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[Mes]

That's an industry related problem, but what I meant was failing that test doesn't preclude a film from having positive feminist aspects, especially relatively speaking.

 

For example I definitely view robocop as feminist friendly, the female lead has no romantic attachments to the male lead, is strong and capable, and is at no point rescued by a man. 

 

Careful though - there is nothing "feminist" about a woman who has no romantic attachments and is strong or whatever.

 

A true feminist movie would feature a wide variety of women - weak ones, strong ones, emotional ones, cold ones - basically the same range of humanity that men always get opportunities to play.

[Mes]

I don't think anyone is saying that. And its ridiculous that you would even have to qualify your statement with this.

 

 

Sorry just trying to make myself very clear. In case someone puts words in my mouth - happens a lot.

[Darth Krytie]

Really? I didn't know that. I thought she was very minor in the books too.

 

Sigh. 

 

She has no speaking role at all in the books. Her presence was, I believe, "Sitting next to Elrond was Arwen." I think or something close to that.

[oceanicsurvivor]

 Something can be woman-friendly without being feminist-friendly.

I'm not sure I understand the distinction you are making? (Sorry) Could you please spell it out for me haha?

 

 

Sorry just trying to make myself very clear. In case someone puts words in my mouth - happens a lot.

Oh, god please don't apologize to me! I just think its a sad state of things when you haveta qualify a perfectly reasonable position (such as the one you had) with statements like that. Sorry if I was unclear...its late...

[fdgvdddvdfdfbdfb]

Careful though - there is nothing "feminist" about a woman who has no romantic attachments and is strong or whatever.

 

A true feminist movie would feature a wide variety of women - weak ones, strong ones, emotional ones, cold ones - basically the same range of humanity that men always get opportunities to play.

really, nothing, nothing at all? Meaning a film where all the women are simply damsels in distress/eye candy is not even the slightest bit worse than one where a woman saves the man for a change?

 

 

and what Allan said, though I didn't want to use such an obvious example.

[oceanicsurvivor]

really, nothing, nothing at all? Meaning a film where all the women are simply damsels in distress/eye candy is not even the slightest bit worse than one where a woman saves the man for a change?

 

 

and what Allan said, though I didn't want to use such an obvious example.

 

Neither of those actions would make a movie/piece of media feminist or not feminist.

[Mes]

really, nothing, nothing at all? Meaning a film where all the women are simply damsels in distress/eye candy is not even the slightest bit worse than one where a woman saves the man for a change?

 

 

You wanna compare degrees of things that aren't feminist? Why on earth would we do that? No, neither examples are feminist ones.

[Darth Krytie]

I'm not sure I understand the distinction you are making? (Sorry) Could you please spell it out for me haha?

 

 

Well, women-friendly to me means I, as a woman, can watch it without finding sexualised violence against women, women who aren't just there for sexual gratification, women who exist as their own characters. Something that lacks sexism and misogyny....

 

But for it to be feminist-friendly, it has to be a lot more equal than that. There has to be more than one important woman. The background needs to have more of a spread of women and men. It's about equality. It's about women being treated and cast equally. The women need to be written as well and as broadly as the men.

[fdgvdddvdfdfbdfb]

Neither of those actions would make a movie/piece of media feminist or not feminist.

Right ok, and I guess they're all just as bad and just as good as Robin Thicke's music video.

 

God, never have I been more glad not to be a feminist.

[Mes]

 

 

God, never have I been more glad not to be a feminist.

 

Not being a feminist implies you are happy with men pretending to be superior to women.

 

What exactly are you doing in this thread?

[Darth Krytie]

Right ok, and I guess they're all just as bad and just as good as Robin Thicke's music video.

 

God, never have I been more glad not to be a feminist.

 

Wow. No one said anything was as bad as a Robin Thicke video. Look...you got angry because a woman, a feminist told you they disagreed with your definition of what is and is not feminist. You got actively hostile. Don't you see that as a problem? As soon as someone said you don't get to decide what is/isn't feminist, you wash your hands of the whole thing and are now glad you're not for equality between men and women?

[oceanicsurvivor]

Right ok, and I guess they're all just as bad and just as good as Robin Thicke's music video.

 

God, never have I been more glad not to be a feminist.

 

I knew you had been using that term in a vaguely scornful manner

 

A woman who gets saved by a dude isn't a bad character by default. Lois Lane for instance. She can't physically survive a 100 foot drop from a building but that doesn't mean she isn't well written, headstrong, intelligent, and interesting. A character who doesn't get saved by men and is often the savior is say, Wonder Woman. Both women are worth our time and interest, they just have different skill sets. It comes down to context and how they are written and utilized throughout the whole body of the work, not just in one scene. A female character can be interesting/feminist/well written in a variety of ways. Kinda like male characters.

[9TailsFox]

Well, women-friendly to me means I, as a woman, can watch it without finding sexualised violence against women, women who aren't just there for sexual gratification, women who exist as their own characters. Something that lacks sexism and misogyny....

 

But for it to be feminist-friendly, it has to be a lot more equal than that. There has to be more than one important woman. The background needs to have more of a spread of women and men. It's about equality. It's about women being treated and cast equally. The women need to be written as well and as broadly as the men.

But do you see problem. Sexualised violence against women, Ok lets remove what you don't like, then what about people who experienced discrimination because skin is different, lets remove racism from game (one of main themes in DA, and if I understand correctly we have elves rebellion in DA:I so one main theme in DA:I). So remove every bad stuff from game and you have no game. I still remember one fact then i was in school I was pushed as joke and broke my arm, so what no one should touch me because something bad happened. You say there should be equality in game no it should, it's boring. Fighting agents injustice is what's interesting. We should have all bad stuff from real life which exist and which not. And what bioware so far I am happy mostly in DA:O because you have chose. You can praise the make or **** the maker, You can be honer able Warden or doing it for glory and money, You can support mages or opres them. Hawke can own slave or do everything to make her life better...

[oceanicsurvivor]

But do you see problem. Sexualised violence against women, Ok lets remove what you don't like, then what about people who experienced discrimination because skin is different, lets remove racism from game (one of main themes in DA, and if I understand correctly we have elves rebellion in DA:I so one main theme in DA:I). So remove every bad stuff from game and you have no game. I still remember one fact then i was in school I was pushed as joke and broke my arm, so what no one should touch me because something bad happened. You say there should be equality in game no it should, it's boring. Fighting agents injustice is what's interesting. We should have all bad stuff from real life which exist and which not. And what bioware so far I am happy mostly in DA:O because you have chose. You can praise the make or **** the maker, You can be honer able Warden or doing it for glory and money, You can support mages or opres them. Hawke can own slave or do everything to make her life better...

 

Oh lordy...ok...you started this entire tangent by specifically deleting/neglecting the gender specific violence Darth was talking about.

 

The elf thing has been addressed many times over. Racial discrimination in this game happens against fictional groups. No real people get called knife-ears.

 

I'm so sorry you find the equal treatment of women dull.

[Darth Krytie]

But do you see problem. Sexualised violence against women, Ok lets remove what you don't like, then what about people who experienced discrimination because skin is different, lets remove racism from game (one of main themes in DA, and if I understand correctly we have elves rebellion in DA:I so one main theme in DA:I). So remove every bad stuff from game and you have no game. I still remember one fact then i was in school I was pushed as joke and broke my arm, so what no one should touch me because something bad happened. You say there should be equality in game no it should, it's boring. Fighting agents injustice is what's interesting. We should have all bad stuff from real life which exist and which not. And what bioware so far I am happy mostly in DA:O because you have chose. You can praise the make or **** the maker, You can be honer able Warden or doing it for glory and money, You can support mages or opres them. Hawke can own slave or do everything to make her life better...

 

 Sexualised violence is about the violence being done to titillate the audience. I have a problem with that. It's not about whether or not a movie can or should feature rape as a part of the narrative. But doing it in a way that's more about getting people in the crowd off instead of dealing with other aspects of it is a problem. The fact that it's one of the most overused narratives for a woman in a film to experience is also frustrating. The whole forcing a kiss or a hug until a woman stops fighting and responds favourably is a problem.

 

The rest of your post made no sense to me at all, so I am choosing not to respond to it.

[fdgvdddvdfdfbdfb]

What exactly are you doing in this thread?

why isn't it obvious, we're talkin bout dragon age

 

I knew you had been using that term in a vaguely scornful manner

 

A woman who gets saved by a dude isn't a bad character by default. Lois Lane for instance. She can't physically survive a 100 foot drop from a building but that doesn't mean she isn't well written, headstrong, intelligent, and interesting. A character who doesn't get saved by men and is often the savior is say, Wonder Woman. Both women are worth our time and interest, they just have different skill sets. It comes down to context and how they are written and utilized throughout the whole body of the work, not just in one scene. A female character can be interesting/feminist/well written in a variety of ways. Kinda like male characters.

well you knew wrong, because I used to sometimes consider myself a feminist. I was hating robin thicke before it was popular to hate robin thicke .

 

When I said I'm glad I'm not a feminist, that's literally what I meant. Some say that anyone who supports equality at all is a feminist, and in that respect I guess I am. But I'm glad I'm not your brand of feminist, where anything even slightly below your expectation is written off as worthless, or the crazy men hating ones.

 

I never said someone who gets saved is a bad character. In fact I find the recent trend of "girl but she kicks butt" influx kinda boring, is there a girl who isn't physically good at fighting anymore? I specifically mentioned damsels in distress and eye candy characters which NOT well written by definition, which I was comparing to well written, but slightly less numerous, female characters.

[fdgvdddvdfdfbdfb]

Wow. No one said anything was as bad as a Robin Thicke video. Look...you got angry because a woman, a feminist told you they disagreed with your definition of what is and is not feminist. You got actively hostile. Don't you see that as a problem? As soon as someone said you don't get to decide what is/isn't feminist, you wash your hands of the whole thing and are now glad you're not for equality between men and women?

I said "I've never been more glad". I've been struggling with whether I want to associate myself with it ever since I met some of the more extreme ones.

[Darth Krytie]

I said "I've never been more glad". I've been struggling with whether I want to associate myself with it ever since I met some of the more extreme ones.

 

And there are going to be bad apples in literally every single possible group of people you could possibly identify with forever and ever until the end of time.

[oceanicsurvivor]

When I said I'm glad I'm not a feminist, that's literally what I meant. Some say that anyone who supports equality at all is a feminist, and in that respect I guess I am. But I'm glad I'm not your brand of feminist, where anything even slightly below your expectation is written off as worthless, or the crazy men hating ones.

 

I never said someone who gets saved is a bad character. In fact I find the recent trend of "girl but she kicks butt" influx kinda boring, is there a girl who isn't physically good at fighting anymore? I specifically mentioned damsels in distress and eye candy characters which NOT well written by definition, which I was comparing to well written, but slightly less numerous, female characters.

 

I'm pretty far from an extremest dude. If you have a problem with what I've been saying then you are probably going to have a problem with what most women who want to carry on an intelligent conversation about women in media have to say. Also...bringing up man hating   not great.

[9TailsFox]

Oh lordy...ok...you started this entire tangent by specifically deleting/neglecting the gender specific violence Darth was talking about.

 

The elf thing has been addressed many times over. Racial discrimination in this game happens against fictional groups. No real people get called knife-ears.

 

I'm so sorry you find the equal treatment of women dull.

I see you see difference between game and reality. My problem Darth wants remove it entirely she wants all women characters based on what she think is best. She want remove everything she don't like and leave what she likes, like any human being would do. Just think for moment violence is bad everyone agree do you want it removed from game? i don't think so. We should remove bad stuff from game because we have it in real life. And I don't even know how you get idea I find equal treatment of women dull.

And please don't start on women are depicted as sex object and man not. every character in game are stereotypically beautiful, except if made not to on purpose.

 

How many fans Alistair would have if he looked like this.

[Darth Krytie]

I see you see difference between game and reality. My problem Darth wants remove it entirely she wants all women characters based on what she think is best. She want remove everything she don't like and leave what she likes, like any human being would do. Just think for moment violence is bad everyone agree do you want it removed from game? i don't think so. We should remove bad stuff from game because we have it in real life.

And please don't start on women are depicted as sex object and man not. every character in game are stereotypically beautiful, except if made not to on purpose.

-snip-

 

How many fans Alistair would have if he looked like this.

-snip-

Please point me to the SPECIFIC quote where I said I wanted to "remove"  anything in its entirety based on what I think is best? I never said anything about "removing" anything. I just defined what I thought was "feminist friendly".

 

Please point out where in that entire topic which you took completely out of context as I was talking about women in FILM not Dragon Age where I said anything about what I want and what I do not want in the Dragon Age games?

[oceanicsurvivor]

And I don't even know how you get idea I find equal treatment of women dull.

And please don't start on women are depicted as sex object and man not. every character in game are stereotypically beautiful, except if made not to on purpose.

 

You called it boring, not dull, my bad.

 

I nvr said anything about women as sex objects? I'd be happy to go into it though.

[9TailsFox]

Please point me to the SPECIFIC quote where I said I wanted to "remove"  anything in its entirety based on what I think is best? I never said anything about "removing" anything. I just defined what I thought was "feminist friendly".

 

Please point out where in that entire topic which you took completely out of context as I was talking about women in FILM not Dragon Age where I said anything about what I want and what I do not want in the Dragon Age games?

This. You don't like it. You don't want it to be in game.

Well, women-friendly to me means I, as a woman, can watch it without finding sexualised violence against women, women who aren't just there for sexual gratification, women who exist as their own characters. Something that lacks sexism and misogyny....

[Darth Krytie]

This. You don't like it. You don't want it to be in game.

Well, women-friendly to me means I, as a woman, can watch it without finding sexualised violence against women, women who aren't just there for sexual gratification, women who exist as their own characters. Something that lacks sexism and misogyny....

 

That does not actually say what you says it does. I. WAS. REFERRING. TO. MOVIES. NOT. DRAGON. AGE.

[Ispan]

"Strong female characters" aren't necessarily part of the equality movement.  Often, this idea of a "strong female character" is throwing one cliche woman into a movie so people will think it's progressive and forgive its other mistakes.  The one highly visible, "liberated" buttkicking woman distracts from the otherwise shallow representation of women in many movies.

 

Equality isn't about making female characters identical to male characters in the media, it's about naturally presenting both genders with the same amount of depth and respect.  We shouldn't have to talk about the inclusion of "strong female characters" because equally representing women and men in books and movies should be commonplace and not newsworthy.