

Still, there are developers - Blizzard, for example - that have said that they don't especially believe that any kind of message of social equality is part of their work, that coming up with female characters is hard 'cause they're all dudes and so they won't do it, which fees right into this problem

I always felt that argument is broken, I mean come on, you can write demons, aliens, Eldritch Abominations, but human of different gender is too hard for you?


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#8281
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I don't know anything about Blizzard's policies, but my only character in D3 is female. A little stale character wise (hey, that's Diablo for you), but she's badass (Demon Hunter).


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#8282
Grieving Natashina

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I don't know anything about Blizzard's policies, but my only character in D3 is female. A little stale character wise (hey, that's Diablo for you), but she's badass (Demon Hunter).

She's great, aside from the heeled boots.  I've been a Diablo fan since the first game, and it's great fun.  I love playing co-op with my husband.  Funny thing is he prefers playing female characters when it can, because it's different from the norm.  He grumbles about the female barbarian armor sometimes.

 

It's just...when Blizzard writers attempt to give a female character growth in Warcraft over the last 5 years, it's not for the better or exactly progressive.



#8283
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She's great, aside from the heeled boots.  I've been a Diablo fan since the first game, and it's great fun.  I love playing co-op with my husband.  Funny thing is he prefers playing female characters when it can, because it's different from the norm.  He grumbles about the female barbarian armor sometimes.

 

It's just...when Blizzard writers attempt to give a female character growth in Warcraft over the last 5 years, it's not for the better or exactly progressive.

 

I stay away from WoW because I hate MMOs.. I always liked their lore though. I know who Jaina Proudmore is. Are you saying they made the character lame somehow?



#8284
puppyofwar

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I've been seeing more and more members of the game industry, not just the odd developer, talking about the place and issues of women in gaming.  So it isn't just a lone voice or two in the dark anymore.

 

Yeah, Naughty Dog complained when gaming magazines only show Joel on their coverage of the game, insisted Elle share the spotlight because she is just as important as he was. And Shinji Mikami discussed he prefer strong capable woman character in his game instead of damsel in distress. 

 

To quote Flemeth:"We stand upon the precipice of change." for better or worse


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#8285
puppyofwar

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I stay away from WoW because I hate MMOs.. I always liked their lore though. I know who Jaina Proudmore is. Are you saying they made the character lame somehow?

Their idea of character development is turn the only rational, pro-peace leader into a racist psychopath.



#8286
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I always felt that argument is broken, I mean come on, you can write demons, aliens, Eldritch Abominations, but human of different gender is too hard for you?

 
Apparently. It's just such a mind-boggling concept. 

 

I've been seeing more and more members of the game industry, not just the odd developer, talking about the place and issues of women in gaming.  So it isn't just a lone voice or two in the dark anymore.

 

Fair enough. I should say that, while I very much love video games, I don't actually play that wide a variety of them. And I don't follow developers all that closely, beside Bioware. 

 

If a company chooses that route, like Blizzard did, then I will respect their choice.  When WoW made it pretty clear for me that was the route they were taking (just don't ask me about Jania Proudmoore,) I respected them and made my own choice to close my wallet.  I just don't pay for WoW anymore.  I can't say I've boycotted the company or anything like that, because I enjoy the Diablo series immensely, and hope to see if Leah has a resolution to her story.

 

I'm asking and hoping for more companies to at least consider that choice in the future.  Thankfully, it looks like it's happening throughout the industry.  Ripples turning into waves, and all that.

 

I understand how you feel. CDPR and the TW series is what I struggle with in terms of backing. Especially because I was born and grew up in Eastern Europe until around age 10, so I actually have a pretty good idea as to the different beliefs that underlie views on gender (which, from a western POV, are simultaneously more and less progressive). 


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#8287
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Their idea of character development is turn the only rational, pro-peace leader into a racist psychopath.

 

Ah.. . Last I recall, I thought her dad was supposed to be that. Not her.



#8288
Grieving Natashina

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I stay away from WoW because I hate MMOs.. I always liked their lore though. I know who Jaina Proudmore is. Are you saying they made the character lame somehow?

Aside from removing clothing (she's got a lot of skin showing,) she's indecisive, bipolar, reckless, hot-headed, easily gives into her emotions.  She can't make up her mind between peace and the death of all blood elves everywhere. They changed her personality from one quest to the next in the huge chain from the current expansion.  They did all of this after her spending the latter half of an expansion (the one before the current one, Wrath of the Lich King) literally in tears constantly, and giving her a former Dragon Aspect husband in the EU.  She even talks about how much she'd like to settle down and have his half dragon babies in the comics.

 

Edit: @Puppy It depended upon the quest to a large extent too.

 

Jania was bad.  Tyrande's was so much worse.  They gave her heels, a very sparkly dress, removed some of the cloth (she has a mid-drift now,)  and no longer shows her as a leader except standing in Darnasuss.  Most notorious among fans was when the devs brought back her husband,  In a quest, when she is trying to advise on strategy, he tells her "Hush, Tyrande."  In the more recent EU, she talks about how helpless she felt without her husband for 10,00 years (quite the change from her in WC3.)

 

I could go on, but this is getting off-topic.


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#8289
Lady Nuggins

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I must say, this is the first time I've gotten a chance to have a civil discussion with people who disagree with FF, so thanks for that.  It's definitely given me much to think about.  This is why I continue to love everyone in this thread.  :lol: You guys are a glimmer of joy in a dark place.

 

The tragedy, though, is that I don't see the industry saying that there's a problem. There are developers out there who have said this, and others who have taken a stand on it. But then you have other developers who have done the opposite, at least in the sense of saying it's not their problem. I don't want to name anyone because it might be painting them with too broad of a brush. I don't stay on top of this issue enough to say for sure. 

Still, there are developers - Blizzard, for example - that have said that they don't especially believe that any kind of message of social equality is part of their work, that coming up with female characters is hard 'cause they're all dudes and so they won't do it, which fees right into this problem. 

 

As much as the past few months have made it really difficult to be a woman in gaming (I've followed the GG thing closely from the beginning, and some days it's made me feel physically ill), the huge amount of male devs, journalists, and other prominent members of the industry who have come out in support of women and diversity has been truly encouraging.  There are so many more on our side than it often seems.  


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#8290
Grieving Natashina

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I must say, this is the first time I've gotten a chance to have a civil discussion with people who disagree with FF, so thanks for that.  It's definitely given me much to think about.  This is why I continue to love everyone in this thread.  :lol: You guys are a glimmer of joy in a dark place.

 

 

That's why I felt it was safe to bring it up here.  I'm actually a fan of the Feminist Frequency's website and I enjoy their written articles a lot.  I think part of the reason why the conversation can remain so civil is that no one is really out to prove themselves right or the other person wrong.  We're just sharing our views without it getting personal.  It is a beautiful thing.   :D

 

 

As much as the past few months have made it really difficult to be a woman in gaming (I've followed the GG thing closely from the beginning, and some days it's made me feel physically ill), the huge amount of male devs, journalists, and other prominent members of the industry who have come out in support of women and diversity has been truly encouraging.  There are so many more on our side than it often seems.  

 

It indeed has come far in the last couple of years.  

 

It's funny, as much as folks care about representation in video games, I think part of it is related to creative stagnation.  More and more gamers as well as developers are sick of the same old thing year after year from our video games.  Combined that with a desire to be more socially aware and I think things are going to slowly change.  Sure, we'll always have our CoD type games and the protagonists that go along with it, but I see more choices coming up.

 

I wouldn't want the "white guy with the stubble" hero to go away entirely.  I would just like to see more variety out there, and not have that look/ideal dominate the market as much as it currently does.


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#8291
byne

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Their idea of character development is turn the only rational, pro-peace leader into a racist psychopath.

 

I mean lets ignore both the fact that her entire city was nuked by the Horde and she STILL tried to maintain neutrality until she was betrayed by members of the Horde YET AGAIN. Lets ignore the fact that she might have some form of PTSD from seeing everyone she loves die in a dishonorable horde attack and from seeing her apprentice literally crumble into dust before her eyes. Lets ignore the fact that the mana-bomb that destroyed her city affected her mind. Why are we ignoring all that? No clue but apparently we have to so we can lambast Blizzard! Jaina's mind was healed by Chi-Ji in the latest book anyways, but Jaina is more complex than she's been in years, and continues to be my favorite character in the lore.



#8292
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I wouldn't want the "white guy with the stubble" hero to go away entirely.  I would just like to see more variety out there, and not have that look/ideal dominate the market as much as it currently does.

 

I don't think it dominates as much as it did a few years ago. But then, I only know what I play. My last favorite games are Child of Light, Tomb Raider, and Walking Dead. And they're all successful commercially too, afaik. So maybe there's a trend.

 

edit: Oh, and GTA V... featuring a chubby middle aged guy.



#8293
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If I thought there would be some sort of civil and possibly interesting discourse, maybe (and not even then) but it's the usual suspects on show. Oh and the usual blanket statements that on the whole are meaningless in the grand scheme.

 

I tried so hard in that thread, even in spite of people saying, "All women are like this. All men are like that..." I ended up being ignored because I wasn't confrontational enough.



#8294
Grieving Natashina

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I tried so hard in that thread, even in spite of people saying, "All women are like this. All men are like that..." I ended up being ignored because I wasn't confrontational enough.

<hugs>  

 

All I can tell you is that they are probably more interested in debating with each other than actually discussing the point.  It's probably for the best that you weren't dragged into that mess.  


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#8295
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If you're going to change gamer culture, a little confrontation is necessary. Sorry to say. 

 

Not trolling btw. I urge constructiveness. I just mean some harmless trash talking, I guess...mixed in with intelligent points. :D



#8296
Grieving Natashina

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There's a point to bow out though.  I've seen threads hit that stage before, where any sense of humor is gone.  Any sort of trash talking isn't going to be seen as harmless by anyone that at that point.

 

It's like bad smog in LA.  After a point, it's time to just close your windows and stay indoors (so to speak.)  It's healthier for you that way.   ;)



#8297
In Exile

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I tried so hard in that thread, even in spite of people saying, "All women are like this. All men are like that..." I ended up being ignored because I wasn't confrontational enough.

 

Hug-Emoticon.gif

 

Frown upside-down time. 


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#8298
RevilFox

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I like the rational discourse going on here, but I'm upset at the lack of tea involved...


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#8299
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There's a point to bow out though.  I've seen threads hit that stage before, where any sense of humor is gone.  Any sort of trash talking isn't going to be seen as harmless by anyone that at that point.

 

It's like bad smog in LA.  After a point, it's time to just close your windows and stay indoors (so to speak.)  It's healthier for you that way.   ;)

 

Oh, I wouldn't necessarily indulge it for too long either. I just think if anyone has their mind set on changing things, they'll have to.



#8300
Lady Nuggins

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I like the rational discourse going on here, but I'm upset at the lack of tea involved...

 

I'm drinking tea at the moment, actually.  I'd offer you some, but they haven't invented a way for me to get it through the computer monitor yet. 


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