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[Eudaemonium]

It looks like Inquisition is going for the 'neutral' cover of the hand raised, which I do think is a great cover (much better than the ME3 cover, which reversible or not was a terrible cover). The issue with it is that our society is coded to read neutral as male about 90% of the time, so without any indication that the Inquisitor can be a woman (say on the back of the box) it will be passed over by people unfamiliar with the title.

 

This is why marketing is important regarding women Inquisitors, and by marketing I mean trailers and adverts, not twitch streams that are primarily done for the existing fan base rather than to draw in outsides. The fanbase already knows that we can play as a woman. Or at least I hope we do. I'm already kinda concerned about DA:I marketing strategy because it honestly seems fairly lacklustre. I haven't seen anything like the amount of real-world adverts for it like I did with Skyrim or (more recently) Shadow of Mordor.

[Sully13]

Probably the only way SJWs won't whine about it. mind you that being said is it a sexist hand?

 

Ah well my apologies for mocking you, considering one of the more recent posts, i couldnt help it, scone?

If that directed at me NAAAAAH no big deal i was more just pointing out the reason for the spelling mistake im imposible to offend.

No tah got any Ginger nuts?

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Guess I was wrong. This discussion isn't over.

[Sully13]

its not over till the fat dwarf sings.

[Eudaemonium]

I think we should all sit down and drink some tea before things potentially become inclement.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I think we should all sit down and drink some tea before things potentially become inclement.

I don't drink tea. 

[Bugsie]

I guess the difference, to me, is that I don't think any of the tropes used are inherently bad, even if they're bad the majority of the time they're used. Lady Nuggins had a good post earlier about why the City Elf Origin was problematic, but I actually think that the female version of the origin came very close to being a positive version of that trope. If they had just focused more on the victim and less on the PC as a hero for saving them, it would have been. 
 
I don't think her enjoyment of the game changes what happens in the game, but I do think that if she does dislike these types of games then she's more likely to be looking for the trope to occur and less likely to be paying attention to the context of it. Which I think is important when it comes to this kind of discussion.

I think tropes themselves aren't bad, but the phrase 'overused' has given them some sort of negative connotation in regard to story telling. It becomes a bit meaningless in the grand scheme because some really good stories have overused tropes. That's not to say we can't critique them when they become derogatory or advocate a stereotype in some way.

Not necessarily, you might be more inclined to miss it - but it's also possible to take it out of context. What gets me about the whole thing is that people find things problematic all the time. Film and books have problematic elements, yet when critics call that out I don't see death and rape threats as a common thing (interesting article I read about an author confessing to basically stalking an online book blogger because of a negative review, was pretty disturbing so not just games where this sort of thing happens)

[RevilFox]

It looks like Inquisition is going for the 'neutral' cover of the hand raised, which I do think is a great cover (much better than the ME3 cover, which reversible or not was a terrible cover). The issue with it is that our society is coded to read neutral as male about 90% of the time, so without any indication that the Inquisitor can be a woman (say on the back of the box) it will be passed over by people unfamiliar with the title.

 

This is why marketing is important regarding women Inquisitors, and by marketing I mean trailers and adverts, not twitch streams that are primarily done for the existing fan base rather than to draw in outsides. The fanbase already knows that we can play as a woman. Or at least I hope we do. I'm already kinda concerned about DA:I marketing strategy because it honestly seems fairly lacklustre. I haven't seen anything like the amount of real-world adverts for it like I did with Skyrim or (more recently) Shadow of Mordor.

I agree with this, for the most part. I can't remember if it was in this thread or not, but I've previously said that my order of prefernce for the box art would be

 

1. Clearly female main character

2. No main character

3. Ambiguous main character

4. Clearly male main character

 

Because you're absolutely right, if there's an ambiguous main character then the vast majority of people, both male and female, will just assume it's a male character, because that's what they're used to. I do it without even thinking about it.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I have to admit, when I read masogainy I thought they meant a combination of misogyny and misandry. 

[In Exile]

I agree with this, for the most part. I can't remember if it was in this thread or not, but I've previously said that my order of prefernce for the box art would be

 

1. Clearly female main character

2. No main character

3. Ambiguous main character

4. Clearly male main character

 

Because you're absolutely right, if there's an ambiguous main character then the vast majority of people, both male and female, will just assume it's a male character, because that's what they're used to. I do it without even thinking about it.

 

I personally prefer the Star Wars-esque poster of KoTOR. Though my first impression was that it featured Bastilla as the main character. 

[Eudaemonium]

I think tropes themselves aren't bad, but the phrase 'overused' has given them some sort of negative connotation in regard to story telling. It becomes a bit meaningless in the grand scheme because some really good stories have overused tropes. That's not to say we can't critique them when they become derogatory or advocate a stereotype in some way.

Not necessarily, you might be more inclined to miss it - but it's also possible to take it out of context. What gets me about the whole thing is that people find things problematic all the time. Film and books have problematic elements, yet when critics call that out I don't see death and rape threats as a common thing (interesting article I read about an author confessing to basically stalking an online book blogger because of a negative review, was pretty disturbing so not just games where this sort of thing happens)

 

Tropes are not bad, but overuse of tropes—even if not terrible in itself—betrays an extreme lack of creativity. This is doubly problematic when said tropes play into specific cultural ideologies regarding marginalise groups. Writing is never neutral, it always comes from a specific person in a specific place in a specific time, and when that place is the centre and the writing is about the periphery then certain unexamined attitudes will necessarily creep into the work. Often this is to the detriment of the narrative or the research if it's a non-fictional piece.

 

I think this is particularly the case with videogames because, let's be honest, they aren't exactly pinnacles of narrative complexity 98% of the time. The woman in the refrigerator isn't usually the catalyst for the deep, tortuous psychological examination of a male protagonist who resonates down through the ages as an icon of intricate moral complexity (and even if it was, the trope would still be worth critiquing), its the reason for the male protagonist to get big guns and shoot bad guys as part of a power-revenge fantasy. Tropes are worth examining even when they're used effectively, perhaps especially so, because they fit into a social context.

[Sully13]

Oh im far to dumb for that sory simple lack of spellcheck.

Easy solution Golem main character.

[Eudaemonium]

Easy solution Golem main character.

 

Golems are actually kinda interesting with regards to DA. After all, the revelation of Shale's (previous?) sex was basically geared to surprise us primarily because I think most people code giant, violent rock people as masculine. It was grounded specifically in the subverting of gender expectations.

[Sully13]

My point exactly. 

[RevilFox]

I'm going to ask a question that I would never ask in any other thread on these forums, but I'm honestly curious as to what the opinions on this are. I will edit the question out at the first sign of it not being treated as a respectful discussion. 

 

 

Which, if either, of the City Elf Origin or the Human Noble Origin is "worse" (in whatever context you'd like to take that word)?

[Sully13]

duno but i find human noble to be worse but thats more because i wanted a Peasant origin.

[In Exile]

Which, if either, of the City Elf Origin or the Human Noble Origin is "worse" (in whatever context you'd like to take that word)?

 

That's an interesting question. I have mixed feelings on that topic. In short, I think the CE origin is "worse" because of the way the male CE playthrough works. It falls into an incredible number of very damaging stereotypes not just about gender relations but about rape in particular and white-knighting power fantasies. I don't think the male HN story has quite the same problem, even though it does have problems, and so it's less "worse' (IMO). 

 

I've set out my reasons below.

 

I believe it was in this thread that Lady Nuggins discussed the issues in the CE origin in terms of playing it with a male PC vs. a female PC. I adopt her comments in full as my opinion on that subject. 

 

In terms of the HN, I think there is less of a difference in terms of the gender of the PC (aside from the M!HN + Iona going right back to disposable female LI as motivation for the protagonist; Bioware could have written it so that you two escape). But think about the NPC gender - why is Fergus the Cousland heir and husband? The entire origin (and indeed all of DA:O) could work just as well with a female older sibling, with the husband stuffed in the fridge. I think that choice is problematic, because while Fergus is generally irrelevant as a character the choice was still made to having him be the survivor in the regular masculine role. On the other hand, we do have a bit of a variance in the trope with Ma Cousland. Bioware could easily have written the entire scene to be set up with Bryce as the temporary companion who finds his wife mortally wounded at the end of the origin and choses to die with her, versus how Bioware executed the scene. 

[fdgvdddvdfdfbdfb]

I tried so hard in that thread, even in spite of people saying, "All women are like this. All men are like that..." I ended up being ignored because I wasn't confrontational enough.

But they're not shooters. That's mental illness duhhhh

 

People can dismiss women's issues all they want, misunderstanding feminism, as well as denying sexism.

But I'm pretty grateful for this:
http://kotaku.com/59...creepy-sex-plot

To the ladies at BioWare: thank you.

I dunno, I wanna at least know what it was now. And if it was good, I'd rather they have left it in even if it could be offensive. Which is to say, it's kinda like censoring? and I'm not a fan of that

[In Exile]

I dunno, I wanna at least know what it was now. And if it was good, I'd rather they have left it in even if it could be offensive. Which is to say, it's kinda like censoring? and I'm not a fan of that

 

From what I remember the issue was a tone problem. It was a creepy sex plot the game didn't recognize or play out as a creepy sex plot. It was never intended to be a creepy sex plot, so it was removed for failing to realize the actual vision behind the scene. I don't think it's censorship (i.e., wanting to do a creepy sex plot and then choosing not to so as to avoid offence), but rather effective editing (not wanting to do a creepy sex plot and reworking a scene to avoid a creepy sex plot). 

[Sully13]

Please can i just say dont trust Kotaku.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

In terms of the HN, I think there is less of a difference in terms of the gender of the PC (aside from the M!HN + Iona going right back to disposable female LI as motivation for the protagonist; Bioware could have written it so that you two escape). But think about the NPC gender - why is Fergus the Cousland heir and husband? The entire origin (and indeed all of DA:O) could work just as well with a female older sibling, with the husband stuffed in the fridge. I think that choice is problematic, because while Fergus is generally irrelevant as a character the choice was still made to having him be the survivor in the regular masculine role. On the other hand, we do have a bit of a variance in the trope with Ma Cousland. Bioware could easily have written the entire scene to be set up with Bryce as the temporary companion who finds his wife mortally wounded at the end of the origin and choses to die with her, versus how Bioware executed the scene. 

To be fair, there was the guy you could sleep with too who suffers the same fate as Iona. 

As for Fergus being the heir, he was the oldest so why wouldn't he be the heir? 

[Sully13]

To be fair, there was the guy you could sleep with too who suffers the same fate as Iona. 

As for Fergus being the heir, he was the oldest so why wouldn't he be the heir? 

Fair point.

Oh btw fergus is still alive apparently. 

[In Exile]

To be fair, there was the guy you could sleep with too who suffers the same fate as Iona. 

As for Fergus being the heir, he was the oldest so why wouldn't he be the heir? 

 

Yes, but there isn't a trope around disposable male LIs used for motivation/effect. 

 

Re: Fergus, I should clarify. What I mean is that there's no real reason why the same role as Fergus couldn't be filled by an older sister, with her husband being stuffed in the fridge. And that would violate the trope rather than fit into the woman in the fridge trope. I

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Yes, but there isn't a trope around disposable male LIs used for motivation/effect. 

 

Re: Fergus, I should clarify. What I mean is that there's no real reason why the same role as Fergus couldn't be filled by an older sister, with her husband being stuffed in the fridge. And that would violate the trope rather than fit into the woman in the fridge trope. I

But there is one about disposable men. The 'Men Are The Expendable Gender' trope. 

In truth, I don't like this whole "Let's replace a trope with a trope" thing. It rings of double standards.