9318 réponses à ce sujet

[Mukora]

You should probably just assume the current version is the full version.

[Decepticon Leader Sully]

Duno sorry.

[Eudaemonium]

I'm also willing to write this off as a manifestation of IRL stigmas coming through the writing, and perhaps as a legacy of fantasy world building in general.  World building is still very much in Tolkien's shadow for mainstream fantasy...

 

This is pretty much what I've always chalked it up to as well. And honestly, it's a problem I see frequently in settings that are intended to be more historically egalitarian than our own (both in terms of gender and those of sexuality). The issue essentially stems from the fact that the performance of gender and sexuality actually affects a whole lot of historical institutions and ideologies in ways that are often difficult to unpick or even notice unless you do some deep interrogation (because we live in patriarchy, and thus patriarchal norms are coded as, well, normative).

 

I actually suspect that if the writers had actually created a society that had developed around almost total gender egalitarianism, or even with the notions of sexuality that the codex describes (and if they were actually able to accomplish such a feat, which I have doubts about) it might be almost unrecognisable to us.

[Lennard Testarossa]

(because we live in patriarchy, and thus patriarchal norms are coded as, well, normative).

 

Uh...no. No, we really don't. Our society isn't patrilineal, fathers do not hold any legal authority beyond regular custody for their children over their family in general and unmarried children of all ages specifically, and so forth.

 

So unless you go by the Feminist Theory definition of "Patriarchy because muh oppressive societal norms", our society doesn't really fulfill any of the criteria a sensible person would use.

[Mukora]

Patriarchy is just short-form for "Men tend to hold the most power and respect above women."

 

Language evolves. Words develop new meanings.

[Brass_Buckles]

Why would it happen in Thedas? It never really worked that way in reality.

 

False.  There have been known tribes that were and are matriarchal.  There is evidence that women may have led society in prehistoric times.  In fact, new evidence has come to light that cave paintings were probably done by women, due to the proportions on the hands in handprints in said paintings.  These paintings were probably done for reasons, back then, not just to look pretty.  Maybe the women were the spiritual leaders.  That's a pretty powerful position, and even being the best hunter can't really compare to being the person to whom your god(s) deigns to speak.  That's pure speculation, mind you, but if women were making cave paintings, and no one stopped them, it implies it wasn't something they were merely "allowed" to do (and how I detest that term in relation to women being "allowed" to do things.  "allowed" to vote, etc... As if we are children and all men are our parents).

 

At the very least, society was, once upon a time, egalitarian.  Even the Vikings were more egalitarian than we might tend to give them credit for.  Apparently a remarkably high percentage of the Viking warrior burials discovered have recently been revealed to have been... women.  Yup.  Look it up.

 

Men came into power in some societies, and then worked very hard to keep that power and keep women down.  Throughout history there are incidences of women being denied education, or the right to take a break--even to the point of being told that being educated or taking breaks would somehow harm them reproductively.  It's interesting that in the not-so-recent past it was in the news that a Middle Eastern doctor was telling everyone that driving would be harmful to a woman's reproductive organs--to keep women from having the freedom of being able to drive themselves around, and leave on a whim if they felt mistreated, or to have the independence of having their own careers and money.

 

But this is not a natural thing for people to do; it's a thing people do when they are in power and want to keep that power.  You'll find that similar things have also been said of various races and ethnic groups, as well.  They are blatant lies, but if people believe them, well, you can keep your power over those groups while demeaning them and putting down their morale.

 

Uh...no. No, we really don't. Our society isn't patrilineal, fathers do not hold any legal authority beyond regular custody for their children over their family in general and unmarried children of all ages specifically, and so forth.

 

So unless you go by the Feminist Theory definition of "Patriarchy because muh oppressive societal norms", our society doesn't really fulfill any of the criteria a sensible person would use.

 

Compare number of women in leadership to number of men in leadership positions.  Consider whether these numbers accurately reflect the population of women vs. men, percentage-wise.  Re-evaluate your statement.  Patriarchy is very much alive and well.

 

Now having said all of that, I'm not sure why the Chantry's matriarchal setup doesn't influence society as a whole more.  We know from the books that female warriors and fighters are actually relatively rare - DA:O actually reinforces that, as well.  But, one would think that even if men rule the world in matters of combat, see my above statement about primitive societies and the possibility that women were the spiritual leaders.  I can only speculate about that, BUT, you'd think the people who devote their lives to the Maker would have more sway.  Even if the nobility aren't influenced so much, the peasantry should be--and having sway over the people is perhaps even more important than having sway over the nobles.  Nobles can't get a whole lot done without peasants, after all.  Again, it's the idea that they have the ear of their god.  Thedas is a superstitious kind of place--and with good reason, in a world where there is magic and where demons can actually come and attack you.

[Lady Nuggins]

I recall us having a discussion in the past about whether it would be possible for the writers to have the narrative treat the female PC differently from the male one without it coming off as sexist, and only came up with a few cases when it would work.  Honestly, the only time I'd really want to see it outside of romantic situations are when it has to do with character development or exploring the lore.  

 

One time when I thought it was used well is when you first meet Morrigan in Origins.  She addresses you, in particular, saying that women are not as easily scared as men.  That seems like an odd thing to say, even in Ferelden's somewhat equal society, but as you get to know Morrigan, you find out that she rarely encountered men other than the Templars that her mother would chase off.  Her entire knowledge of men comes from seeing soldiers being woefully outmatched by Flemeth--of course she would assume that cowardice was just some common trait of theirs.  It shows so much about Morrigan's character--that she is very sheltered, has very different ideas about the world from everyone else around her, but also that she is very used to being on the side with all the power.

 

On the flip-side, you have Sten questioning the female PC's role as a fighter.  At first, this seems like sexism and questioning the female Warden's abilities, but instead turns out to be genuine confusion and frustration at this foreign culture that he can't wrap his head around.  He objects less to the idea that the female Warden can't fight and more to the idea that she would want to take on a role that, in the Qun, would not be hers to take.  Likewise, he approves greatly if the female Warden explains that she is fighting for the right reasons, and it is the last time he challenges her specifically for her gender (whether he challenges the Warden to a fight later happens regardless of gender).

 

These are interesting and lore-enriching experiences that wouldn't be possible if all NPCs treated the PC as genderless.  I'd like to see more of those, and far fewer lines like "I'm the bravest one here, and I'm a woman!"

 

Actually, I think it's a shame that the male PC never seems to have similar experiences.  Does the male Warden or Hawke ever have his gender specifically mentioned for any reason?  It seems harder to come up with reasons to mention a male character, but one thing I'd love to see is a female Qunari questioning whether a male PC could really understand trade or money (since women in the Qun are merchants).

[Mukora]

The only thing that really comes to mind is Isabela. After you sleep with her in Act 2, she tells female Hawke "that was fun, we should do it again," but she tells male Hawke "that was an... interesting diversion."

[RINNZ]

Bruh, did you folks see that new trailer? The hype is real.

 

Also no female Inquisitor but oh well next time.   

[Lady Nuggins]

Bruh, did you folks see that new trailer? The hype is real.

 

Also no female Inquisitor but oh well next time.   

 

No Inquisitrix, don't care.

 

Kidding, I'll watch it later. 

[Mukora]

There was one panning shot with what kinda looked like the female Inquisitor from behind. Kinda.

[SardaukarElite]

What hasn't happened in Thedas, though, is that the entire culture followed its dominant religious influence in being matriarchal.

Is that what you were musing about?

 

It is. Or at least the presence of women in such an important role doesn't seem to affect anything overtly, there isn't a resulting influence or tension that I've seen. Vaughn still abducts women from a Sister's protection and men don't protest for greater power within the Chantry.

 

 

Something that shouldn't have come up tbh.  I believe it is DA:O's CC that says that among the laity there is gender equality, women being soldiers and captains shouldn't be anymore unusual than a man.

 

I wonder if this is a case of trying to have a "meta" moment conflicting with priorly established lore

 

I couldn't find the exact blurb but I remember DA:O CC saying something along the lines of there are no gender restrictions on profession in Ferelden, or the professions that matter to adventurers or something.

 

Sexism that persists despite legal gender equality could be a fairly bitter commentary on our modern society. However Ferelden has less restrictions on women joining its miliatry than most modern nations do, and gender politics have apparently been  how they are in Thedas since at least Andraste.

 

I suspect the problem start with the developers wanting relative gender equality so that female characters could be given any class / origin / race etc easily, but still framing the world as oppressive and troubled. The world was written with conflicting goals, and hasn't been developed enough for that to be reconciled yet.

[Steelcan]

 

I suspect the problem start with the developers wanting relative gender equality so that female characters could be given any class / origin / race etc easily, but still framing the world as oppressive and troubled. The world was written with conflicting goals, and hasn't been developed enough for that to be reconciled yet.

Which I still chalk up to

 

A. who is writing it, I can love BioWare, but historians they are not

B. Tolkien

[Br3admax]

Women control literally the most powerful organization in the world. Such oppression. 

[SardaukarElite]

Which I still chalk up to

 

A. who is writing it, I can love BioWare, but historians they are not

B. Tolkien

 

I'm not disagreeing.
 

[aTigerslunch]

Spoiler

they've already have conducted a few studies on players pleasure centers and enjoyment of games when playing as their own and opposite genders the shocker? Women enjoyed the game less as men when playing as male their pleasure centers light up for other aspects like a mission or because a character they enjoy they also commented on they wanted to be a women, women who played women enjoyed the game more overall and more on missions they personally enjoyed. The men overall enjoyed playing as male characters overall repeatedly saying they can relate better to him but there were some men who enjoyed the game more as women heros or didn't show a decrease in their enjoyment of the game playing as the woman. But that's not a shocker actually studies show women like playing as women overall same as men like to play as men and the cross over happens and heightens the enjoyment for those players so when you choose your gender its a win/win but your right women love playing as men...it couldn't have anything to do with they want to be in that world as a player nope they just want to play the dude.

 

With the witcher I have yet to find a woman in my area who plays it muchless will admit to enjoying it. You know Triss's porno shot in the beginning almost made me want to return the game I went, " Oh great what did I just buy? Porn simulator? I thought this was a midievil monster killing game!" honestly I don't enjoy the game for the nude ladies like AC2 I do however enjoy running around and hunting monsters but you know what would be way more engaging to me? If my hero was a witcheress, its not like CD didn't try it originally you were suppose to play the game as a woman elf killing things then they changed it to Geralt they had demos and many other things before they switched my guess they kept her model and made her that elf you shag when you save her. I like the graphics of the towns and hunting down my pray the most I can't just find another game that lets me do that. I like the lore and dealing with the witcher cases but you could and I'm sure CD is ignorant of why I like their game because sex, boobs, and lebomancy isn't it. I find when men ask me do I like or have I played the wither they aren't asking me because they're interested they're asking me because they want validation the game they like that also has the nickname of "that porn game" is something a girl likes, they just want the like part they don't give a toss about the specifics of WHAT I like. I've got several moments where my enjoyment is halved, if not cut down to the bone due to some of the content, scenes, or dialogue  in the game but I have other parts I enjoy of that game however I admit its not one I bring out and play 30+ times like I do ME, DAO, and State of Decay and what all those have in common? Im the woman who gets to play the woman lead in a world she likes without much fuss about me being there.

 

I wanted to say. I prefer playing female protags, that I can create specifically.   If Witcheress was a choice, I would actually own those games.

 

 

Its not great.

And i could go into her history.. but i wont.

actualy there were loads of female SOE opperatives that would make great storys.

 

I love your posts.     I like your picture your using.

 

It's interesting how you see one thing and how I see another. You say that they care to make game gender equal and in the main time this article is about how they have changed game because women were seeing completely different thing in this situation he have mention. Literally he has said that men and women are very different persons yet you want to treat them equal in game. Isn't this strange? In my opinion they should create different path for this situation one for male hero another for female. But not just cut of certain scene because it would offended women. I can agree with you that they should equaly listen to male and female writers. This is right decision. 

 

What I see in the games so far it's just copy paste male hero path for fem heroine. And I don't think it's equal treat. There are certain difference between races. Like if you play as Elf some of NPC could think that you are mere slave. I like this but I want to see such difference also for male and fem hero. But I see you don't agree with me? 

 

Story wise, having gender diversity paths is too much work. Some minor additions due to a female main character is fine, but you really need to try and write 2 chapters of a story that allows gender swap and try to get completely two paths yourself. Seriously, go try it. It isnt that easy just gender swapping a same story alone, but try making two paths one for male and one for female that run the same without becoming sexist. Its much easier to just ${male} ....hope that script shows up.  $ { male }  in case it didnt.     Male interchanges to female, minor additions of .....Id call it sexist....   $ { female } He checks you out.

 

You arent clarified on what you mean by making two paths one for male and one for female specifics. That was an example above, I would make sure it was safe to use, which myself, would leave out.

[Eudaemonium]

Patriarchy is just short-form for "Men tend to hold the most power and respect above women."

 

Language evolves. Words develop new meanings.

 

Pretty much. I'd say that it also entails the social privileging of attitudes and actions that are coded by society as masculine or the domain of men (gendered divisions of labour being the most obvious), but in essence it is just shorthand for that.

[Tayah]

It is. Or at least the presence of women in such an important role doesn't seem to affect anything overtly, there isn't a resulting influence or tension that I've seen. Vaughn still abducts women from a Sister's protection and men don't protest for greater power within the Chantry.

 

I couldn't find the exact blurb but I remember DA:O CC saying something along the lines of there are no gender restrictions on profession in Ferelden, or the professions that matter to adventurers or something.

 

Sexism that persists despite legal gender equality could be a fairly bitter commentary on our modern society. However Ferelden has less restrictions on women joining its miliatry than most modern nations do, and gender politics have apparently been  how they are in Thedas since at least Andraste.

 

I suspect the problem start with the developers wanting relative gender equality so that female characters could be given any class / origin / race etc easily, but still framing the world as oppressive and troubled. The world was written with conflicting goals, and hasn't been developed enough for that to be reconciled yet.

I'm not sure it's so female characters can be any class, origin, race so much as it's about the fact that they wanted to build a religion based around the "what if joan of arc had been the founder of christianity without Jesus existing" theme but not picking up all the implications that idea might logically have on the rest of their game world and it's gender politics... leading to telling us one thing and showing us another in world. 

 

We're told in the codex that the chantry religion and it's leaders are a serious power to contend with but most of the time we're then shown the opposite. Elthina was supposed to be the most powerful person in Kirkwall but we never see her try and influence things for the better nor does she ever really try to rein in Meredith even in the early acts when Meredith is actively involving herself in running the city and keeping Dumat uncomfortably aware that if he does something she really dislikes she'll remove him as she did the viscount before him. 

 

The revered mothers in Ferelden certainly don't seem to wield much authority, as already said the one Vaughn disrespects when he takes the city elves doesn't try to stop him or do anything about it later. There's a mother arguing with a merchant in Lothering and he clearly doesn't respect her or the chantry (though he's afraid of the templars unsurprisingly) because he wants her run off so he can keep profiteering (although she's one of the few mothers who actively seems to take a stand to try and improve things for people too) and he doesn't seem to fear any consequences for arguing with her rather belligerently. 

 

So yeah more about the Joan of Arc based religion not meshing with the Tolkien 

 

And my comment is aimed at the discussion in general and refers to points on the previous pages I'm too lazy to go back and quote too   

[Lennard Testarossa]

1. False.  There have been known tribes that were and are matriarchal. [...]

 

2. Compare number of women in leadership to number of men in leadership positions.  Consider whether these numbers accurately reflect the population of women vs. men, percentage-wise.  Re-evaluate your statement.  Patriarchy is very much alive and well.

 

1. ...not false, as what you replied to has absolutely nothing to do with what I said. I was talking about the relation between societal mores and religious dogma and how they influence each other, not about the degree to which societies in our history were male-dominated. I'm well aware of gender roles in Viking society. And I disagree with your historical analysis of how societies developed to be 'patriarchal', but I'm not going to argue that, as this, yet again, really wasn't the point.

 

As a side note: I'm mostly only talking about societal dynamics in civilizations, as that is what we are discussing in Thedas.

 

2. That's not a sensible definition of 'patriarchy', though, at least outside of a gender studies class. It's not useful for historical analysis. The only real purpose of it is the self-gratification of the person using it.

'Patriarchy', in your definition, could describe both societies with complete legal inequality and in which the ruling father (and not the ruling man) is central to societal and family life, and one with complete legal equality in which fathers play no special role whatsoever. So saying that a culture is 'patriarchal' doesn't convey any real information, which is pretty much the hallmark of a useless definition.

[phantomrachie]

Debating the Historical meaning of the word Patriarchy versus the Modern meaning of the word, while interesting, is derailing the thread.

 

We've manged to keep on the topic of Lady Inquisitor for 371 pages let's not get locked now by bringing real world political analysis into it.

 

Back On topic

Even though I personally have to wait 7 more days to play, I know that a lot of you will get to play much earlier. Would people like to see screenshots of the Lady Inquisitors people create?  

 

I know I'd like to see them, provided they were just of the character, it might give me inspiration for my own character  . Once I get to play, I'll post my own.

 

Then if we wanted, the screen shots could be used to make Lady Inquisitor fan trailer.

 

BioWare weren't able to give us one, but we could make our own.

 

[Steelcan]

False.....

. I don't want to derail this thread so let's take it to PM, but can you provide some sources for your claims? Preferably from reputable institutions.

I ask because I see a lot of what many historians classify as ...well pseudohistory to be perfectly frank.

[Lady Nuggins]

Debating the Historical meaning of the word Patriarchy versus the Modern meaning of the word, while interesting, is derailing the thread.

 

We've manged to keep on the topic of Lady Inquisitor for 371 pages let's not get locked now by bringing real world political analysis into it.

 

Back On topic

Even though I personally have to wait 7 more days to play, I know that a lot of you will get to play much earlier. Would people like to see screenshots of the Lady Inquisitors people create?  

 

I know I'd like to see them, provided they were just of the character, it might give me inspiration for my own character  . Once I get to play, I'll post my own.

 

Then if we wanted, the screen shots could be used to make Lady Inquisitor fan trailer.

 

BioWare weren't able to give us one, but we could make our own.

 

 

I'd love to see spoiler-free screenshots of people's Lady Inquisitors.  I'm avoiding reviews and the entire Scuttlebutt forum, so this is probably the only place I'll get to see such a thing.

[Mukora]

I might make a few lady Inquisitors before I move on to making my actual first character. Depends on how excited I am to get into the game vs. messing around in the character creator.

[kirvingtwo]

Debating the Historical meaning of the word Patriarchy versus the Modern meaning of the word, while interesting, is derailing the thread.

 

We've manged to keep on the topic of Lady Inquisitor for 371 pages let's not get locked now by bringing real world political analysis into it.

 

Back On topic

Even though I personally have to wait 7 more days to play, I know that a lot of you will get to play much earlier. Would people like to see screenshots of the Lady Inquisitors people create?  

 

I know I'd like to see them, provided they were just of the character, it might give me inspiration for my own character  . Once I get to play, I'll post my own.

 

Then if we wanted, the screen shots could be used to make Lady Inquisitor fan trailer.

 

BioWare weren't able to give us one, but we could make our own.

 

I would love to see screenshots of Lady Inquisitors here, or another thread created for the subject.  I won't be able to get the game until sometime next year and it would be wonderful to see everyone's creations before then.

One of my favourite trailers of all time is the fan made trailer for Mass Effect 2, The many faces of FemShep.  It would be great to see the community put together something for the Lady Inquisitor.  If EA marketing are having trouble finding inspiration for a Lady Inquisitor trailer perhaps the community can show them how it's done.

[Lady Nuggins]

I would love to see screenshots of Lady Inquisitors here, or another thread created for the subject.  I won't be able to get the game until sometime next year and it would be wonderful to see everyone's creations before then.

One of my favourite trailers of all time is the fan made trailer for Mass Effect 2, The many faces of FemShep.  It would be great to see the community put together something for the Lady Inquisitor.  If EA marketing are having trouble finding inspiration for a Lady Inquisitor trailer perhaps the community can show them how it's done.

 

A video like that would be so cool, and is something I wish they'd done officially for this game.  Just a series of different character builds across all races and genders.