9318 réponses à ce sujet

[Decepticon Leader Sully]

don't you go looking for coherent thaught from me. 

[Bugsie]

Relevant...

 

 

Yeah I need to go do some work now. 

[Steelcan]

I will never understand fashion

[AresKeith]

Relevant...

 

 

Yeah I need to go do some work now. 

 

*Vivienne disapproves*

[Decepticon Leader Sully]

*Vivienne disapproves*

and i spent ages looking for one fir that other thread to.

 

Lilliana approves +15

[Gregolian]

Tennis players all have fuzzy....  well, that joke might not be appropriate on this forum.

[Decepticon Leader Sully]

Tennis players all have fuzzy balls  well, that joke might not be appropriate on this forum.

There yah wuss.

[ajiehb]

I think the only hidden benefit is simply that the devs realize that the female character is something that many fans enjoy.  Mass Effect has gone from practically ignoring Femshep and treating her as a secondary option to, with ME4, creating the female build before the male one, and I think the fan response to Femshep really has a lot to do with that.  After all, when they're drawing up a budget and looking at where the resources should go, having hard numbers showing a significant amount of players picked the female option makes for a much stronger argument than "there were a bunch of people on the forums asking really really nicely for us to think about the female protagonist."

 

To Mukora and all you guys and gals who have supported this thread even though the female option isn't even one you'd personally make: you are all awesome.  You've fought for other people to play the kind of character they like, we'd be hypocrites not to do the same for you. 

 

That said, I do think it's fun to play a character who is unlike yourself, and encourage people to give it a try.  I pretty much always roll a male character on my second playthrough.  I've also stopped limiting myself to only white characters, and my "canon" Femshep is a dark-skinned mixed race lady.

Like they care about who plays their games :\ They create game because they want to make games and they love to do games not because they want us to play. Also they can't create game that everyone would love. I've read comment from dev on this forum that they were pretty surprised to see a lot of woman during game exhibition. They didn't expect this and you know what? They even didn't try to ask those women why they like their games Hell, I still think they didn't done this and didn't know why a lot of woman plays their games. And they have rights to not to ask about this. If you like their games they are pleased if not well it not their fault they are proud of what they have done anyway.

 

Also I don't think all this feedback about more women in games is going to change anything. You can't force to make dev more women in the game if they don't want. And there is nothing wrong if they don't want. It's totally ok. It doesn't mean they hate woman or gay or black character. They are also people and have their own tastes that can be different from what you want to see in games.

 

Though all this didn't apply to marketing thing. If there is an option in the game to create not only male main character you shouldn't be ashamed to tell about this in advertising.

[SmilesJA]

It's just a suggestion noone's forcing them to. I would love to see a black inquisitor on the main site, but I won't demand one.

[Nefla]

Like they care about who plays their games :\ They create game because they want to make games and they love to do games not because they want us to play. Also they can't create game that everyone would love. I've read comment from dev on this forum that they were pretty surprised to see a lot of woman during game exhibition. They didn't expect this and you know what? They even didn't try to ask those women why they like their games Hell, I still think they didn't done this and didn't know why a lot of woman plays their games. And they have rights to not to ask about this. If you like their games they are pleased if not well it not their fault they are proud of what they have done anyway.

 

Also I don't think all this feedback about more women in games is going to change anything. You can't force to make dev more women in the game if they don't want. And there is nothing wrong if they don't want. It's totally ok. It doesn't mean they hate woman or gay or black character. They are also people and have their own tastes that can be different from what you want to see in games.

 

Though all this didn't apply to marketing thing. If there is an option in the game to create not only male main character you shouldn't be ashamed to tell about this in advertising.

Every company's number one goal is to make money. They may take pride in their work, but they're not a bunch of unpaid fans coming up with something for fun in their basement. Companies do want to know who uses their product, it's just common sense.

[Brass_Buckles]

Like they care about who plays their games :\ They create game because they want to make games and they love to do games not because they want us to play. Also they can't create game that everyone would love. I've read comment from dev on this forum that they were pretty surprised to see a lot of woman during game exhibition. They didn't expect this and you know what? They even didn't try to ask those women why they like their games Hell, I still think they didn't done this and didn't know why a lot of woman plays their games. And they have rights to not to ask about this. If you like their games they are pleased if not well it not their fault they are proud of what they have done anyway.

 

Also I don't think all this feedback about more women in games is going to change anything. You can't force to make dev more women in the game if they don't want. And there is nothing wrong if they don't want. It's totally ok. It doesn't mean they hate woman or gay or black character. They are also people and have their own tastes that can be different from what you want to see in games.

 

Though all this didn't apply to marketing thing. If there is an option in the game to create not only male main character you shouldn't be ashamed to tell about this in advertising.

 

1) No one's forcing BioWare/EA to make more representation for women/poc/lgbt/etc.  We've asked, politely, for more representation.  We haven't held a gun to anyone's head over it.

 

2) Actually, yes BioWare have noticed that Dragon Age has a seemingly higher-than-average number of female fans.  And yes, they've been listening to us.  And yes, I'm pretty sure that they care who's playing their games. They do studies, they check the demographics.  There is at least one dev who posts in this thread from time to time and we have been informed that others watch it, even though they don't post here.  If a certain percentage of women are playing, they're going to want to know why, what we like, so that they can market to us.  Why, you ask?  Because the young-straight-white-male market is basically capped out, and the audience for games is getting older.  There's only one way to expand the Mature Big RPG audience... and that's to attract more women to play it.  Representing women in the marketing is a step toward making these games more accessible to female players--and what better time than when shows like Game of Thrones (based on George R.R. Martin's Song of Ice and Fire series) are at the height of popularity--a dark fantasy genre that some people might see reflected in Thedas/Dragon Age.

 

3) While fun should always be the primary concern of people making a game--or if not fun then at least "entertainment" (since that's not always necessarily "fun" per se, i.e. a sad movie etc)--that doesn't mean that including societal issues shouldn't happen. Those romances that so many people enjoy in these games?  Yeah, remember when only straight male characters had romance options and no one else got anything?  Funny how once other people can have romance, too, it's suddenly BioWare pushing political agendas, rather than trying to add in something that's fun for people who aren't straight males.

 

4) Gaming isn't just for one group of people.  Games are for everyone.  Marketing, and treatment of the customers, ought to reflect that.

 

5) We aren't asking for "more women in games."  We're asking for "more representation in games."  BioWare's generally pretty good at actually including female characters.  And, for that matter, I don't see why there's a problem with wanting more female protagonists.  I mean, after all women are half the population.  Or more women in games/movies/etc. in general.  Were you aware that once there are about 30% women in a room we suddenly think that half the people in the room are women even though that's clearly not true?  Part of this is because there's not an equal number of women portrayed in our TV shows, movies, and yes, games.  So when women are around, it's like:  WHOAH WHERE DID ALL THESE LADIES COME FROM????  And that's a problem--which could be solved quite easily if we normalized the presence of women in games, movies, TV shows, and books.  Because, you know, in the real world it's pretty clear whenever I get out of the house to shop for groceries that men do not make up the majority of the population.

 

6) Honestly, you think "all this feedback isn't going to change anything?"  Okay, then how do you propose that we change things?  I suppose we should just sit quietly and wait for it to happen all on its own?  No.  Things will change, and they will change because we push back and we talk and we fight tooth and nail and claw for every scrap we get, until things are finally equal.  Because that's what we currently have to do--claw and fight and bite and bellow and roar, and only for the smallest scraps, and then we have to defend those scraps against people who (much as you seem to) like to claim there isn't a problem and we shouldn't be given anything because aren't we getting too much--even when we aren't getting anywhere near what the men are.

 

7) And if you're going to continue to naysay... well just bear in mind that this polite request did result in one (albeit lackluster) trailer and a whole lot of gameplay videos and Twitch streams featuring the WInq, and not just the MInq.

 

(I don't like Inquisitrix, as the -ix suffix, much like the -ette etc. suffixes, implies 'lesser'.  How about Wink and Mink?)

[ajiehb]

Every company's number one goal is to make money. They may take pride in their work, but they're not a bunch of unpaid fans coming up with something for fun in their basement. Companies do want to know who uses their product, it's just common sense.

I didn't say that they are unpaid. No need to exaggerate things. So you think they are doing game that would make money, huh? Not the game they want to do?

[Brass_Buckles]

I didn't say that they are unpaid. No need to exaggerate things. So you think they are doing game that would make money, huh? Not the game they want to do?

 

Can't it be both? As a company their job is to make money.  They do this by making a game that is entertaining.  Therefore, their goal is to make a game that they enjoy that will also net a profit for their company, so that they can continue to earn a paycheck and keep making fun games.

 

Making a fun game doesn't preclude involving political statements, either.  I repeat, if BioWare had never included anything considered a "political platform," only straight male characters would get romance and the only skin tones might very well still be white.

 

It's also been pointed out that 20% of a major AAA game release could still be millions of people.  So if "only" 20% of players in a given region are women, well... are you going to tell millions of women you don't want their business?  Because that WILL hurt your income.  The same is true for people of color and the LGBT community.  Even 10-20% of the playerbase is a lot of people!

 

Have you also not stopped to consider that maybe BioWare does consider it fun to include women?  Or that by NOT including women, you're denying a group of people their fun in playing the game?  Or the fact that even if it weren't about money, developers still might want as many people enjoying their game as possible? And that letting women know that they can play as the gender they are comfortable being might bring more women to play and enjoy their games?

 

And even if BioWare is trying to make a political statement, you know what?  I'm fine with that.  It's not like it comprises the majority of the game. Most of our time will be spent killing demons, bandits, wildlife, and dragons, and talking to our companions.  And let's face it, there have been books like Upton Sinclair's The Jungle, or Animal Farm, or movies like Schindler's List, which have also had political agendas--and it was and is important that they do so.  If games are an artwork, which they are, then promoting a given idea through that artwork makes just as much sense as any playwright, script writer, author, songwriter, painter, cartoonist, or, well, ANY other artist doing the same.  And yes, they certainly do--sometimes to great effect.

[ajiehb]

That exactly what I don't want them to do!!! "So if "only" 20% of players in a given region are women, well... are you going to tell millions of women you don't want their business?" I don't want them to think about this crap. I want them to think only about game that they want to do. Not about gender policy. If they want to do a game about woman I don't want to think them that only 20% of their players are women and it's marketing suicide to do game with female main character because 80% of their players will not find this game interesting.

 

I want you to understand that dev should have freedom to do what they want!

[ajiehb]

"7) And if you're going to continue to naysay... well just bear in mind that this polite request did result in one (albeit lackluster) trailer and a whole lot of gameplay videos and Twitch streams featuring the WInq, and not just the MInq."

 

Why you don't trust in your fav dev? You think they wouldn't show both male and fem character if you didn't ask them here on forums? That's very sad to hear.

[phantomrachie]

"7) And if you're going to continue to naysay... well just bear in mind that this polite request did result in one (albeit lackluster) trailer and a whole lot of gameplay videos and Twitch streams featuring the WInq, and not just the MInq."

 

Why you don't trust in your fav dev? You think they wouldn't show both male and fem character if you didn't ask them here on forums? That's very sad to hear.

 

It's not about trust, it's about letting the devs know we'd like something.

 

The devs are people, nice people, but people none the less and people have blind spots.

 

It is really easy to continue to do things like, show only the male character in a trailer, because that is the way it's always been done. Without someone from the outside pointing out your blind spot, you may never know its there & never be able to change.

[ajiehb]

"Have you also not stopped to consider that maybe BioWare does consider it fun to include women?  Or that by NOT including women, you're denying a group of people their fun in playing the game?  Or the fact that even if it weren't about money, developers still might want as many people enjoying their game as possible? And that letting women know that they can play as the gender they are comfortable being might bring more women to play and enjoy their games?"

 

I don't believe women can't enjoy playing interesting story as male :\ What about games where there isn't option to choose your character gender? For example The Witcher. I know a lot of woman who like this game. I don't think it's a big issue if you can't play your gender. It shouldn't be. If you have issue with this it's a discrimination. Honestly it's better for the story if you play pre-designed character. Because let be honest main story is created for male character and if you choose fem it's only changing dialogues even Mass Effect and DOA games are struggling with this issue. The only one game I know with different approach in questing for fem character is Fallout 2. If you choose to play fem hero you can access to unique choices in quests. In BioWare games it's simple matter of different romances with your companions.

[aTigerslunch]

*snip* I am... disappointed.

 

*snip*

This part here, I had movie lines continue the rest of that.   Thanks

 

as far as i recall arround 70% of manes preffere to play as females.and about 40 to 60% of theme are black.

but i admitt im pulling those figures out my ass at the moment.

 

That must hurt pulling those figures out.  

 

Spoiler

I think the only hidden benefit is simply that the devs realize that the female character is something that many fans enjoy.  Mass Effect has gone from practically ignoring Femshep and treating her as a secondary option to, with ME4, creating the female build before the male one, and I think the fan response to Femshep really has a lot to do with that.  After all, when they're drawing up a budget and looking at where the resources should go, having hard numbers showing a significant amount of players picked the female option makes for a much stronger argument than "there were a bunch of people on the forums asking really really nicely for us to think about the female protagonist."

 

To Mukora and all you guys and gals who have supported this thread even though the female option isn't even one you'd personally make: you are all awesome.  You've fought for other people to play the kind of character they like, we'd be hypocrites not to do the same for you. 

 

That said, I do think it's fun to play a character who is unlike yourself, and encourage people to give it a try.  I pretty much always roll a male character on my second playthrough.  I've also stopped limiting myself to only white characters, and my "canon" Femshep is a dark-skinned mixed race lady.

Ran out of likes  +1  

 

Spoiler

1) No one's forcing BioWare/EA to make more representation for women/poc/lgbt/etc.  We've asked, politely, for more representation.  We haven't held a gun to anyone's head over it.

 

2) Actually, yes BioWare have noticed that Dragon Age has a seemingly higher-than-average number of female fans.  And yes, they've been listening to us.  And yes, I'm pretty sure that they care who's playing their games. They do studies, they check the demographics.  There is at least one dev who posts in this thread from time to time and we have been informed that others watch it, even though they don't post here.  If a certain percentage of women are playing, they're going to want to know why, what we like, so that they can market to us.  Why, you ask?  Because the young-straight-white-male market is basically capped out, and the audience for games is getting older.  There's only one way to expand the Mature Big RPG audience... and that's to attract more women to play it.  Representing women in the marketing is a step toward making these games more accessible to female players--and what better time than when shows like Game of Thrones (based on George R.R. Martin's Song of Ice and Fire series) are at the height of popularity--a dark fantasy genre that some people might see reflected in Thedas/Dragon Age.

 

3) While fun should always be the primary concern of people making a game--or if not fun then at least "entertainment" (since that's not always necessarily "fun" per se, i.e. a sad movie etc)--that doesn't mean that including societal issues shouldn't happen. Those romances that so many people enjoy in these games?  Yeah, remember when only straight male characters had romance options and no one else got anything?  Funny how once other people can have romance, too, it's suddenly BioWare pushing political agendas, rather than trying to add in something that's fun for people who aren't straight males.

 

4) Gaming isn't just for one group of people.  Games are for everyone.  Marketing, and treatment of the customers, ought to reflect that.

 

5) We aren't asking for "more women in games."  We're asking for "more representation in games."  BioWare's generally pretty good at actually including female characters.  And, for that matter, I don't see why there's a problem with wanting more female protagonists.  I mean, after all women are half the population.  Or more women in games/movies/etc. in general.  Were you aware that once there are about 30% women in a room we suddenly think that half the people in the room are women even though that's clearly not true?  Part of this is because there's not an equal number of women portrayed in our TV shows, movies, and yes, games.  So when women are around, it's like:  WHOAH WHERE DID ALL THESE LADIES COME FROM????  And that's a problem--which could be solved quite easily if we normalized the presence of women in games, movies, TV shows, and books.  Because, you know, in the real world it's pretty clear whenever I get out of the house to shop for groceries that men do not make up the majority of the population.

 

6) Honestly, you think "all this feedback isn't going to change anything?"  Okay, then how do you propose that we change things?  I suppose we should just sit quietly and wait for it to happen all on its own?  No.  Things will change, and they will change because we push back and we talk and we fight tooth and nail and claw for every scrap we get, until things are finally equal.  Because that's what we currently have to do--claw and fight and bite and bellow and roar, and only for the smallest scraps, and then we have to defend those scraps against people who (much as you seem to) like to claim there isn't a problem and we shouldn't be given anything because aren't we getting too much--even when we aren't getting anywhere near what the men are.

 

7) And if you're going to continue to naysay... well just bear in mind that this polite request did result in one (albeit lackluster) trailer and a whole lot of gameplay videos and Twitch streams featuring the WInq, and not just the MInq.

 

(I don't like Inquisitrix, as the -ix suffix, much like the -ette etc. suffixes, implies 'lesser'.  How about Wink and Mink?)

Like +1, mostly quoted you so I can say this.

Welcome Back!  

 

Spoiler

Like they care about who plays their games :\ They create game because they want to make games and they love to do games not because they want us to play. Also they can't create game that everyone would love. I've read comment from dev on this forum that they were pretty surprised to see a lot of woman during game exhibition. They didn't expect this and you know what? They even didn't try to ask those women why they like their games Hell, I still think they didn't done this and didn't know why a lot of woman plays their games. And they have rights to not to ask about this. If you like their games they are pleased if not well it not their fault they are proud of what they have done anyway.

 

Also I don't think all this feedback about more women in games is going to change anything. You can't force to make dev more women in the game if they don't want. And there is nothing wrong if they don't want. It's totally ok. It doesn't mean they hate woman or gay or black character. They are also people and have their own tastes that can be different from what you want to see in games.

 

Though all this didn't apply to marketing thing. If there is an option in the game to create not only male main character you shouldn't be ashamed to tell about this in advertising.

Sorry but it has been slowly changing, take another look around.      And to go back to a previous post, it would be adviseable to advertise to both male and female to make money from every avenue they can...Yes, is it good business practice to be open for male and female?  It helps to be viable for anyone. They really loved making Inquisition, ask them yourself. I talk to them on twitter time to time.  They really love doing this. Besides, as a hobby writer myself, I find it easier and more enjoyable to love what I am making, if I dont, then I can never finish that story. 

[Decepticon Leader Sully]

 

Spoiler

 

[aTigerslunch]

She is.....top heavy.  Nice boobs on her. 

 

errr....  I like her outfits and appearance.  

[SardaukarElite]

 

(I don't like Inquisitrix, as the -ix suffix, much like the -ette etc. suffixes, implies 'lesser'.  How about Wink and Mink?)

 

Does it mean lesser though? '-trix' is the feminine equivalent to the masculine '-tor', so it is at least at face value just the way of gendering the noun, though I would not be surprised if they had a deeper and more derogatory meaning.

 

I'm divided over the issue. I started using Inquisitrix because a gendered noun is useful for referring to an ambiguous nameless character, in this context. However I find it problematic to use gendered nouns in general use as it promotes male as the default - I basically won't say 'aviatrix' even though I love the sound of the word.

 

 

I want you to understand that dev should have freedom to do what they want!

 

Freedom is boring. Inspiration comes from constraint and challenge. Asking a dev to make their next game about a woman might lead to them actually doing some research and telling a story we aren't used to.

[phantomrachie]

"Have you also not stopped to consider that maybe BioWare does consider it fun to include women?  Or that by NOT including women, you're denying a group of people their fun in playing the game?  Or the fact that even if it weren't about money, developers still might want as many people enjoying their game as possible? And that letting women know that they can play as the gender they are comfortable being might bring more women to play and enjoy their games?"

 

I don't believe women can't enjoy playing interesting story as male :\ What about games where there isn't option to choose your character gender? For example The Witcher. I know a lot of woman who like this game. I don't think it's a big issue if you can't play your gender. It shouldn't be. If you have issue with this it's a discrimination. Honestly it's better for the story if you play pre-designed character. Because let be honest main story is created for male character and if you choose fem it's only changing dialogues even Mass Effect and DOA games are struggling with this issue. The only one game I know with different approach in questing for fem character is Fallout 2. If you choose to play fem hero you can access to unique choices in quests. In BioWare games it's simple matter of different romances with your companions.

 

 

Of course we can enjoy playing male character, if we couldn't we wouldn't be playing video games. 

 

You don't think it's a big deal if you can't play your gender, because in most games you get to play as a man.

 

Before I started to play BioWare games, I could count the number of female protagonists that I played almost on one hand

 

Blaze (from Streets of Rage)

Jade (from Beyond Good & Evil)

Samus (from meteoroid) 

The women from Alien Storm (she didn't have a name) 

The Amazon in Golden Axe

Female Bishop (Rainbow 6 Las Vegas 2)

Female PC in Saints Row 2

 

(Encase your wondering the first Tomb Raider game I played was the most recent one, I didn't have a PS One, I had an N64)

 

I started to play BioWare games in 2009. I've been playing games since 93/94 and before 2009 I played 7 games with a female protagonist. 

 

This is why it matters that games have a female protagonist, not because women can't play games with a male character, but because we've been incredibly  underrepresented in games.

 

It doesn't matter if all the dialogue is the same for male & female characters, it matters that we get to choose our gender, because it is still such a rare thing.

 

Take ME for example;

 

Male Shep is your typical space marine, but Female Shep is something unique, a character we've never gotten to play before, a female space marine, who everyone treats equally to her male counter parts, no one tells femshep she can't do something just because she is a woman, and she never brings up her gender. She is just a kick ass space marine, here to save the day.

 

And the fact that she is a woman doing that makes is special because we don't normally see women in that role.

 

That is why female protagonists are important. 

 

Edit: I forgot about the Lone Wanderer from Fallout 3 so that is 8

[WildOrchid]

I call her inquisitrix because it sounds far better and like Elite said, it's the female version of -tor. I don't see anything lesser about it.

[ajiehb]

"Male Shep is your typical space marine, but Female Shep is something unique, a character we've never gotten to play before, a female space marine, who everyone treats equally to her male counter parts, no one tells femshep she can't do something just because she is a woman, and she never brings up her gender. She is just a kick ass space marine, here to save the day."

 

You understand that it's just because all dialogues are the same for male\fem Shep? Not because BioWare wanted to treats equally or something... there is only one story in Mass Effect and it doesn't matter what gender you choose. Your fem Shep would do the exactly things and be treated the exactly same way. And I was thinking you were fighting for different approach to women in the games. At least I would like to see different situation for my fem hero. I want her to be able to do things that male hero can't. Not just change "he" to "she" in dialogues.

[aTigerslunch]

Whats wrong with Inquisitrix?    Im a guy and that seems just fine to me.  Its lesser?!   Im confused......this a male better than female thing?, better not be. Ill have to add another to my iggie list if he is saying that.

 

 

 

EDIT:

 

 

OK, ninja'd   That makes sense, with change of he/she in dialogue stuff.  But I dont see how it would need to be different myself.

 

 

EDIT: as I allowed previous edit to stick before I wrote more.  

 

Its actually a whole can when scripting for male and a female version of a story, its time efficient and money efficient when change "gender" in the story instead of writing a story for each.  That would be more time consumption than allotted for those with time restraints and money restraints.