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[Lennard Testarossa]

What hasn't happened in Thedas, though, is that the entire culture followed its dominant religious influence in being matriarchal.

 

Why would it happen in Thedas? It never really worked that way in reality.

[Steelcan]

Why would it happen in Thedas? It never really worked that way in reality.

real world isn't Thedas though

 

If we saw some more of the theology of the Dalish or Tevinter's Old Gods we might be able to get some more perspective on why the Matriarchy of the Chantry didn't bleed through into society.

 

IRL Christianity's patriarchal nature merely complemented an already patriarchal society, ie the Roman Empire, later the Byzantines and various barbarian/wannabe Roman kingdoms

[Lennard Testarossa]

real world isn't Thedas though

 

If we saw some more of the theology of the Dalish or Tevinter's Old Gods we might be able to get some more perspective on why the Matriarchy of the Chantry didn't bleed through into society.

 

IRL Christianity's patriarchal nature merely complemented an already patriarchal society, ie the Roman Empire, later the Byzantines and various barbarian/wannabe Roman kingdoms

 

The real question isn't why the matriarchy of the Chantry didn't bleed through into society, it's how a matriarchal church managed to spread in the first place and why the mores of that society didn't bleed into the Chantry.

 

Generally speaking, religion tends to mold to society rather than the other way around. And only religions that fit a certain society ever manage to spread in the first place. Christianity didn't really complement Roman society so much as it absorbed its mores.

[veeia]

I would expect to see at the very least, theological texts that produced divergent thoughts. Even IRL during the height of Catholic dominance, there were tons of heretical sects that focused on feminine divinity, for example. It's not that I would expect "no sexism", because that serves a "useful" purpose in a society where women are expected to produce heirs, just that it would manifest differently when the dominant hierarchy/mythology is different.

[Gothfather]

Very simple example is that femshep could learn and understand a lot more about Asari culture because it's a female nation. They used to contact with male species but only fro business. With femshep they could be a lot more open about their life and secrets. That the first that came to my mind

 

How would Femshep being a female help her in this story arc? and how does this aspect of a monogendered culture not make sense for a maleshep to explore?

 

i think this story arc is intresting and worth exploration but nothing about it indicated femshep would be the only logical choice. Asari are not female, they have certain common organs required for birth or nursing but an Asari pre mass effect technology was just as likely to be the "father" as in depositing a biological sample for the "mother" to carry the baby as be the "mother."

 

People gender identify with asari as female because they give birth but asari don't really view themselves as female. They are just as likely to take a male or female lover and its not because they are bisexual its because then are monosexed and the gender of the "father" is irrelevant to reproduction,(How the hell that works I have no idea) so gender sexuality is meaningless.

 

Intresting story but nothing that screams only a female would or should be exposed to this story arc.

[Decepticon Leader Sully]

Dude petty little power hungry idiots are petty little powerhungry idiots regardless of gender

[themikefest]

In 5 days I get to see my femquisitor in DAI kicking a**

[veeia]

Gender specific dialogue can be good, I think. I liked that FemShep and Bakara could talk from a perspective of understanding. Or Isabela meeting Fem!Hawke and reaching out to her as a fellow woman who knows the difficulties they face in being taken seriously.

Neutral isn't the best option, but when having gender specific dialogue for women mostly consists of you having to hear people threaten to rape you or express disbelief that you're a powerful woman....that makes neutral seem a hell of a lot more appealing.

[Wulfram]

I liked that FemShep and Bakara could talk from a perspective of understanding.

Considering their culture, biology and history are all basically totally separate, I found that kind of silly, and maybe bordering on sexist.

[veeia]

But that was acknowledged in the dialogue? Krogan society is different, and that's why Bakara was impressed. She felt solidarity with FemShep because of that and it gave her hope. it wasn't like FemShep went "yeah these jags don't appreciate me". It was just a nice quiet moment of two powerful women from two different cultures recognizing their awesomeness and it had a nice meta feeling to it that I as a female gamer appreciated. Did others feel that way? I'm not as deep into ME as I am DA, so maybe I read it differently.

[Gothfather]

As an aside to the Chantry discussion.

 

I think it bares mentioning that a matriarchy as in a patriarchy doesn't mean there are no roles for both genders. We see cloistered brothers in the chantry in DA:O, in lothering one of them in talks to you about the chantry and the chant of light. I always view the matriarchal influences of the chantry as a balance to the very real pressure of a aristocratic / noble republic societies that requires women to produce heirs to slide into a patriarchy, which is why Thedas is more egalitarian than earth. Woman have the chantry as a role model of female empowerment, men feel the natural societary pressure to be able to provide and protect the female members of their society to make sure that this generation has heirs. Ergo both are given examples of gender enpowerment.

 

Both genders see women and men in "power" positions, this makes seeing a man in the chantry not totally alien because men are not seen as totally subserviant to women outside the chantry. So the chantry knows men can take on power position even if the highest power positions of the chantry are not open to men. Women are not seen as incapable of sliding into power positions outside the chantry like Cassandra does because people see women every day in power position inside the chantry so everyone knows women are fully capable.

[phantomrachie]

Well, the ability to play female characters isn't really a subjective thing. And I do wonder what games you have been playing, especially since this is a forum for an rpg. It's entirely possible that the majority of the games I've played allowed people to play a female character. The point is that when you look for games that give you the option to play as as a female character, you should be looking for games that give you options on who to play period. If you look at games that have a defined protagonist, then that protagonist is usually male. But it's not like one can usually modify that protagonist in any way outside of sex. Generally speaking, if you have the option to modify the protagonist at all, you usually also have the option of making that protagonist female (or these protagonists).

 

I'm glad that in your experience with games, you have been able to pay more female protagonists then me, but that has not been the experience of myself and many other gamers.

 

You being able to give me a list of 20 PC only (and potentially obscure, since another long term PC gamer is saying they couldn't name 20) RPGs that allowed you to play as a female gamer, doesn't negate the fact that on most other platforms there were/are very few games to play as a female protagonist. 

 

And it doesn't make it a gamers fault, if their chosen platform doesn't have many games that allow them to do this.

 

This is an issue that the whole gaming industry has and it doesn't get a pass because one platform has been historically better at it than the others.

 

Fiction can explore drastically different cultures as thought experiments and we shouldn't limit ourselves to exploring ideas that would be realizable in reality, 'cause that wouldn't be very interesting. If that is all you meant - apologies. My point was that such cultures could never function in reality - they are basically a sociological impossibility. 

 

I wouldn't agree that such cultures couldn't function in reality. Humanity has not been around terribly long and I there lots of paths our culture could take. But that is a completely different conversation.

 

But yes, ultimately I meant that fiction can allows us to explore many different types of cultures, those that could happen and those that may never happen.

 

They can even take current culture to it's logical extremes, like the Ferengi.

[Malkavianqueen]

Gender specific dialogue can be good, I think. I liked that FemShep and Bakara could talk from a perspective of understanding. Or Isabela meeting Fem!Hawke and reaching out to her as a fellow woman who knows the difficulties they face in being taken seriously.

Neutral isn't the best option, but when having gender specific dialogue for women mostly consists of you having to hear people threaten to rape you or express disbelief that you're a powerful woman....that makes neutral seem a hell of a lot more appealing.

 

This is pretty much how I feel. I like it when different dialogues come up due to your gender in certain situations, but when those dialogues are overwhelmingly negative if you're playing as a female it can get annoying.

 

My problem with neutral is that it's often taken as others perceiving you as male by default. Which can get annoying.

[Gothfather]

But that was acknowledged in the dialogue? Krogan society is different, and that's why Bakara was impressed. She felt solidarity with FemShep because of that and it gave her hope. it wasn't like FemShep went "yeah these jags don't appreciate me". It was just a nice quiet moment of two powerful women from two different cultures recognizing their awesomeness and it had a nice meta feeling to it that I as a female gamer appreciated. Did others feel that way? I'm not as deep into ME as I am DA, so maybe I read it differently.

As a male gamer i read it in the same way. It didn't resonate on the meta level as it did for you (for obvious reasons) but I recognised that it was written for the meta game moment. Many forms of media have these meta feelings by design so it wasn't jaring or immersion breaking for me. So much so I had to look it up to recall the situation. I did recall my femshep and Bakara getting along well but not that situation. having not played a maleshep beyond 3/4 of the way through ME1 and  0/4 through ME3 I have no idea how that played out with a shepard with dangly bits.

 

(I did play maleshep all the way through me2 once but Jennifer hale was my shepard so I played almost exlusively femshep.)

[veeia]

This is pretty much how I feel. I like it when different dialogues come up due to your gender in certain situations, but when those dialogues are overwhelmingly negative if you're playing as a female it can get annoying.

My problem with neutral is that it's often taken as others perceiving you as male by default. Which can get annoying.

Yup. Another example of this is animations. I would prefer female characters to be slightly different in how they walk or stand, but if the alternative is these ridiculous over the top swaying hips...I don't know...

I don't know how much you guys have seen of streams and I obviously will not post spoilers, but I'm not thrilled so far with what seems to be the default position for female party members (sera and Viv are the ones I saw) while standing around talking to you...looks like they are ballerinas trying to lay an egg or something. Hands clasped in front with elbows out, legs slightly spread with knees bent, butt sticking out a bit.

[SmilesJA]

Yup. Another example of this is animations. I would prefer female characters to be slightly different in how they walk or stand, but if the alternative is these ridiculous over the top swaying hips...I don't know...

I don't know how much you guys have seen of streams and I obviously will not post spoilers, but I'm not thrilled so far with what seems to be the default position for female party members (sera and Viv are the ones I saw) while standing around talking to you...looks like they are ballerinas trying to lay an egg or something. Hands clasped in front with elbows out, legs slightly spread with knees bent, butt sticking out a bit.

 

DAI is sexist!1!!11!!! Ban this sick filth!!11!!!!

 

 

Spoiler

 

Kidding

 

[Steelcan]

The real question isn't why the matriarchy of the Chantry didn't bleed through into society, it's how a matriarchal church managed to spread in the first place and why the mores of that society didn't bleed into the Chantry.

 

Generally speaking, religion tends to mold to society rather than the other way around. And only religions that fit a certain society ever manage to spread in the first place. Christianity didn't really complement Roman society so much as it absorbed its mores.

I chalk it up to the lore and history being written by writers, not historians.  We are a stuffy lot though

[Steelcan]

Gender specific dialogue can be good, I think. I liked that FemShep and Bakara could talk from a perspective of understanding. Or Isabela meeting Fem!Hawke and reaching out to her as a fellow woman who knows the difficulties they face in being taken seriously.
 

Something that shouldn't have come up tbh.  I believe it is DA:O's CC that says that among the laity there is gender equality, women being soldiers and captains shouldn't be anymore unusual than a man.

 

I wonder if this is a case of trying to have a "meta" moment conflicting with priorly established lore

[Pasquale1234]

This is pretty much how I feel. I like it when different dialogues come up due to your gender in certain situations, but when those dialogues are overwhelmingly negative if you're playing as a female it can get annoying.
 
My problem with neutral is that it's often taken as others perceiving you as male by default. Which can get annoying.

I'm not sure whether that neutral stance comes from the idea of male as default, or simply an attempt to avoid treating females as the "other".

That women are so frequently "othered" is a huge problem imho - and it's based on another fundamental social problem, the idea that males are supposed to be a certain way and females another. In short it's gender stereotyping, and it's a problem.

That's the reason why I tend to avoid genderized teminology where it is practical to do so. To me, Hawke is just Hawke, the Inquisitor just the Inquisitor - not Lady this or Fem that or some other way to designate that someone is female rather than the expected default male. To me, that sort of terminology contributes to the "othering" of women (although I admit that I tend to see people as people first, and as their sex and gender later).

[veeia]

Something that shouldn't have come up tbh.  I believe it is DA:O's CC that says that among the laity there is gender equality, women being soldiers and captains shouldn't be anymore unusual than a man.

 

I wonder if this is a case of trying to have a "meta" moment conflicting with priorly established lore

 

Well, if Aveline said that, I'd agree, that would be more of a problem....although still, equal gender opportunities does not inherently mean "gender blindness" either. Isabela is clearly a different story, to me. She doesn't have the protection of a military uniform, and men mistake her for a tavern ****** instead of a dangerous pirate. 

 

This goes into the idea that Thedas is not an equal of a society as that CC disclaimer would imply though...and I think Gaider in his tumblr post made it pretty clear that such sexism does still exist there, which I think is fair. I just disagree with him that it manifests naturally within the context of the world. 

 

But given that the world does show women having their gender commented on/noticed wrt to power and leadership, it makes sense to me that Isabela especially would say something like that.

 

It's consistent with Dragon Age's inconsistencies, I guess.  

[veeia]

I'm not sure whether that neutral stance comes from the idea of male as default, or simply an attempt to avoid treating females as the "other".

That women are so frequently "othered" is a huge problem imho - and it's based on another fundamental social problem, the idea that males are supposed to be a certain way and females another. In short it's gender stereotyping, and it's a problem.

That's the reason why I tend to avoid genderized teminology where it is practical to do so. To me, Hawke is just Hawke, the Inquisitor just the Inquisitor - not Lady this or Fem that or some other way to designate that someone is female rather than the expected default male. To me, that sort of terminology contributes to the "othering" of women (although I admit that I tend to see people as people first, and as their sex and gender later).

 

I wanted to add that I hugely agree with this post, although my own tendency of referring to FemHawke/Shep/etc has a lot to do with the fact that I don't want people assuming that if I say "Hawke" I mean the male one. I always say DudeHawke or DudeShep whatever if I'm talking about the male one, so in my own writing, it doesn't default it out, if that makes sense.  I think both approaches have their pros and cons. 

[Steelcan]

Well, if Aveline said that, I'd agree, that would be more of a problem....although still, equal gender opportunities does not inherently mean "gender blindness" either. Isabela is clearly a different story, to me. She doesn't have the protection of a military uniform, and men mistake her for a tavern ****** instead of a dangerous pirate. 

 

This goes into the idea that Thedas is not an equal of a society as that CC disclaimer would imply though...and I think Gaider in his tumblr post made it pretty clear that such sexism does still exist there, which I think is fair. I just disagree with him that it manifests naturally within the context of the world. 

 

But given that the world does show women having their gender commented on/noticed wrt to power and leadership, it makes sense to me that Isabela especially would say something like that.

 

It's consistent with Dragon Age's inconsistencies, I guess.

Maybe because she's always in that tavern...... or en route to Anders

 

I jest
 

 

Sexism existing largely as looking down on women does strike me as more than a little unusual.  The Andrastian Chantry has been around for centuries, maybe a millennia, plenty of time for "normalized" behavior to flip, so it can't really be written off as pre-Andrastian sentiment still lingering.  To my knowledge, outside of isolated areas such as the Mountains and the Kocari wilds, the Dalish are the only ones who have retained a non-andrastian religion.

 

I'm also willing to write this off as a manifestation of irl stigmas coming through the writing, and perhaps as a legacy of fantasy world building in general.  World building is still very much in Tolkien's shadow for mainstream fantasy, and as much as I love Tolkien, I'd be a little dense to try and argue his world was egalitarian.  Well maybe the elves, but others not so much.

[veeia]

+1 on that post Steelcan, cuz I'm out of likes. edit: wait, it gave me one. thanks bsn.  

 

Yeah I do think it is irl stigmas coming through, which is why I find it my biggest disappointment in the worldbuilding. 

[Steelcan]

I wanted to add that I hugely agree with this post, although my own tendency of referring to FemHawke/Shep/etc has a lot to do with the fact that I don't want people assuming that if I say "Hawke" I mean the male one. I always say DudeHawke or DudeShep whatever if I'm talking about the male one, so in my own writing, it doesn't default it out, if that makes sense.  I think both approaches have their pros and cons. 

I use FemShep when its relevant that I am talking about FemShep, Sheploo if its default male, and BroShep occasionally.

 

Going by Shepard is usually enough, but I can see the need to distinguish them in certain contexts.  Saying 82% of players played Shepard as opposed to the 18% who played Shepard is ....well.. you get the gist

[SmilesJA]

Does anyone know when the full version of the keep will come out?