9318 réponses à ce sujet

[Wulfsten]

Except it's not. It's one thing to say that there is social value in portraying a particular grim social issue. But the idea that there isn't a balance between the social value and the impact on people who've been traumatized is absurd. 

 

There is a balance, I think everyone would agree. I think a lot of people are skewed very heavily towards "you have a right to express yourself however you wish" rather than "you have a right not to be offended". 

 

That's what we have rating warnings for (in Australia, they are very specific; DAI is  MA15+ Strong fantasy violence and sexual references, Online interactivity).  You can get very specific information about what led to a game getting the rating it got, precisely because some people want to avoid particular content.  Of course, if you're a survivor of violent crime and you decide you're going to play Shooty McBlastemup 15; The Blaminating, you can't act surprised when there's violence. 

 

Games can, of course, contain disturbing content; no one is suggesting they should be designed without adult content and stuff some people are going to find disturbing.  But although sexual assault and murder are both trivialised in games, one affects women disproportionately. And it does so not for good, solid story reasons, but as a stupid, lazy trope. 

 

If you're worried about triggering PTSD reactions in rape survivors, then yes, I agree, we should put rating warnings which make it clear that the game features instances of sexualised violence. Problem solved, in my opinion. 

 

I'm not nearly as averse to rape being featured in a story as much as others, but I don't think you can say it's equal to murder either. And not for any of the reasons everyone else has given. I can't even say why it is, but it somehow is just worse. Murder is one of the most common activites in gaming, but just ask yourself this, would you be comfortable playing a game where you routinely rape people?

 

Having said that I do think murder is treated way too lightly. Especially in the sense that characters who take part in mass murders (sometimes of innocents or people just doing their job) being celebrated as heroic good guys. Killing guards never sits well with me unless it's GTA or something.

 

I think it's useful and necessary to make a distinction between murder and killing. Most player characters in games engage in a whole lot of killing, but almost no murder. Everyone they kill is usually attacking them, or attacking someone else. This does not constitute murder in a strict ethical sense. So it's not right to equate the two.

 

That said, there are games where you CAN just go around murdering people, like GTA. And there are games (including Dragon Age) where you can commit murder and play the assassin. These games don't allow you to go around raping people willy-nilly not because rape is worse than murder, but because rape has a sexual element to it, and Western society is incredibly prudish about anything sexual. 

 

In every context that matters, rape is a FAR less serious crime than murder. Certainly this is the case in a legal context. And in a personal context, I can't really think of anyone who would genuinely rather be killed than be raped, or would prefer if their son/daughter were killed instead of raped. I certainly wouldn't, and I think people who talk about rape as if it's a "fate worse than death" are speaking from a deeply sexist and sexually twisted mindset where being sexually despoiled is the worst thing that can happen to a woman, because she is now "sullied", and is the worst thing that can happen to a man, because he is now "gay".

 

It's a disgusting sentiment, in my opinion, and we should get the heck over it. Rape is not as bad as murder.

[fdgvdddvdfdfbdfb]

There is a balance, I think everyone would agree. I think a lot of people are skewed very heavily towards "you have a right to express yourself however you wish" rather than "you have a right not to be offended". 

 

 

If you're worried about triggering PTSD reactions in rape survivors, then yes, I agree, we should put rating warnings which make it clear that the game features instances of sexualised violence. Problem solved, in my opinion. 

 

 

I think it's useful and necessary to make a distinction between murder and killing. Most player characters in games engage in a whole lot of killing, but almost no murder. Everyone they kill is usually attacking them, or attacking someone else. This does not constitute murder in a strict ethical sense. So it's not right to equate the two.

 

That said, there are games where you CAN just go around murdering people, like GTA. And there are games (including Dragon Age) where you can commit murder and play the assassin. These games don't allow you to go around raping people willy-nilly not because rape is worse than murder, but because rape has a sexual element to it, and Western society is incredibly prudish about anything sexual. 

 

In every context that matters, rape is a FAR less serious crime than murder. Certainly this is the case in a legal context. And in a personal context, I can't really think of anyone who would genuinely rather be killed than be raped, or would prefer if their son/daughter were killed instead of raped. I certainly wouldn't, and I think people who talk about rape as if it's a "fate worse than death" are speaking from a deeply sexist and sexually twisted mindset where being sexually despoiled is the worst thing that can happen to a woman, because she is now "sullied", and is the worst thing that can happen to a man, because he is now "gay".

 

It's a disgusting sentiment, in my opinion, and we should get the heck over it. Rape is not as bad as murder.

Breaking and entering a place and then killing the guards (ala shepard and others) seems pretty much like murder to me.

 

I was going to say rape almost never serves a higher purpose while murder usually does (even if it's completely immoral and selfish like Nathan Drake and his treasures). But actually come to think of it you're right, a lot of the "evil" decisions in Bioware games make no contextual sense at all.

 

But no I don't think murder is as disturbing as rape, and certainly not because of prudishness.There's just something about it, it's a drawn out and graphic ordeal, I'd say it's on par with torture for me.

 

I'm really don't see how western society is prudish though? Unless by western society you mean USA. Who do you think are the least prudish, the Indians?

[Wulfsten]

Disgusting? I think you can find better targets for disgust. Like the actual rapists. Or maybe people who eat cow tongues. Or the baby who smears himself in his own poo . Anything!

 

Not the people who hate rape (however extremely). If you have to express disgust at what amounts to righteous and/or personal indignation, then I don't know what say. That's a strange sense of priorities.

 

I don't think it has anything to do with "being gay" or "sullied" either. Personally, I relate it more to thievery -- just the worst kind. Theft of personal space and body. The mentality of the thief lingers there though. The type of person going through life with complete disregard for anyone else's will or sense of space, taking at their own pleasure. And while murder can rarely be justified, murderers don't always do it for the same reasons. Some murderers' motivations are twisted forms of justice or reality, and not just malice. A rapist however always rapes for the above reasons. It's always malicious and always sadistic. The worst kind of human being will engage in it, every time.

 

I am also disgusted with rapists, and obviously much more so. My disgust is broad.

 

I agree that the thievery narrative is relevant to rape, but I think that it's caught up in a lot of genuinely unhealthy attitudes towards sex and the importance of it, and the value you lose if it is forced on you. I agree with you that the mindset of rapists is often more reprehensible than that of murderers, but I would caution you to remember that history is littered with examples of women being raped as a form of justice or corrective punishment. Or even as a form of ethnic cleansing. These horrific people probably thought what they were doing was right. Doesn't make it any less immoral. 

 

 

Breaking and entering a place and then killing the guards (ala shepard and others) seems pretty much like murder to me.

 

I was going to say rape almost never serves a higher purpose while murder usually does (even if it's completely immoral and selfish like Nathan Drake and his treasures). But actually come to think of it you're right, a lot of the "evil" decisions in Bioware games make no contextual sense at all.

 

But no I don't think murder is as disturbing as rape, and certainly not because of prudishness.There's just something about it, it's a drawn out and graphic ordeal, I'd say it's on par with torture for me.

 

I'm really don't see how western society is prudish though? Unless by western society you mean USA. Who do you think are the least prudish, the Indians?

 

When Shepard breaks and enters it's usually with good reason, and because the galaxy might be destroyed if he doesn't. He usually doesn't break into some random dude's home and kill everyone. But yes, there's a lot of scope to be properly, murderously evil in Bioware games. 

 

You say that you think rape is more disturbing than murder, and I might even agree with that. I was talking about whether it's worse, or more serious. Also, I don't think anyone has objections to the presentation of torture in video games - indeed, it's sometimes even made fun of. Rape is a much, much more sensitive issue, and I do think it's because of the sexual element that makes us uncomfortable. 

 

Western society is massively prudish about sex, and I'm including the UK. That's why here a film can be rated 15 if it shows gratuitous bloody violence, sadism and cruelty, as well as copious profanity, but if you make a sweet, romantic film that features a consensual, romantic love scene and even a HINT of female pubic hair is shown (and my understanding is that female pubic hair is regarded as more serious than male pubic hair), it's an automatic 18. That's a seriously sick attitude towards sex.

 

I'm not saying it's better anywhere else (certainly not India), but when we're talking about video games, we're usually talking about Western society. And Japan, but let's not even get near their attitude to sex. 

[Decepticon Leader Sully]

Disgusting? I think you can find better targets for disgust. Like the actual rapists. Or maybe people who eat cow tongues. Or the baby who smears himself in his own poo . Anything!

 

Not the people who hate rape (however extremely). If you have to express disgust at what amounts to righteous and/or personal indignation, then I don't know what say. That's a strange sense of priorities.

 

I don't think it has anything to do with "being gay" or "sullied" either. Personally, I relate it more to thievery -- just the worst kind. Theft of personal space and body. The mentality of the thief lingers there though. The type of person going through life with complete disregard for anyone else's will or sense of space, taking at their own pleasure. And while murder can rarely be justified, murderers don't always do it for the same reasons. Some murderers' motivations are twisted forms of justice or reality, and not just malice. A rapist however always rapes for the above reasons. It's always malicious and always sadistic. The worst kind of human being will engage in it, every time.

whats wrong with eating cow toung?

 

Ok as a.. as some one who has been attacked 3 times in her life and was raped once.. by a woman i might add so no its not just guys.

any way the idiots who say that its not the womans responsability to protect themselve and you should just teach men not to rape are idiots.

Ok the 1 in 5 odds thats false and has been debunked countless times. it was deliberately falsefied after the studdy found that men gave the same responces to the questions of the studdy.  

something like "Have you ever been forced to have sex when you didnt want to?"

the numders were bout 47% yes for men and arround 49% for women.

So the questions were made more vague for the women to increace the numbers.

"Have you ever felt scaired at any time?"  

And for the guys

" have you ever been penitrated?"

never trust thee studdy and alwats do a little digging.

the honey badgers have done a bit about this topic.

[Decepticon Leader Sully]

Just tastes like beef if your interested its pretty good actualy i recomend it.

but then again i'm Scottish and i eat Haggis and deep fat fried Kabab meat Pizza.

 

Now this is a topic i like.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I've always wondered about this - how could you decide want you wanted your character to look like before the character creator was revealed?

 

Personally I never decide on what my character is going to look like, be like or romance, until these options are revealed. Otherwise I'm just setting myself up for disappointment. 

I didn't start having doubts until after Bioware showed us a lot of gameplay and a large array of CC options. 

Before that, Dwarf was out because I don't really like playing as a Dwarf so wasn't going to be my first run, Elf was out because of us having to be a Vallaslin-wearing Dalish. Then the CC was shown and removed Qunari from the list and lastly the Human was removed because I haven't seen a single article of clothing or armor that looks like what I want on them. Thus it was decided that Female Inquisitor wasn't happening first so I decided to play as a Male first. 

[puppyofwar]

Disgusting? I think you can find better targets for disgust. Like the actual rapists. Or maybe people who eat cow tongues. Or the baby who smears himself in his own poo . Anything!

 

 

Hey now, I'll have you know that grill cow tongues are very good.

[Kierro Ren]

Um... how does gays, rape, cow tongue, baby's covered its own feces, have ANYTHING to do with DA:I or Could we please see more Lady inquisitor?

[Lennard Testarossa]

It's always malicious and always sadistic. The worst kind of human being will engage in it, every time.

 

But that's nonsense. This "all rapists are monsters" attitude is precisely why the lazy trope of declaring characters villains by having them commit some act of sexual violence exists. In reality, it's simply not true. Humans are complex creatures. Rape was (and is) exceedingly common in wars, and the reason for that isn't that soldiers are simply terrible people by nature.

[Wulfsten]

Um... how does gays, rape, cow tongue, baby's covered its own feces, have ANYTHING to do with DA:I or Could we please see more Lady inquisitor?

 

Agreed. To get back on topic, I would be massively in favour of using a female Inquisitor as the default in media for the game... that said I'm very pleased overall with the female characters in the Dragon Age universe, especially Dragon Age 2. But even Dragon Age: Origins had some wonderful examples of fleshed out female characters, notably Anora, Wynne, Branka and Flemeth. Leliana and Morrigan felt a bit too shackled because their character arcs were too tied up in the fact that they were love interests for the Warden.

[puppyofwar]

Agreed. To get back on topic, I would be massively in favour of using a female Inquisitor as the default in media for the game... that said I'm very pleased overall with the female characters in the Dragon Age universe, especially Dragon Age 2. But even Dragon Age: Origins had some wonderful examples of fleshed out female characters, notably Anora, Wynne, Branka and Flemeth. Leliana and Morrigan felt a bit too shackled because their character arcs were too tied up in the fact that they were love interests for the Warden.

HOW DARE YOU  You forget Aveline, the greatest female character in Bioware history, and the one  I aspire to become.

 

She is a strong,self-made woman, who work her way up to become guard captain. Maintaining her sense of Justice but still pragmatic. Admire by her men and beloved by friends. 

 

I just.....adore her. I usually can't stand paladin/lawful good characters, but Aveline is just perfect.

[Eudaemonium]

Agreed. To get back on topic, I would be massively in favour of using a female Inquisitor as the default in media for the game... that said I'm very pleased overall with the female characters in the Dragon Age universe, especially Dragon Age 2. But even Dragon Age: Origins had some wonderful examples of fleshed out female characters, notably Anora, Wynne, Branka and Flemeth. Leliana and Morrigan felt a bit too shackled because their character arcs were too tied up in the fact that they were love interests for the Warden.

 

This is a decent point. I frequently find that romancible characters in general tend to have much weaker story arcs than characters who aren't. This is probably due to a number of factors, one is (likely) because of the restrictions placed on their development by the need to integrate the (potential for) romance into the character arc. The other is the simple way the characters are written. I think it was back in the DA2 days when people were clamouring for a Varric romance, one of the writers mentioned that when they write romances they basically write them with 'issues' that relate to the relationship. Basically that the character has to have some kind of internal tension that leads to romantic drama (and because of the mutability of the PC, this tension basically has to be entirely contained to the character and their circumstances). This means that a Varric or an Aveline (and presumably a Vivienne) if romancible would essentially be written as radically different characters in certain key aspects. The result, however, is that non-romancible characters often seem to have more to them at times. Mass Effect was worse in this respect because it actually gated significant character content based on the romance, and thus characters like Jack, Miranda, Tali, Thane, and Jacob would simply stop talking to you if you had neither the desire nor the physiology to romance them). DA games have usually been better—I felt that Morrigan's friendship route was as good as, if not better than, her romance arc in many ways.

 

DA2 did it better. Merrill at least had a pretty interesting arc, especially if it ends with her smashing the mirror. I found Isabela had a weaker arc, but that was partly because I found her reasons for staying in Kirkwall to be a bit too underdeveloped. I think this is generally an issue with DA2 having massive problems portraying the passage of time, though.

 

Basically what this comes down to is 'I'll be interested as to how DA:I handles romancible character arcs when the player is not romancing them).'

[Eudaemonium]

Hmm, I like Leliana for all the things that have nothing to do with Romance. I like her private take on theology.. her contradictions with the Chantry. Her individualism is kind of a modern, subjective take on religion. "I know what I know.. I know what I feel", etc.. She gets bundled often with the Chantry thing, but she actually believes in a subtly different Maker than anything the Chantry preaches.

 

This is pretty good comment on Leliana. She very much subscribes to a modern privatised concept of religion which is pretty at odds with established Chantry practice. Honestly, if she didn't have such a close relationship with Divine Justinia, I wouldn't be shocked if she'd be branded as a heretic. She actually might now if Justinia turns out to have died in the Breach explosion.

[Lady Luminous]

HOW DARE YOU  You forget Aveline, the greatest female character in Bioware history, and the one  I aspire to become.

 

She is a strong,self-made woman, who work her way up to become guard captain. Maintaining her sense of Justice but still pragmatic. Admire by her men and beloved by friends. 

 

I just.....adore her. I usually can't stand paladin/lawful good characters, but Aveline is just perfect.

 

Except for being made out of plasticine.  I avoided her in my one and only playthrough of DA 2. 

[phantomrachie]

I didn't start having doubts until after Bioware showed us a lot of gameplay and a large array of CC options. 

Before that, Dwarf was out because I don't really like playing as a Dwarf so wasn't going to be my first run, Elf was out because of us having to be a Vallaslin-wearing Dalish. Then the CC was shown and removed Qunari from the list and lastly the Human was removed because I haven't seen a single article of clothing or armor that looks like what I want on them. Thus it was decided that Female Inquisitor wasn't happening first so I decided to play as a Male first. 

 

Looks like you want? That suggests to me that you decided what you wanted your character to look like & now you can't you're disappointed.

 

I genuinely don't get people being upset with the character creation options. Could it be better? sure, there could be more Qunari hair but it's 100% better than the cc in the last two games.

 

We can ask for more for the next game of course but I don't understand why some people are so upset by it, considering how much they've improved it and considering that a year ago the Qunari weren't even a playable race.

 

 

Except for being made out of plasticine.  I avoided her in my one and only playthrough of DA 2. 

 

You missed out Aveline, is in my top 5 list of DA companions. In no particular order, Aveline, Varric, Isabela, Morrigan and Leliana.

 

The Long Road - helping Aveline and Donnic get together, has some great moments in it and I still laugh out loud at the banter between Isabela and Varric about the friend fiction Isabela wrote about Aveline.

 

Besides everyone in DA2 looked like that, the skin was very unblemished in that game.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Looks like you want? That suggests to me that you decided what you wanted your character to look like & now you can't you're disappointed.

 

I genuinely don't get people being upset with the character creation options. Could it be better? sure, there could be more Qunari hair but it's 100% better than the cc in the last two games.

 

We can ask for more for the next game of course but I don't understand why some people are so upset by it, considering how much they've improved it and considering that a year ago the Qunari weren't even a playable race.

I was referring to the styles of armor in that part of my post, not the CC. 

[Decepticon Leader Sully]

Female armor looks good to me. as long as its nt the stupid boob armor you tend to get. 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Female armor looks good to me. as long as its nt the stupid boob armor you tend to get. 

They went too far in the other direction in my opinion.

[Lady Luminous]

 

You missed out Aveline, is in my top 5 list of DA companions. In no particular order, Aveline, Varric, Isabela, Morrigan and Leliana.

 

The Long Road - helping Aveline and Donnic get together, has some great moments in it and I still laugh out loud at the banter between Isabela and Varric about the friend fiction Isabela wrote about Aveline.

 

Besides everyone in DA2 looked like that, the skin was very unblemished in that game.

 

Eh, maybe I'll reply at some point and try and use her. In the meantime, I like hearing everyone else's stories. 

 

I feel badly, but I didn't mind the other girls in the party, but I cringed to look at Aveline. Yes, I'm an awful person, I know. 

[fdgvdddvdfdfbdfb]

They went too far in the other direction in my opinion.

Huh? Does this mean there's no boob armour? YESSSSSSSS

[Ryzaki]

I like the armor...

 

 

Though yeah I admit the CC put a real damper on my desire to play a lady Qunari. The mudbun kind of killed it for me. And the way human lady walks has me smh. Oh well I'll play my human lady anyway and hope for a casual apparel recolor >_> I don't think that shade will do her any favors.