9318 réponses à ce sujet

[fdgvdddvdfdfbdfb]

I've always loved action movies, and have also always hated romance movies--nothing but a bunch of sexist, misogynist tripe, the lot of them--but it really had little to do with the hot white men and shipping them, and more to do with the guns and explosions. I like guns and I like explosions. I dislike movies about how some dude can treat a woman like crap for a whole film, run to an airport to stop her from actually being rid of him with a bunch of flowers, and have her magically forget he's a douchebag. Ugh. I also dislike crying and long, boring expository love confessions. Who ever even talks like that?

lol. I wasn't speaking about you specifically, but that's what most teenagers are doing. And although I've seen exactly what you described, chick flicks aren't all bad, go watch um, 13 going on 30, it's probably the complete opposite of that.

[Mes]

Anyway you'll find that with recent movies female fans greatly enjoy gawking at the handsome white males while gay shipping them.

 

 

I've heard comments like this a lot, usually used to discount female interest in types of shows or movies that are stereotypically "male."

 

For instance, Steven Moffat (one of the co-creators of the BBC show Sherlock) was once asked why the show has such a huge female following. Know what he said? He said that it's because women want to get into Sherlock's pants and be the ones to "melt that iceburg."

 

It's no secret that a lot of people are attracted to Benedict Cumberbatch (*raises own hand enthusiastically*), but to say that an entire gender only watches this great show because they're horny for the lead is disrespectful, sexist, misogynistic.

 

Women watch Sherlock because it's a smart and entertaining show. The fact that someone may or may not be deemed attractive on that show is icing on the cake, nothing more.

 

No one ever says to the male population "You only like to watch Transformers because you have the hots for Megan Fox," but somehow it's an okay thing to say to women?

 

Saying that women are interested in a movie or whatever because of the gay shipping and gawking is highly disrespectful, to me, of women's intelligence and merit.

[Darth Krytie]

lol. I wasn't speaking about you specifically, but that's what most teenagers are doing. And although I've seen exactly what you described, chick flicks aren't all bad, go watch um, 13 going on 30, it's probably the complete opposite of that.

 

Does it have guns and/or explosions and/or sword fighting and/or zombies and/or superheroes? Because if not, I probably won't care enough.

 

 

Oh, I totally write fanfic with two dudes banging each other. It's just not the reason I watch movies. 

 

 

But, to get back on topic...lol.

 

Marketing male-dominated things towards women. It's getting better than it used to be, but also worse in other ways. (Gender-neutral products getting dude-only commercials. Dr. Pepper Ten, anyone? *rolls eyes* or Slim Jims? filled with "menergy") I've watched football since I was 12-13, but it's only been in the last three years or so that I've seen women in football ads that weren't some sort of horrible stereotype of a nagging wife or half-naked. They even are marketing NFL clothes directly to women. YAY.

 

So, it can be done. And it can be done well. With that, I see no reason why a few ads our way in the gaming industry can't just be standard business practice in the next few years... It makes perfect sense to me.

[fdgvdddvdfdfbdfb]

Well for one...Breaking Bad is quite arguably a character portrait about what it means to be male in our society and the way in which power and the pursuit of it influences men who feel they have none. That said....(straight) men aren't ever included in media "for the sake of inclusion". They're just there. Because its expected. Women however are constantly held to this bar of, "well why does she haveta be a woman? How does that impact the story?" SOOOO many articles about this topic, particularly on gaming forums say things like 'I'm fine with a female/person of color/gay character as long as it isn't forced'. That is literally the weakest argument there is because it isn't one that works both ways. "I'm fine with a male/white/straight character as long as it isn't forced.'

I'm not saying an obese indian gay indian female character have to be given justification to be written in. I'm saying a writer should feel free to write the story they had in mind instead of worrying about lobby groups and accountants.

 

If the way for better representation of non straight white males is to have better representation in the people responsible for the production, then that's what we should push for instead.

 

 

 

ARTISTIC INTEGRITY

[fdgvdddvdfdfbdfb]

I've heard comments like this a lot, usually used to discount female interest in types of shows or movies that are stereotypically "male."

 

For instance, Steven Moffat (one of the co-creators of the BBC show Sherlock) was once asked why the show has such a huge female following. Know what he said? He said that it's because women want to get into Sherlock's pants and be the ones to "melt that iceburg."

 

It's no secret that a lot of people are attracted to Benedict Cumberbatch (*raises own hand enthusiastically*), but to say that an entire gender only watches this great show because they're horny for the lead is disrespectful, sexist, misogynistic.

 

Women watch Sherlock because it's a smart and entertaining show. The fact that someone may or may not be deemed attractive on that show is icing on the cake, nothing more.

 

No one ever says to the male population "You only like to watch Transformers because you have the hots for Megan Fox," but somehow it's an okay thing to say to women?

 

Saying that women are interested in a movie or whatever because of the gay shipping and gawking is highly disrespectful, to me, of women's intelligence and merit.

Read my post and what I was responding to, when did I even imply it was the only reason?

 

also, isn't megan fox the only reason guys watch transformers?

[Darth Krytie]

I'm not saying an obese indian gay indian female character have to be given justification to be written in. I'm saying a writer should feel free to write the story they had in mind instead of worrying about lobby groups and accountants.

 

If the way for better representation of non straight white males is to have better representation in the people responsible for the production, then that's what we should push for instead.

 

 

 

ARTISTIC INTEGRITY

 

Yeah, but there's also the bit where even characters who are definitely not white. Not in history. Not in any manifestation. Still get portrayed by white people. A:TLA is proof. Johnny Depp as Tonto is proof.  The guy who wasn't Kevin Sorbo, but played the Prince of Persia is proof.  John Wayne as Ghengis Khan. Laurence Oliver as Othello. I could go on.

 

Just. At least let the people who aren't white be played by their rightful race/ethnicity would be an improvement.

[fdgvdddvdfdfbdfb]

Marketing male-dominated things towards women. It's getting better than it used to be, but also worse in other ways. (Gender-neutral products getting dude-only commercials. Dr. Pepper Ten, anyone? *rolls eyes* or Slim Jims? filled with "menergy")

Yeah I've been seeing this crisp ad on telly that's supposedly manlier because of the deeper grooves. Certainly odd, but hardly offensive to me.

[fdgvdddvdfdfbdfb]

Yeah, but there's also the bit where even characters who are definitely not white. Not in history. Not in any manifestation. Still get portrayed by white people. A:TLA is proof. Johnny Depp as Tonto is proof.  The guy who wasn't Kevin Sorbo, but played the Prince of Persia is proof.  John Wayne as Ghengis Kan. Laurence Oliver as Othello. I could go on.

 

Just. At least let the people who aren't white be played by their rightful race/ethnicity would be an improvement.

Yeah that's ****** terrible. It's been done in "true" stories like "21". Johnny Depp is supposedly 1/100th native american or something.

 

At least we haven't had a male joan of arc yet. but interestingly I think there's a female watson in one of the many thousand sherlock shows floating around.

[Mes]

Read my post and what I was responding to, when did I even imply it was the only reason?

 

 

Lol I read AND quoted it. I didn't say you thought it was the only reason, either.

 

You wanna elaborate on your thoughts?

[Allan Schumacher]

I'm not saying an obese indian gay indian female character have to be given justification to be written in. I'm saying a writer should feel free to write the story they had in mind instead of worrying about lobby groups and accountants.

 

If the way for better representation of non straight white males is to have better representation in the people responsible for the production, then that's what we should push for instead.

 

 

 

ARTISTIC INTEGRITY

 

The challenge with this, I've started to learn, is that writers often do want to write this stuff in but it gets vetoed out by superiors.  I remember reading a recount from one of the leads on Sudeki, who shared that he was explicitly told to make a black character whiter as it'd be more appropriate for the "target demographic" (Japan).

[fdgvdddvdfdfbdfb]

It's certainly not "discount female interest in types of shows or movies that are stereotypically "male."".

 

I was responding to someone else, who was proclaiming the abundance of male action stars is a huge problem for attracting female audiences, and I'm like *snickers*.

 

That's pretty much the extent of it

[Mes]

It's certainly not "discount female interest in types of shows or movies that are stereotypically "male."".

 

I was responding to someone else, who was proclaiming the abundance of male action stars is a huge problem for attracting female audiences, and I'm like *snickers*.

 

That's pretty much the extent of it

 

Oh okay hehe.

[Hellion Rex]

The challenge with this, I've started to learn, is that writers often do want to write this stuff in but it gets vetoed out by superiors.  I remember reading a recount from one of the leads on Sudeki, who shared that he was explicitly told to make a black character whiter as it'd be more appropriate for the "target demographic" (Japan).

O___O

 

Please tell me you're joking, Allan. That's completely ridiculous.

[Darth Krytie]

O___O

 

Please tell me you're joking, Allan. That's completely ridiculous.

 

It makes perfect sense to me. (Not that I approve of racism, but more referring to the climate of race-issues there). My friend, who is half-white, half-black, lived and worked in Japan for five years. She encountered a lot more racism there than she did living in the US.

[fdgvdddvdfdfbdfb]

The challenge with this, I've started to learn, is that writers often do want to write this stuff in but it gets vetoed out by superiors.  I remember reading a recount from one of the leads on Sudeki, who shared that he was explicitly told to make a black character whiter as it'd be more appropriate for the "target demographic" (Japan).

yup that's what I'm talking about, that just shouldn't happen, but I think it should go both ways.

 

I suppose movies and tv are different since the ethnicities of characters aren't always explicitly written.

[Hellion Rex]

It makes perfect sense to me. My friend, who is half-white, half-black, lived and worked in Japan for five years. She encountered a lot more racism there than she did living in the US.

....looks like I'm never going to Japan then.

[Darth Krytie]

....looks like I'm never going to Japan then.

 

I don't know if it's different for a tourist. She worked in the schools on one of those JET programs, thus was there longer and in more rural areas than Tokyo or the other major cities.

[Darth Krytie]

yup that's what I'm talking about, that just shouldn't happen, but I think it should go both ways.

 

I suppose movies and tv are different since the ethnicities of characters aren't always explicitly written.

 

It's an issue of the casting people, who often explicitly ask for white people in a role that can be played by anyone.

[Allan Schumacher]

O___O

 

Please tell me you're joking, Allan. That's completely ridiculous.

 

 

I only have him to take at his word as it was just a commenter on an RPS article.  But to be honest I'm not sure why people would think that it doesn't happen.  It's just not visible to people and I think it's easy for people to go "Hmmm, the people put this out so obviously they are unanimous that this is what they wanted to put out."

 

It's a chap who's handle is "Sheng-ji" so you know what to search for and can be found here and here.  The latter citing the game specifically.

[oceanicsurvivor]

Yeah I've been seeing this crisp ad on telly that's supposedly manlier because of the deeper grooves. Certainly odd, but hardly offensive to me.

 

Hmm...ever here of the Bic for her pens? Pens for women b/c our wrists are so dainty we were idk... fracturing our wrists trying to write thank you cards? 

 

Why would a product being marketed as manly offend a dude if they want to be 'traditionally' masculine. However, if say, you're someone who doesn't give a rats ass about off roading and...whatever else Dr. Pepper 10 adds were about but you love Dr. Pepper, then you're probably scratching your head and feeling a bit weirded out and alienated.

 

And why do I as a woman need a different pen made 'just for me' (that 'coincidentally' happens to be purple) when the blue one I was using was just fine? Its more creepy then offensive to me...and overall its just gross. Although, admittedly, the Amazon product reviews written in rebellion of the product make it almost worth it

 

Bioware is in a tough spot however given the nature of the industry and the often violent backlash against any progressive change. I would love if they advertised through some non traditional channels, actually targeting women audiences. Maybe chatted with a tech specialist on a site for women, talking about women and games. Just, associating the Bioware brand with a female audience. Hell, debut femInquisitor on one of these sites instead of on a traditional game site. Talk there about the kinds of things that get brought up at LGBT and inclusiveity panels at gaming cons; about the ways Bioware is trying to be at the forefront of moving modern gaming towards being more inclusive. I think that alone would perk up more ears then you think.

[Hellion Rex]

 

 

I only have him to take at his word as it was just a commenter on an RPS article.  But to be honest I'm not sure why people would think that it doesn't happen.  It's just not visible to people and I think it's easy for people to go "Hmmm, the people put this out so obviously they are unanimous that this is what they wanted to put out."

 

It's a chap who's handle is "Sheng-ji" so you know what to search for and can be found here and here.  The latter citing the game specifically.

My own comment was more towards the shock at such blatant racism. I certainly believe in what you were saying, Allan.

[Hellion Rex]

I don't know if it's different for a tourist. She worked in the schools on one of those JET programs, thus was there longer and in more rural areas than Tokyo or the other major cities.

It still surprises me how blatant that sort of thing can be. I dealt with similar issues in China when I was on a trip there.

[Allan Schumacher]

That's fair, but I think it's still interesting to read what he has to say.

 

I find the artistic integrity claims to be inconsistently applied, as we were certainly raked over the coals by hinting at it for ME3, but when it comes to wanting to depict more people of a different ethnicity suddenly it's "just let the creator do what they want to do."

[Brass_Buckles]

It's certainly not "discount female interest in types of shows or movies that are stereotypically "male."".

 

I was responding to someone else, who was proclaiming the abundance of male action stars is a huge problem for attracting female audiences, and I'm like *snickers*.

 

That's pretty much the extent of it

 

No, that was not my argument at all, and I think you may in fact be being intentionally obtuse about it.

 

The argument wasn't that there was a problem attracting a female audience to these shows but that there are not women included in the media in the numbers that they should be because men are seen as default and men are taught that anything feminine or female is bad.  It is a problem when a casual audience has trouble even finding a scene wherein two women discuss something other than a man with one another (the basis of the Bechdel test).  It is a problem when there are not visibly women in the media in general, and when writers are told they cannot include women because women don't sell (even when they do--Hunger Games, anyone?).

 

So yes, you missed my point entirely, and it wasn't about men not attracting a female audience because I pointed out that in fact they do.  But you'd get a bigger female audience if you made it acceptable for women to be viewed with heroes.  And you can do that through marketing, which, I repeat, matters.

 

Do not twist my words again.

[Aimi]

If I had to guess, a decent chunk of that is because of the way people of color get portrayed in our media, that we then port and syndicate in Japan. Not excusing or justifying it, I do think that it shows the impact and power of the media we consume however.

"Our"? You mean "American"?

Speaking anecdotally, that's not the case; racism in Japan is often connected to anti-American sentiment, because for much of the twentieth century the few black people that Japanese would encounter would be American servicemen and their families. More often, as I understand it, it tends to be endemic problems with "the other".