9318 réponses à ce sujet

[Lennard Testarossa]

Yes there are more games than the ones I played, but I wasn't trying to avoid games with female characters, I was just playing games that I liked and in a 15 year gaming history (94 -2009) over 5 consoles, I only came across 8 games were I could play as a female character.

 

Don't tell me that is not statistically significant, don't tell me that is my fault for not playing on PC or whatever other platform I didn't have or for not playing the right games, that is a gaming culture that didn't want to include female protagonists.

 

Technically, it certainly is partly your fault for not playing on PC. Not counting expansions I could think of well over twenty examples* in about two minutes, and I never even specifically looked for games with that option. Now, if you were talking about games where you can only play as a female character, you'd be right.

 

Men & Women are treated different in IRL society because of OUR society, in a different society men & women could be treated equally.

 

equal =!= identical

 

A society in which men and women are treated identically is just about as realistic as a communist utopia.

 

Also, you say 'OUR' society, as if it is somehow a specific happenstance of the society you are in right now, when it is in fact something that was present - usually to much, much larger degrees than it is right now - in every single society anywhere ever.

 

*of games which I happened to play

[Pasquale1234]

I can't get my head around how gender politics is supposed to work in Dragon Age. The women in the Chantry thing should give them a lot of influence on paper but my impression from the games is that everyone in actual positions of power ignores the Chantry.

Not quite sure what you mean by "actual positions of power". The chantry's greatest influence (in-game, anyway) has to do with the circles and control of the mage population, which the ruling classes mostly seem to support. Viscount Dumar didn't seem to be able to do much for Kirkwall other than maintain the existing tensions until they boiled over; Meredith and Elthina were the real powers there, while Petrice & Co. stirred up their share of stink.
 

This is a complex and prickly issue, but though I can see the merit in stories which ignore gender distinction I would also like more stories which explore it and gender inequality.
 
Another thing is that often ignoring gender differences in stories tends to just mean showing a typically male perspective story but adding women to it, and I feel like there is possibly something being missed in that. Not every female soldier is a Vasquez.

I'd really rather not have to deal with gender stereotypes in a game world. I get more than enough of it IRL.
 

I'm sure you didn't enjoy Leliana monologue about dressing Morrigan because it was too girlish, huh? Or not? It's not a secret that woman more cares about dresses, even in this thread one of you wanted a ball dress for her female Inquisitor would it be bad if there is an option for fem hero to actually get such dress in game? There are a lot of things that could separate female Inquisitor from male in a good way. Or you don't believe in this? Or you don't want?

Leliana's dialogue didn't bother me. I didn't see it as representative of all women, just one individual.

As for the various clothing requests - I have mixed feelings about that. On the one hand, if those additional options would please people and help support their desired roleplay, I'm all for it. On the other hand, it points to something that I think is a huge problem in our culture: the fact that women are judged and valued for their looks, and whether random males would want to bang them.

Women in this culture are reminded of their eye candy value on a daily, if not hourly, basis. One has only to look at all of the threads (and posts within threads) calling DAI's female characters ugly to see how unrelenting and ubiquitous it is. Then there's the steady stream of ads for "beauty" products that support a multi-billion dollar industry, not to mention the annual parade of "beauty" pageants where women are judged like cattle.

So I'm always a little uncomfortable when women express the desire to look "pretty". I'm never quite sure whether this desire arises as part of the individual's basic nature, or whether it's because they've been socialized to feel that their value is enhanced when they meet certain appearance standards.

[Gothfather]

"Male Shep is your typical space marine, but Female Shep is something unique, a character we've never gotten to play before, a female space marine, who everyone treats equally to her male counter parts, no one tells femshep she can't do something just because she is a woman, and she never brings up her gender. She is just a kick ass space marine, here to save the day."

 

You understand that it's just because all dialogues are the same for male\fem Shep? Not because BioWare wanted to treats equally or something... there is only one story in Mass Effect and it doesn't matter what gender you choose. Your fem Shep would do the exactly things and be treated the exactly same way. And I was thinking you were fighting for different approach to women in the games. At least I would like to see different situation for my fem hero. I want her to be able to do things that male hero can't. Not just change "he" to "she" in dialogues.

Ahh I think you are wrong.

 

here is a link of Gaider specifically talking about the importance of the female perspective on the writing team. He values this perspective even if you don't think Bioware cares about and you don't think they don't really care to make the game gender equal.

 

http://dgaider.tumbl...ame-development

 

But the gaming audience is changing, just as the nature of our games is changing, and perhaps there’s value in appreciating the fact that greater female representation in game development teams has a more practical benefit than equality for equality’s sake alone.

 

The last sentence of the post shows the exact opposite position you claim Bioware takes. They value the female persepctive because it has value in and of itself. It is not just well lets have hearts and rainbows and be into equality. Nope it has value because it sees things differently and that means you can create better games in general because a different perspective equals more ideas on how to approach a given problem in development.

[Steelcan]

 
I think race metrics will be very important to the development of the next game, if one race is VERY low as in less than 10% of the inquisitors made is of X race. We may see X race dropped simply because its not worth the development time.

. the problem with that is dwarves. I don't think they broke 10%of DA:O but they brought them back which I applaud them for.

[phantomrachie]

Technically, it certainly is partly your fault for not playing on PC. Not counting expansions I could think of well over twenty examples* in about two minutes, and I never even specifically looked for games with that option. Now, if you were talking about games where you can only play as a female character, you'd be right.

 

 

I got my first console at 9 and stuck with consoles until a couple of years ago. I didn't have a PC. Just because one platform (PC) had more games were you could pick your gender, in no way invalidates my point. I expect the same level of equality on all gaming platforms.

 

That is like saying it's my fault that I didn't see many T.V. shows with female protagonists growing up because I didn't watch satellite T.V. and I didn't have satellite T.V.

 

Even if you did name 20 games on the PC in the 15 year period I was talking about, those 20 are still a drop in the bucket when compared against games with only male protagonists. 

 

equal =!= identical

 

A society in which men and women are treated identically is just about as realistic as a communist utopia.

 

Also, you say 'OUR' society, as if it is somehow a specific happenstance of the society you are in right now, when it is in fact something that was present - usually to much, much larger degrees than it is right now - in every single society anywhere ever.

 

 

This is a forum about videos games, videos games can explore societies and cultures that we don't have or can't have IRL.

 

Star Trek showed us what a socialist utopia could be like and let us explore what that world would be like. It also showed us what a Warrior culture and a culture based on logic might be like. 

 

That is the beauty of fiction.

 

I highlighted 'Our' because I was referring to our society it in relation to some of the cultures in Thedas. 

[SardaukarElite]

Not quite sure what you mean by "actual positions of power". The chantry's greatest influence (in-game, anyway) has to do with the circles and control of the mage population, which the ruling classes mostly seem to support. Viscount Dumar didn't seem to be able to do much for Kirkwall other than maintain the existing tensions until they boiled over; Meredith and Elthina were the real powers there, while Petrice & Co. stirred up their share of stink.
 

 

That sentence was a bit butchered in trying to compress a chain of thoughts into something readable. My thinking was in relation to Thedas being matriarchal because of the Chantry being female dominated the presence of women in the Chantry's highest positions doesn't seem to directly influence Thedas. Templars (who are apparently not restricted by gender) hold a lot  of practical power, and have even broken away. The nobles often seem to be able to defy the Chantry's wishes without much consequence, or at least don't seem particularly influenced by them.

 

On the other hand Chantry politics have mostly been explored in relation to Templars and Mages, not Templars and Chantry or Chantry and external politics.

 

It was a thought in progress more than an argument for anything.

[PogueMT]

Technically, it certainly is partly your fault for not playing on PC. Not counting expansions I could think of well over twenty examples* in about two minutes, and I never even specifically looked for games with that option. Now, if you were talking about games where you can only play as a female character, you'd be right.

 

I don't know if you're being intentionally condescending here or not, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt - I've been gaming on PC since the mid 80s and am hard pressed to think of even a dozen games that fit what you're saying. This isn't said as a challenge, more food for thought that other people do experience the world differently from you and their experience can be equally valid.

 

The sad fact is male was, and still is, the default protagonist in the vast majority of games, whatever the platform. The fact you'd have to go hunting for games with female protagonists is proof of that when you could be 99% assured of getting a male protagonist if you threw a dart at a random shelf in a game store - it's getting better though, slowly granted, but it's getting there.

 

On a different note - ohh I'm definitely going to check out the Violette Szabo game mentioned upthread, I'd never heard of her before today.

[Decepticon Leader Sully]

Its not great.

And i could go into her history.. but i wont.

actualy there were loads of female SOE opperatives that would make great storys.

[ajiehb]

Ahh I think you are wrong.

 

here is a link of Gaider specifically talking about the importance of the female perspective on the writing team. He values this perspective even if you don't think Bioware cares about and you don't think they don't really care to make the game gender equal.

 

http://dgaider.tumbl...ame-development

 

 

 

 

The last sentence of the post shows the exact opposite position you claim Bioware takes. They value the female persepctive because it has value in and of itself. It is not just well lets have hearts and rainbows and be into equality. Nope it has value because it sees things differently and that means you can create better games in general because a different perspective equals more ideas on how to approach a given problem in development.

It's interesting how you see one thing and how I see another. You say that they care to make game gender equal and in the main time this article is about how they have changed game because women were seeing completely different thing in this situation he have mention. Literally he has said that men and women are very different persons yet you want to treat them equal in game. Isn't this strange? In my opinion they should create different path for this situation one for male hero another for female. But not just cut of certain scene because it would offended women. I can agree with you that they should equaly listen to male and female writers. This is right decision. 

 

What I see in the games so far it's just copy paste male hero path for fem heroine. And I don't think it's equal treat. There are certain difference between races. Like if you play as Elf some of NPC could think that you are mere slave. I like this but I want to see such difference also for male and fem hero. But I see you don't agree with me? 

[R0vena]

What I see in the games so far it's just copy paste male hero path for fem heroine. And I don't think it's equal treat. There are certain difference between races. Like if you play as Elf some of NPC could think that you are mere slave. I like this but I want to see such difference also for male and fem hero. But I see you don't agree with me? 

Actually, there are probably just as many cases when the game (at  least DAO)  treats males and females differently as when it treats elves and humans differently. In Ostagar half of the people you meet comment on you being a woman (Alistair, Daveth, Jory). You sometimes  get quite different dialog from NPC for being a woman or a man (Bella in Redcliff, for example). What else is there? Not every person the hero meets should immediately point and exclaim "Maker, a woman!" just as not every person would emphasize that a hero is an elf. Because in a lot of situation it is completely irrelevant.

[ajiehb]

On other note why you think that been a woman and been a badass hero whose badassness and authority isn't questioned are different things? I'm for example don't have any problem with my fem character been badass and I know quite a lot female characters from books who are quite badass. Is this some woman stereotype that you think that all world think that you can only be good housewifes or something?  

[Gothfather]

It's interesting how you see one thing and how I see another. You say that they care to make game gender equal and in the main time this article is about how they have changed game because women were seeing completely different thing in this situation he have mention. Literally he has said that men and women are very different persons yet you want to treat them equal in game. Isn't this strange? In my opinion they should create different path for this situation one for male hero another for female. But not just cut of certain scene because it would offended women. I can agree with you that they should equaly listen to male and female writers. This is right decision. 

 

What I see in the games so far it's just copy paste male hero path for fem heroine. And I don't think it's equal treat. There are certain difference between races. Like if you play as Elf some of NPC could think that you are mere slave. I like this but I want to see such difference also for male and fem hero. But I see you don't agree with me? 

What possible tangents could the story in ME take because of gender roles? I mean sure they could have a sequence where femshep has to replenish her tampon supplies because thats something a femshep has to deal with that a maleshep wouldn't. But maleshep doesn't have scenes of him needing to replenish his shaving supplies. And a scene of femshep dealing with her period would just be reducing femshep into her plumbing. As a male gamer i can't see that as fun getting either shaving supplies or tampons, just as i imagine a female gamer would see that and go well thats boring to both as well.

 

I can't see one story tangent that only femshep could examine and that only having femshep participate in would make sense that isn't just reducing the story to about how she is biologically different to maleshep.

 

I don't disagree with you out of principle I disagree with you because I think the differences people precieve between the genders outside of biology are mainly constructs. yes women have a different perspective then men but is extremely varied. I just don't see this vast untapped story mine that a femshep could have given us and it still have been a story about the first human spectre saving the galaxy from the reapers.

 

You want there to be a difference that is clear can you give examples of how they could be different?

[ajiehb]

Actually, there are probably just as many cases when the game (at  least DAO)  treats males and females differently as when it treats elves and humans differently. In Ostagar half of the people you meet comment on you being a woman (Alistair, Daveth, Jory). You sometimes  get quite different dialog from NPC for being a woman or a man (Bella in Redcliff, for example). What else is there? Not every person the hero meets should immidiately point and exclaim "Maker, a woman!" just as not every person would emphasize that a hero is an elf. Because in a lot of situation it is completely irrelevant.

I must say my memory isn't that good as yours. But ok they are trying but I know they could do a lot better than this small hints :\ 

[Pasquale1234]

That sentence was a bit butchered in trying to compress a chain of thoughts into something readable. My thinking was in relation to Thedas being matriarchal because of the Chantry being female dominated the presence of women in the Chantry's highest positions doesn't seem to directly influence Thedas. Templars (who are apparently not restricted by gender) hold a lot  of practical power, and have even broken away. The nobles often seem to be able to defy the Chantry's wishes without much consequence, or at least don't seem particularly influenced by them.
 
On the other hand Chantry politics have mostly been explored in relation to Templars and Mages, not Templars and Chantry or Chantry and external politics.
 
It was a thought in progress more than an argument for anything.

Ah... I think I might understand what you're driving at.

The Chantry, as an organization, probably qualifies as matriarchal since it is led by women - as is the religion as a whole. Andraste is also a very prominent and honored religious figure.

What hasn't happened in Thedas, though, is that the entire culture followed its dominant religious influence in being matriarchal.

Is that what you were musing about?

[Gothfather]

/snip

exclaim "Maker, a woman!" just as not every person would emphasize that a hero is an elf. Because in a lot of situation it is completely irrelevant.

 

I suddenly want the option for my inquisitor regardless of gender to be able to say "Maker, a woman!" to every npc in the game.

[R0vena]

I must say my memory isn't that good as yours. But ok they are trying but I know they could do a lot better than this small hints :\ 

Sure.) If you are talking about more possibilities where gender difference brings something unique to the play - I am all for it.)) But in the most cases the gender still will be irrelevant to the most events and thus the dialog and the game will be still the same - just like in the cases with different races.

[ajiehb]

What possible tangents could the story in ME take because of gender roles? I mean sure they could have a sequence where femshep has to replenish her tampon supplies because thats something a femshep has to deal with that a maleshep wouldn't. But maleshep doesn't have scenes of him needing to replenish his shaving supplies. And a scene of femshep dealing with her period would just be reducing femshep into her plumbing. As a male gamer i can't see that as fun getting either shaving supplies or tampons, just as i imagine a female gamer would see that and go well thats boring to both as well.

 

I can't see one story story tangent that only femshep could examine and that only having femshep participate in would make sense that isn't just reducing the story to about how she is biologically different to maleshep.

 

I don't disagree with you out of principle I disagree with you because I think the differences people precieve between the genders outside of biology are mainly constructs. yes women have a different perspective then men but is extremely varied. I just don't see this vast untapped story mine that a femshep could have given us and it still have been a story about the first human spectre saving the galaxy from the reapers.

 

You want there to be a difference that is clear can you give examples of how they could be different?

Very simple example is that femshep could learn and understand a lot more about Asari culture because it's a female nation. They used to contact with male species but only fro business. With femshep they could be a lot more open about their life and secrets. That the first that came to my mind  

[R0vena]

I suddenly want the option for my inquisitor regardless of gender to be able to say "Maker, a woman!" to every npc in the game.

I think after dozen or so cases Cassandra will force Solas (or Vivienne or Dorian - or all together) examine the Inquisitor since he/she obviously has something wrong either with the eyes or the head.)

[veeia]

Ah... I think I might understand what you're driving at.

The Chantry, as an organization, probably qualifies as matriarchal since it is led by women - as is the religion as a whole. Andraste is also a very prominent and honored religious figure.

What hasn't happened in Thedas, though, is that the entire culture followed its dominant religious influence in being matriarchal.

Is that what you were musing about?

Not the person you're talking to, but this is my number one frustration with the DA worldbuilding, which I otherwise think is great, and it seems like this game will be very religion heavy, so I hope that is followed up more.

[Lennard Testarossa]

I don't know if you're being intentionally condescending here or not, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt - I've been gaming on PC since the mid 80s and am hard pressed to think of even a dozen games that fit what you're saying. This isn't said as a challenge, more food for thought that other people do experience the world differently from you and their experience can be equally valid.

 

Well, the ability to play female characters isn't really a subjective thing. And I do wonder what games you have been playing, especially since this is a forum for an rpg. It's entirely possible that the majority of the games I've played allowed people to play a female character. The point is that when you look for games that give you the option to play as as a female character, you should be looking for games that give you options on who to play period. If you look at games that have a defined protagonist, then that protagonist is usually male. But it's not like one can usually modify that protagonist in any way outside of sex. Generally speaking, if you have the option to modify the protagonist at all, you usually also have the option of making that protagonist female (or these protagonists).

 

Giving examples would be pretty easy - all I'd have to do is to list western rpgs that came out between 1994 and 2009. The vast majority of them did not have a set protagonist, and certainly every one of those that I played allowed you to create female characters.

 

[...] I expect the same level of equality on all gaming platforms.

 

Star Trek showed us what a socialist utopia could be like and let us explore what that world would be like. It also showed us what a Warrior culture and a culture based on logic might be like. 

 

That is the beauty of fiction.

 

I highlighted 'Our' because I was referring to our society it in relation to some of the cultures in Thedas. 

 

Fiction can explore drastically different cultures as thought experiments and we shouldn't limit ourselves to exploring ideas that would be realizable in reality, 'cause that wouldn't be very interesting. If that is all you meant - apologies. My point was that such cultures could never function in reality - they are basically a sociological impossibility. 

[R0vena]

Very simple example is that femshep could learn and understand a lot more about Asari culture because it's a female nation. They used to contact with male species but only fro business. With femshep they could be a lot more open about their life and secrets. That the first that came to my mind

I admit I don't see how.

The monogender race will be just as alien to a female as it will be for a male, in my opinion, because her/his species are not monogendered.

[ajiehb]

Sure.) If you are talking about more possibilities where gender difference brings something unique to the play - I am all for it.)) But in the most cases the gender still will be irrelevant to the most events and thus the dialog and the game will be still the same - just like in the cases with different races.

Why not. If they are brave enough they could make big changes like in the second chapter of the Witcher 2. Like whole two different path for each gender. It's just a matter of time and resources. And of course if they want this to do.  

[Gothfather]

I think after dozen or so cases Cassandra will force Solas (or Vivienne or Dorian - or all together) examine the Inquisitor since he/she obviously has something wrong either with the eyes or the head.)

 

I was imaging a game mechanic that would reduce the inquisition's power as word spread that the inquisitor was unbalanced, the more you used the line "Maker, a woman!"

[veeia]

I don't like the idea of two separate paths for each gender. That's a thing that in theory seems like it would be really cool, but in execution....I don't know. Once you start to break it down, it becomes pretty problematic. Why the divergence? What different kinds of stories would they be telling? Would one path have a more interesting, "neutral" story? Etc. It would also be alienating to folks who are non binary/gender fluid/etc.

[R0vena]

Why not. If they are brave enough they could make big changes like in the second chapter of the Witcher 2. Like whole two different path for each gender. It's just a matter of time and resources. And of course if they want this to do.  

I love the Witcher games, but once you played these 2 path... you are done. Nothing much to replay there - for me, at least. And the game is awfully short because of it.

 

I'd prefer less dividing paths, but with much more variety options, even if they are small. The very reason Bioware games are number 1 for me.))