9318 réponses à ce sujet

[oceanicsurvivor]

"Our"? You mean "American"?

Speaking anecdotally, that's not the case; racism in Japan is often connected to anti-American sentiment, because for much of the twentieth century the few black people that Japanese would encounter would be American servicemen and their families. More often, as I understand it, it tends to be endemic problems with "the other".

 

Yes, I did mean that. I'm sorry, I'll edit my post. Americancentrism creeping in

 

Anyways, thats definitely not something I had considered. My statement came from a book I read about an American journalist in Tokyo, but the journalist was white and therefore bringing a whole bunch of other biases etc to the table when he discusses race in another country. So I probably shouldn't have said anything at all on the topic. Again, thank you for correcting me.

[fdgvdddvdfdfbdfb]

"Our"? You mean "American"?

Speaking anecdotally, that's not the case; racism in Japan is often connected to anti-American sentiment, because for much of the twentieth century the few black people that Japanese would encounter would be American servicemen and their families. More often, as I understand it, it tends to be endemic problems with "the other".

There's also a question of whether Allan's character was about ethnicity or skin tone, because I know the japanese have a preference for lighter skin, which is irrespective of any racism.

[Aimi]

So I probably shouldn't have said anything at all on the topic. Again, thank you for correcting me.

 
Hey, I didn't mean it like that. I'm not exactly an Expert on Japan and America, but I know a thing or two about how American troops have been viewed abroad. But that's, like, almost all I know about this. No reason your opinion would be less valid than mine.
 

There's also a question of whether Allan's character was about ethnicity or skin tone, because I know the japanese have a preference for lighter skin, which is irrespective of any racism.

Also possible, I guess? There's a reason ganguro was an alternative/"rebellious" statement of fashion and/or identity, and that skin tone preference thing is it.

[oceanicsurvivor]

 
Hey, I didn't mean it like that. I'm not exactly an Expert on Japan and America, but I know a thing or two about how American troops have been viewed abroad. But that's, like, almost all I know about this. No reason your opinion would be less valid than mine.
 

 

Nah, I questioned whether or not I should weigh in on that. And your response just pointed out how little I know on the subject. If I can't carry on an intelligent conversation about a topic I probably have no business opening my mouth about it.

[Darth Krytie]

Nah, I questioned whether or not I should weigh in on that. And your response just pointed out how little I know on the subject. If I can't carry on an intelligent conversation about a topic I probably have no business opening my mouth about it.

 

If everyone did that, this forum would be like 1/80th the size it is now. *she said, teasingly*

[Stelae]

That's fair, but I think it's still interesting to read what he has to say.

 

I find the artistic integrity claims to be inconsistently applied, as we were certainly raked over the coals by hinting at it for ME3, but when it comes to wanting to depict more people of a different ethnicity suddenly it's "just let the creator do what they want to do."

[[CAUTION: slightly off topic rant ahead!!]]

 

That sentiment is certainly all over Star Wars fandom today; of course it has to be an overwhelmingly white, male cast; that's what Galaxy FarFarAway is like.  The characters have to serve the story, so of course there can only be one girl, one brown person and one Hispanic person.  It's GOT to be a sausage (weisswurst?) fest, otherwise the story will be compromised because, ugh, quotas, or something. 

 

[[rant ends.  Sorry; had to vent.]]

 

Sure, let the creator do what they want to do.  And when the creator says "we want to be more inclusive" well, hold them to it.  And get the same old "oh, we just chose the best people for the job ... " rant in response.  Again.  That's how you get a 3:1 companion ratio for DAI, and the Smurfette Principle apparently being alive and well in Star Wars. 

 

Cross.  Going away now.

[Mes]

....looks like I'm never going to Japan then.

 

 

I don't know if it's different for a tourist. She worked in the schools on one of those JET programs, thus was there longer and in more rural areas than Tokyo or the other major cities.

 

Ooh. I just wanna jump in and say that when I lived in Korea (yes it's not Japan but it's geographically very close and still Asia), I encountered buckets and buckets of racism. Less toward white people than black, but basically god help you if you weren't Korean yourself. And don't even mention being anything other than straight unless you want to live in hell. One of my acquaintances there (a Korean himself) nearly got fired from his job because he wouldn't shave his stubble. It wasn't a beard, it was just stubble. And you know why? Because the male higher ups said that he was trying to look superior to them via facial hair.

 

Not that a tourist or someone living there for a short time would notice these things, though. But the point is that there are a lot of messed up societies in this world. BUT, that shouldn't excuse any shortcomings of our own societies. Just because we're more open minded or whatever than somewhere else doesn't mean we should stop trying. Only pointing this out because sometimes people use the crappiness of other countries to excuse the state of their own.

 

Hmm...ever here of the Bic for her pens? Pens for women b/c our wrists are so dainty we were idk... fracturing our wrists trying to write thank you cards? 

 

Why would a product being marketed as manly offend a dude if they want to be 'traditionally' masculine. However, if say, you're someone who doesn't give a rats ass about off roading and...whatever else Dr. Pepper 10 adds were about but you love Dr. Pepper, then you're probably scratching your head and feeling a bit weirded out and alienated.

 

And why do I as a woman need a different pen made 'just for me' (that 'coincidentally' happens to be purple) when the blue one I was using was just fine? Its more creepy then offensive to me...and overall its just gross. Although, admittedly, the Amazon product reviews written in rebellion of the product make it almost worth it

 

 

My favorite is a commercial that tries to sell soap for men by claiming that it makes them masculine and not to worry, it's not girly. Like... If I were a man, I'd be affronted. Does society really think men won't wash unless it makes them feel masculine?

 

 

 

The argument wasn't that there was a problem attracting a female audience to these shows but that there are not women included in the media in the numbers that they should be because men are seen as default and men are taught that anything feminine or female is bad.  It is a problem when a casual audience has trouble even finding a scene wherein two women discuss something other than a man with one another (the basis of the Bechdel test).  It is a problem when there are not visibly women in the media in general, and when writers are told they cannot include women because women don't sell (even when they do--Hunger Games, anyone?).

 

 

Hmm. Yeah and it's also a problem when women don't interact with other women in these TV shows or movies and are only there to interact with men. Black Widow in the Avengers/Capt America movies and basically ALL the women in Sherlock, just to name a couple examples from the most recent stuff I've watched.

[fdgvdddvdfdfbdfb]

Hmm. Yeah and it's also a problem when women don't interact with other women in these TV shows or movies and are only there to interact with men. Black Widow in the Avengers/Capt America movies and basically ALL the women in Sherlock, just to name a couple examples from the most recent stuff I've watched.

 

I don't think movies have to pass the bechedel test or whatever to be feminist friendly. At the end of the day it's just some thing one person came up with, not a scientific formula.

 

Have you watched the original robocop? Gender is just like, not a thing in that movie, not even in changing rooms.

[fdgvdddvdfdfbdfb]

Do not twist my words again.

dude that's like asking me not to touch wet paint

[Mes]

I don't think movies have to pass the bechedel test or whatever to be feminist friendly.

 

And why the heck not?

 

Personally I'd like to see women interacting with each other? Is that a LOT to ask for, or... what? 

[oceanicsurvivor]

I don't think movies have to pass the bechedel test or whatever to be feminist friendly.

This is true...in that many people feel (with good reason) that the bechedel test is way too low a measurement of a good portrayal of women in media. Which makes it even sadder that so few pieces of media manage to pass.

[Darth Krytie]

I don't think movies have to pass the bechedel test or whatever to be feminist friendly. At the end of the day it's just some thing one person came up with, not a scientific formula.

 

Have you watched the original robocop? Gender is just like, not a thing in that movie, not even in changing rooms.

 

I disagree? Because having two women, who are named, talk to each other, about something other than a man? Is like a hella low bar. How can it be feminist friendly if we don't exist? Or don't exist in any sort of numbers? Or don't talk to each other about things that aren't men?

 

I mean...a movie can not pass the test and still not be sexist or misogynist. But feminist friendly? No. Because feminism is about equality. There's nothing equal about a movie where women never talk to each other.

 

It's more the other way around. A movie that DOES pass the test isn't necessarily feminist friendly.

[fdgvdddvdfdfbdfb]

I disagree? Because having two women, who are named, talk to each other, about something other than a man? Is like a hella low bar. How can it be feminist friendly if we don't exist? Or don't exist in any sort of numbers? Or don't talk to each other about things that aren't men?

 

I mean...a movie can not pass the test and still not be sexist or misogynist. But feminist friendly? No. Because feminism is about equality. There's nothing equal about a movie where women never talk to each other.

 

It's more the other way around. A movie that DOES pass the test isn't necessarily feminist friendly.

If it's not sexist or misogynistc it's feminist enough for me.

 

And especially if there's justification in the setting for why there are less women than men, I don't see why a movie can't send the myriad of other feminist messages.

[Allan Schumacher]

And why the heck not?

 

Personally I'd like to see women interacting with each other? Is that a LOT to ask for, or... what? 

 

There are situations where the Bechdel test struggles.  A movie with only a single actor, a woman, would fail it by default.  Not saying that a movie like this would (or would not) be feminist friendly.

 

That said I have no major reservations with the test, generally speaking, as it's mostly intended for a quick shoot of the hip and is a pretty low measuring stick.

[Mes]

There are situations where the Bechdel test struggles.  A movie with only a single actor, a woman, would fail it by default.  Not saying that a movie like this would (or would not) be feminist friendly.

 

That said I have no major reservations with the test, generally speaking, as it's mostly intended for a quick shoot of the hip and is a pretty low measuring stick.

 

A movie with a single female actor is a directly related problem, in my opinion.

 

I don't really like this term "bechedel test" either because it sort of makes it seem that placing more women in moves and having them speak to each other is some kind of really difficult experiment or venture. I almost feel like I'm in the Twilight zone. 

[Darth Krytie]

If it's not sexist or misogynistc it's feminist enough for me.

 

And especially if there's justification in the setting for why there are less women than men, I don't see why a movie can't send the myriad of other feminist messages.

The lack of hostility is not feminist enough for me.

 

Think of it this way: how many movies can you name that don't meet the male equivalent?  A movie that has at least two men, named, who talk to each other, about something other than a woman? So...find me a list of films that DO NOT meet that criteria...I wonder how it'd match up in pure numbers to the list of movies that DO meet the Bechdel text.

 

It's inherently un-feminist purely because even if you say that the population of the world is fifty/fifty men/women (not taking into account other genders), you don't even have CLOSE to that representation in movies.

[Mes]

The lack of hostility is not feminist enough for me.

 

Think of it this way: how many movies can you name that don't meet the male equivalent?  A movie that has at least two men, named, who talk to each other, about something other than a woman? So...find me a list of films that DO NOT meet that criteria...I wonder how it'd match up in pure numbers to the list of movies that DO meet the Bechdel text.

 

It's inherently un-feminist purely because even if you say that the population of the world is fifty/fifty men/women (not taking into account other genders), you don't even have CLOSE to that representation in movies.

 

I just watched the movie 24 - Redemption last night (not my idea, was forced ). It had a grand total of two women. The first was an unreasonably nagging girlfriend whose first scene was her in her lingerie. The second woman was surprisingly the President of the US, but everyone else was male. Everyone. Those two women interacted ONCE, and it was to tell each other that they looked beautiful.

 

UGH.

 

I'm not saying that every movie needs to have 50% men and 50% women. For instance LOTR has a good reason for having few women - it's because of the books they're based off of. That is a reason I can accept. 

 

But when everything else is a sausage fest for no reason is when it's a problem. Fortunately it looks like a lot of teen movies are starting to move in the right direction, but dangit I want adult movies to go there too.

 

Edit: Wait wait, I've remembered a third woman. She was in it for about 10 seconds offering a man sexual favors so he'd let her into America.

[Allan Schumacher]

A movie with a single female actor is a directly related problem, in my opinion.

 

I'm referring to a movie that only has a single woman in it, with no men.  I'm not sure if it'd be the same problem.  I imagine it be some sort of survivalist type of story.

[Darth Krytie]

I just watched the movie 24 - Redemption last night (not my idea, was forced ). It had a grand total of two women. The first was an unreasonably nagging girlfriend whose first scene was her in her lingerie. The second woman was surprisingly the President of the US, but everyone else was male. Everyone. Those two women interacted ONCE, and it was to tell each other that they looked beautiful.

 

UGH.

 

I'm not saying that every movie needs to have 50% men and 50% women. For instance LOTR has a good reason for having few women - it's because of the books they're based off of. That is a reason I can accept. 

 

But when everything else is a sausage fest for no reason is when it's a problem. Fortunately it looks like a lot of teen movies are starting to move in the right direction, but dangit I want adult movies to go there too.

 

The scary thing about the LOTR movies is that Arwen's role was almost entirely cannibalised from other characters. She was once in the main narrative, I think, as sitting next to Elrond. And then again in the Appendices.

 

Yes. There's actually no justifiable reason for most of the movies to be made up so completely of men as they are. A lot of times when people try to justify the crappy m to f ratio in their movie, they use a lot of bs reasons for it. Most reasons are just based on incorrect assumptions of the "way things were" and all. 

[Mes]

I'm referring to a movie that only has a single woman in it, with no men.  I'm not sure if it'd be the same problem.  I imagine it be some sort of survivalist type of story.

 

Oh I see! You mean like the movie Gravity? It was awesome, by the way. 

 

Oh and THAT reminds me - I recently saw George Clooney in some commercial referred to as "THE STAR OF GRAVITY." George Clooney was in that movie for like 20 minutes. The rest of it was solely Sandra Bullock.

 

UGH.

[fdgvdddvdfdfbdfb]

The lack of hostility is not feminist enough for me.

 

Think of it this way: how many movies can you name that don't meet the male equivalent?  A movie that has at least two men, named, who talk to each other, about something other than a woman? So...find me a list of films that DO NOT meet that criteria...I wonder how it'd match up in pure numbers to the list of movies that DO meet the Bechdel text.

 

It's inherently un-feminist purely because even if you say that the population of the world is fifty/fifty men/women (not taking into account other genders), you don't even have CLOSE to that representation in movies.

That's an industry related problem, but what I meant was failing that test doesn't preclude a film from having positive feminist aspects, especially relatively speaking.

 

For example I definitely view robocop as feminist friendly, the female lead has no romantic attachments to the male lead, is strong and capable, and is at no point rescued by a man. There being less women in the police force is perfectly understandable, especially since it was made in the 80s. The rest of the major male characters largely consist of the gang of evil dudes.

and I mean, robocop's played by a man, but he doesn't even have genitals.

 

So what I'm saying is, use your own judgement, not some silly supposed test

[Mes]

The scary thing about the LOTR movies is that Arwen's role was almost entirely cannibalised from other characters. She was once in the main narrative, I think, as sitting next to Elrond. And then again in the Appendices.

 

 

Really? I didn't know that. I thought she was very minor in the books too.

 

Sigh. 

[Allan Schumacher]

Oh I see! You mean like the movie Gravity? It was awesome, by the way. 

 

Oh and THAT reminds me - I recently saw George Clooney in some commercial referred to as "THE STAR OF GRAVITY." George Clooney was in that movie for like 20 minutes. The rest of it was solely Sandra Bullock.

 

UGH.

 

I haven't seen Gravity, though I have heard good things about it.  But yeah, something along those lines

[oceanicsurvivor]

I'm not saying that every movie needs to have 50% men and 50% women.

I don't think anyone is saying that. And its ridiculous that you would even have to qualify your statement with this.

 

There is very much this idea that there are only so many 'characters' available. Only so many movies that will be made, books that will be read, games published etc. And there is this weird fear when we talk about greater inclusiveness across all media, and in relation to various types of diversity, that by asking for more characters who represent us and other underrepresented sections of the populace we are 'taking' from this pool. This super over-saturated pool of straight white male characters who dominate media. As if straight/white/male characters would ever be underrepresented.

[Darth Krytie]

That's an industry related problem, but what I meant was failing that test doesn't preclude a film from having positive feminist aspects, especially relatively speaking.

 

For example I definitely view robocop as feminist friendly, the female lead has no romantic attachments to the male lead, is strong and capable, and is at no point rescued by a man. There being less women in the police force is perfectly understandable, especially since it was made in the 80s. The rest of the major male characters largely consist of the gang of evil dudes.

and I mean, robocop's played by a man, but he doesn't even have genitals.

 

We're gonna hafta disagree on this one. Sorry.  But I will say I always find it refreshing when the woman doesn't need saving or becomes a love interest. Something can be woman-friendly without being feminist-friendly.