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[Grieving Natashina]

I like the rational discourse going on here, but I'm upset at the lack of tea involved...

Here you go:

 

[Grieving Natashina]

With a name like Kermit, you'd think he would drink something fancier than Lipton.

The 90s weren't an easy time for Kermit.  When Lipton offered the deal, he had to take it.  Bills to pay and all that.  

[Bugsie]

Wow, what a nice thing to wake up to!

You are all awesome! Now this is civil discourse that's interesting!

I've only seen the first couple of Anita's videos and have stopped watching the others because of the toxicity surrounding the debate and to be frank, I haven't wanted to engage with strangers on such a level, mainly because being a target for random hate is bs. I guess my criticism of the discussion is the context, it matters in books, movies and definitely in games and whilst Anita takes a lot out of context she makes valid points that are worth discussing further. Her job as a critic is no different to others who critique really, and why it constantly needs to be qualified with 'in her opinion' is a bit beyond me. Kudos to her for digging her heels in, it's a pity then the discussion can't go wider without the moronic behaviour surrounding it.

I tried so hard in that thread, even in spite of people saying, "All women are like this. All men are like that..." I ended up being ignored because I wasn't confrontational enough.

And kudos to you for trying!

If you're going to change gamer culture, a little confrontation is necessary. Sorry to say. 
 
Not trolling btw. I urge constructiveness. I just mean some harmless trash talking, I guess...mixed in with intelligent points.

yeah I agree, if people have the energy to engage and get others to walk in their shoes for a bit I'm pretty sure they'll see we just want richer storytelling and a wider variety of games available with different protagonists. How could that be a bad thing?

[RevilFox]

I've only watched one of her videos, but I agree about my issue with her being one of context. I've said this a few times in other threads, but I think it's important to point out that it's okay to have a character like Isabella in the same game you have Aveline, when neither of them are treated as being out of place or unique.

 

I also find it...odd at best, and problematic at worst to have someone who doesn't enjoy a medium to be reviewing it. People who hate horror movies are probably the worst type of people to review horror movies, for example.  I'm not sure if this applies to Anita or not, but someone posted a quote earlier that seemed to imply she didn't actually like video games. Even if she plays them but doesn't enjoy them, I'd say that could be a large part of the issue with her reviews. 

 

Also, and this is slightly off topic, but has anyone else heard of the new Neil Gaiman book The Princess and the Spindle? Here's the description:

 

On the eve of her wedding, a young queen sets out to rescue a princess from an enchantment. She casts aside her fine wedding clothes, takes her chain mail and her sword and follows her brave dwarf retainers into the tunnels under the mountain towards the sleeping kingdom. This queen will decide her own future - and the princess who needs rescuing is not quite what she seems.

[Lady Luminous]

I've only watched one of her videos, but I agree about my issue with her being one of context. I've said this a few times in other threads, but I think it's important to point out that it's okay to have a character like Isabella in the same game you have Aveline, when neither of them are treated as being out of place or unique.

 

I also find it...odd at best, and problematic at worst to have someone who doesn't enjoy a medium to be reviewing it. People who hate horror movies are probably the worst type of people to review horror movies, for example.  I'm not sure if this applies to Anita or not, but someone posted a quote earlier that seemed to imply she didn't actually like video games. Even if she plays them but doesn't enjoy them, I'd say that could be a large part of the issue with her reviews. 

 

Also, and this is slightly off topic, but has anyone else heard of the new Neil Gaiman book The Princess and the Spindle? Here's the description:

 

On the eve of her wedding, a young queen sets out to rescue a princess from an enchantment. She casts aside her fine wedding clothes, takes her chain mail and her sword and follows her brave dwarf retainers into the tunnels under the mountain towards the sleeping kingdom. This queen will decide her own future - and the princess who needs rescuing is not quite what she seems.

 

Ooh, thank you for that summary! I've never read Neil Gaiman before, but I may just have to start with this one!

[themikefest]

I just want to say that in a little over 3 weeks, I will be playing DAI and seeing how well my femquisitor will look

[Bugsie]

@RevilFox has she specificallysaid she doesn't enjoy the medium? I thought she has reiterated on a number of occasions that despite these tropes exisiting in the games she has actually enjoyed some of those very games she critiques? If you're right then, yeah a bit odd.

American gods is on my to read list, but I hadn't heard about his latest.

[Stelae]

@RevilFox has she specificallysaid she doesn't enjoy the medium? I thought she has reiterated on a number of occasions that despite these tropes exisiting in the games she has actually enjoyed some of those very games she critiques? If you're right then, yeah a bit odd.

American gods is on my to read list, but I hadn't heard about his latest.

It's a talking point her detractors make.  She said, years ago, (I'm paraphrasing) that although she's played games since she was five, she doesn't like games that are basically 'frag, loot, repeat.'  So, her detractors chopped off the first and last bits of that, and distributed it as proof she doesn't like games.  And added a bunch of conspiracy theory stuff to say that she wants to shut the gaming industry down, and so on and so forth, blah blah whargarble ...

 

Mind you, even if she didn't play games, a lot of movie critics don't have a formal background in film and have never made a movie in their life, and see films as part of their work rather than a relaxing night out, but they are still allowed to analyse them.  I'm not a 15th century Mantuan noblewoman, but I'm still allowed to write about Barbara of Brandenburg without anyone telling me I'm not qualified.  What she's doing --academic criticism of themes in games --would be just as legitimate if she were not a gamer. 

 

As to Gaiman -- boy,. are you in for a treat!  He's marvelous.  His Chivalry is one of the best short stories I have ever read. 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Well, I missed an...interesting discussion. I'd reply to parts, but it seems over now so I won't. 

[RevilFox]

I can go check.  Hopefully you can tell that I am not one of the people that hates her.

 

Few minutes of googling later...

 

 

This is from a college lecture that she did back in 2010:

 

@ 12:20 she admits to not being a fan of video games, and that she would "Love to play video games, but doesn't want to go around shooting people or ripping off their heads, that's just gross.":

 

Spoiler

 

So, she apparently doesn't play a lot of the games I've seen her review.  While this doesn't invalidate any of her arguments, or stances, and I still feel this is something that should be explored further, Anita herself is not a gamer.  I don't see her opinions about women in tropes as any less valid, but I did lose respect for her by a lot.  If she wants to critique games, that's her right.  I guess it would be easier for me to take her a bit more seriously if she actually played the games she was talking about.

 

Except TERA.  I wouldn't wish that on anyone.  

 

 

@RevilFox has she specificallysaid she doesn't enjoy the medium? I thought she has reiterated on a number of occasions that despite these tropes exisiting in the games she has actually enjoyed some of those very games she critiques? If you're right then, yeah a bit odd.

American gods is on my to read list, but I hadn't heard about his latest.

The above from a few pages ago was the quote I was talking about. I don't know anything about her, but that quote seems pretty clear. I don't think it invalidates her opinion, but I do find it problematic when anyone reviews something that they don't actually enjoy as a genre or medium. People who dislike Horror movies reviewing horror movies, for example. I hate games like God of War, so I wouldn't ever trust a review done by me of that genre. 

[Eudaemonium]

The above from a few pages ago was the quote I was talking about. I don't know anything about her, but that quote seems pretty clear. I don't think it invalidates her opinion, but I do find it problematic when anyone reviews something that they don't actually enjoy as a genre or medium. People who dislike Horror movies reviewing horror movies, for example. I hate games like God of War, so I wouldn't ever trust a review done by me of that genre. 

 

It's kind of a pretty old quote, though. I said a bunch of things back in 2010 that I no longer agree with. I don't really see how Sarkeesian stating back in 2010 that she didn't want to play games that she found icky means she 1) doesn't like games or 2) hasn't played them since for her research. That isn't to say her critique doesn't have its issues, but this isn't really one of them.

[Stelae]

The above from a few pages ago was the quote I was talking about. I don't know anything about her, but that quote seems pretty clear. I don't think it invalidates her opinion, but I do find it problematic when anyone reviews something that they don't actually enjoy as a genre or medium. People who dislike Horror movies reviewing horror movies, for example. I hate games like God of War, so I wouldn't ever trust a review done by me of that genre. 

See, what she's doing isn't a review.  It doesn't deal with whole games, and it doesn't compare games to each other.  She's not saying DAO is a good/bad game, for example; she's noting that it's one of many that uses elements of sexual violence against women to infuse a "gritty" character and establish who the villains are. When a lot of games do this, it becomes a trope.

 

So, she's highlighting aspects of individual games, building up a picture across whole genres and whole types of games, of common thematic elements.   She's showing how common and reflected ideas give a picture of the medium as a whole. 

[Eonetic]

It's kind of a pretty old quote, though. I said a bunch of things back in 2010 that I no longer agree with. I don't really see how Sarkeesian stating back in 2010 that she didn't want to play games that she found icky means she 1) doesn't like games or 2) hasn't played them since for her research. That isn't to say her critique doesn't have its issues, but this isn't really one of them.

She was lying she has said the she have played games since she was a child.Her quote from 2010 shows this was not the case.

 

With the amount of money she received from the kickstarter campaign she has produced a few 30 minute videos with several quite large mistakes an example would be the Hitman Absolution where she says the player is rewarded for killing strippers when the game actually punishes you for killing character apart from the target alltogether.Not to mention she have without permission used other peoples game footage for her videos.This makes me doubt that she has even played many of the games she criticises.

 

Womens issues and Feminism in games have been a long time coming.And when it finally does we get a lying incompetent fraud representing it -.-

 

 

and the follow up videos are some examples

[RevilFox]

It's kind of a pretty old quote, though. I said a bunch of things back in 2010 that I no longer agree with. I don't really see how Sarkeesian stating back in 2010 that she didn't want to play games that she found icky means she 1) doesn't like games or 2) hasn't played them since for her research. That isn't to say her critique doesn't have its issues, but this isn't really one of them.

That's fair, and to be honest I've only ever watched one of her videos and know really nothing about her beyond what was said in this thread. And I'm not really saying that she can't critique the games she does. My original point was only that I thought it was possible her predisposition to dislike the games that she's reviewing might be something people pick up one when watching her videos, even subconsciously, and causing some of the instant dismissal issues. I sort of got the feeling that she didn't really like video games as a medium on the one video I watched, and the quote I saw Natashina post seemed to back that up. If she didn't like video games before, I find it unlikely, although not impossible, that she would have suddenly started to enjoy them while doing these videos.

 

See, what she's doing isn't a review.  It doesn't deal with whole games, and it doesn't compare games to each other.  She's not saying DAO is a good/bad game, for example; she's noting that it's one of many that uses elements of sexual violence against women to infuse a "gritty" character and establish who the villains are. When a lot of games do this, it becomes a trope.

 

So, she's highlighting aspects of individual games, building up a picture across whole genres and whole types of games, of common thematic elements.   She's showing how common and reflected ideas give a picture of the medium as a whole. 

 

Sure, I get what she's doing, and I don't inherently have a problem with it. I do think that, when discussing this kind of thing, that context is very important. But Natashina made the point far better than I could have over the last few pages, as she has actual experience watching the videos.

[Eudaemonium]

That's fair, and to be honest I've only ever watched one of her videos and know really nothing about her beyond what was said in this thread. And I'm not really saying that she can't critique the games she does. My original point was only that I thought it was possible her predisposition to dislike the games that she's reviewing might be something people pick up one when watching her videos, even subconsciously, and causing some of the instant dismissal issues. I sort of got the feeling that she didn't really like video games as a medium on the one video I watched, and the quote I saw Natashina post seemed to back that up. If she didn't like video games before, I find it unlikely, although not impossible, that she would have suddenly started to enjoy them while doing these videos.

 

I got the impression she was just bored with the games a lot of the time, and to be honest if I had to sit around playing most of the games she plays, or even watching videos of them on YouTube, I'd probably get bored too. The tropes she points out are so prevalent that they become essentially banal, which makes them fairly dull viewing most of the time. Chances are she didn't enjoy them, but then neurobiologists probably don't enjoy dissecting gerbil brains either, but a lot of them still do it. Basically, the issue is that I don't really see how her enjoyment or lack thereof of titles like God of War (since you used it) have much impact on her commentary on problematic tropes used in God of War. The game would still use the tropes if she enjoyed playing it.

[Bugsie]

Thanks for the heads up on that Gaiman short Vian, sounds like an interesting read!

[Sully13]

Aaaaaaand i just saw Anita and im out before my internalised masogainy forces me to punch my TV. 

[Bugsie]

You should really get help for that 'masogainy' sounds like a painful ailment.

Tea anyone?

[Eudaemonium]

Tea is always welcome. I am British, don't you know.

 

*sips tea*

[Grieving Natashina]

Sure, I'll take some.  

[Sully13]

Tea is always welcome. I am British, don't you know.

 

*sips tea*

As am i iam also Dyslexic.. any milk?

 

As mutch as id love a female inquisitor added to the covers i was fine with how they did it on ME3 with the reversable covers. 

[RevilFox]

I got the impression she was just bored with the games a lot of the time, and to be honest if I had to sit around playing most of the games she plays, or even watching videos of them on YouTube, I'd probably get bored too. The tropes she points out are so prevalent that they become essentially banal, which makes them fairly dull viewing most of the time. Chances are she didn't enjoy them, but then neurobiologists probably don't enjoy dissecting gerbil brains either, but a lot of them still do it. Basically, the issue is that I don't really see how her enjoyment or lack thereof of titles like God of War (since you used it) have much impact on her commentary on problematic tropes used in God of War. The game would still use the tropes if she enjoyed playing it.

I guess the difference, to me, is that I don't think any of the tropes used are inherently bad, even if they're bad the majority of the time they're used. Lady Nuggins had a good post earlier about why the City Elf Origin was problematic, but I actually think that the female version of the origin came very close to being a positive version of that trope. If they had just focused more on the victim and less on the PC as a hero for saving them, it would have been. 

 

I don't think her enjoyment of the game changes what happens in the game, but I do think that if she does dislike these types of games then she's more likely to be looking for the trope to occur and less likely to be paying attention to the context of it. Which I think is important when it comes to this kind of discussion. 

[Bugsie]

Ah well my apologies for mocking you, considering one of the more recent posts, i couldnt help it, scone?