@Monica I meant if you are male gamer (: Because when i play a RPG i put myself in character shoes when it is time for decisions and dialogue and is strange to me to response as female.
In that case, you must see how playing a male character would feel the same for a female gamer.
I have spent most of my gaming life playing either a square of indeterminate gender or as male, simply because a female character was not an option. When I do have to play a male character, I don't identify with them either. That's why it's roleplaying. It certainly feels more comfortable to play female, but the decision-making process for my male characters doesn't have anything to do with me being a woman, it's because those are characters I've created and all of them are separate from me. In a very small way, it's a little like men being able to write female characters in novels or screenplays. Just because they're men doesn't mean they identify with the character, it just means they can create a realistic female.
Sad truth is that a lot of marketing companies everyone (video games and movies included) have this thing where they think that female led movies/games are going to fail so they don't want to advertise them. But guess what? Then they fail because people don't know the media existed. Equal marketing for something male or female led shouldn't be a difficult thing to ask for because ONLY THEN can you truly tell if a game or movie failed because of X because unless all things are on an equal standing you are going to get biased results.
"Oh, you mean this male led movie we gave a crap budget and never advertised failed? Must be because it was a crap movie."
"Oh, you mean this female led movie we gave a crap budget and never advertised failed? Must be because movie goers hate boobs and vajayjays. Couldn't possibly be that we set it up to fail from the beginning through our misguided budget choices."
Hmm. This is very sad and true. It's mostly male writers who create these female caricatures, and obviously they don't resonate with audiences (Halle Barry's Cat Woman for instance), and it's blamed on some notion that women just inherently can't be center stage. Um... no. It's because your writing is crap. Write a good character who happens to be female, and THEN dissect the results.
@Monica I meant if you are male gamer (: Because when i play a RPG i put myself in character shoes when it is time for decisions and dialogue and is strange to me to response as female.
With all due respect, does that matter in terms of the topic - marketing and female characters? 
That's your preferences, and that's fine, but you only represent yourself and not the entire gaming community.
As an aside though, I think it would be kind of... educational to play more often as the opposite sex. Just to practice putting yourself in another gender's shoes. I often play as male (for this reason and, honestly, because sometimes I have no other choice).
Hmm. This is very sad and true. It's mostly male writers who create these female caricatures, and obviously they don't resonate with audiences (Halle Barry's Cat Woman for instance), and it's blamed on some notion that women just inherently can't be center stage. Um... no. It's because your writing is crap. Write a good character who happens to be female, and THEN dissect the results.
Yeah, it's always seemed to me that when games with dude characters fail, it's because of mechanics or gameplay etc...whatever part of the game that was awful. But when female-led games fail, it's because the lead was female. At least this is the sense I get from people, especially in the industry at large.
I have spent most of my gaming life playing either a square of indeterminate gender or as male, simply because a female character was not an option. When I do have to play a male character, I don't identify with them either. That's why it's roleplaying. It certainly feels more comfortable to play female, but the decision-making process for my male characters doesn't have anything to do with me being a woman, it's because those are characters I've created and all of them are separate from me. In a very small way, it's a little like men being able to write female characters in novels or screenplays. Just because they're men doesn't mean they identify with the character, it just means they can create a realistic female.
Sure, but writing some character is completely different than roleplaying the main protagonist in a RPG game. So basically, you consider your character, some person you tailor/shape and bring into the world of the game, rather than you being that character and acting as if you were in those circumstances. I am exactly the opposite, but then again - you are female gamer, most of the time your have no choice but to shape some character rather than think of it as you are him. This is due to the reason that 80% of the games are featuring male protagonists, other 10% feature badly executed, written, mute female character and last 10% feature fully optionable gender (Mass Effect and Dragon Age basically) or some female leads like (Tomb Raider, Remember me etc)
@Mes off course you are 100% correct.... I just did not understand it, and i am for from the thought that i represent someone but myself. I am simply trying to figure out why male gamer would play as female in this type of game, unless he has similar reasons to Monica21
Hmm. This is very sad and true. It's mostly male writers who create these female caricatures, and obviously they don't resonate with audiences (Halle Barry's Cat Woman for instance), and it's blamed on some notion that women just inherently can't be center stage. Um... no. It's because your writing is crap. Write a good character who happens to be female, and THEN dissect the results.
When I read this it really makes me nervous because I'm using a female lead for my novel and then I realise all the bad female characters I've read and seen and I feel a bit better about myself.
Now to the topic at hand. I hope that the marketing team does show off all variations of the inquisitor, simply because I nearly did not buy Origins because the ashes trailer made me think that the world was nothing special and the character was fixed. (Which I do not like in RPGs), in Origins the majority of my characters were female it was a 5\4 split also don't ask me why it turned out like that I have no idea 
The current marketing strategy from Inquisition has improved from the last two as it's showing the world.
I'm actually curious to see what would happen if instead of just putting a male character on the front or making him the dominant figure of the cover instead we have both female and male with equal power over the cover.
I would write a better answer but throughout this thread my opinion has been voiced by many other people.
instead we have both female and male with equal power over the cover.
I think that's a great idea! With an artsy diagonally split image with female on one side, male on the other. Would be awesome!
When I read this it really makes me nervous because I'm using a female lead for my novel and then I realise all the bad female characters I've read and seen and I feel a bit better about myself.
Now to the topic at hand. I hope that the marketing team does show off all variations of the inquisitor, simply because I nearly did not buy Origins because the ashes trailer made me think that the world was nothing special and the character was fixed. (Which I do not like in RPGs), in Origins the majority of my characters were female it was a 5\4 split also don't ask me why it turned out like that I have no idea
I'm actually curious to see what would happen if instead of just putting a male character on the front or making him the dominant figure of the cover instead we have both female and male with equal power over the cover.
I would write a better answer but throughout this thread my opinion has been voiced by many other people.
For me I rather not have the game cover have either protagonist if the game is going to have a custom character because there will always be someone that gets left out. If the image they are using on the Dragon Age webpage is what the cover art is going to be, I am going to be pleased for I like the symbolism that I get from it, for the game is giving me the helmet to take my role as the Inquisitor without any implication of how I might look.
Back to the topic at hand I was thinking a little bit today and I am pretty sure that BioWare when they have the assets complete and at that time have a need for them it will be used to demonstrate the different genders and races if a static image would satisfy the requirements of what people are asking for if none of the videos really focus on the Inquisitor themselves. I was reminded of the Call of Duty: Ghosts multiplayer trailer and I really liked how they did that for most of the video was just a person going around playing multiplayer and at the end the video showed the character removing her helmet, which I think is a good way to approach the gender and multiple race angle for it allows anyone to insert themselves into the role being shown.
Sad truth is that a lot of marketing companies everyone (video games and movies included) have this thing where they think that female led movies/games are going to fail so they don't want to advertise them. But guess what? Then they fail because people don't know the media existed. Equal marketing for something male or female led shouldn't be a difficult thing to ask for because ONLY THEN can you truly tell if a game or movie failed because of X because unless all things are on an equal standing you are going to get biased results.
"Oh, you mean this male led movie we gave a crap budget and never advertised failed? Must be because it was a crap movie."
"Oh, you mean this female led movie we gave a crap budget and never advertised failed? Must be because movie goers hate boobs and vajayjays. Couldn't possibly be that we set it up to fail from the beginning through our misguided budget choices."
I agree that there's a big chicken and egg problem, with data that likely isn't fair fueling perspectives.
I'm sure they're out there, but I don't know of a single male gamer who doesn't have at least one playthrough with a female character.
It's actually very rare for me to play a woman in a game if I am given the option. Something that I can't even really understand. On some level characters that I play tend to be in some ways a self-insert, and I think it's because mentally I often trip up on "am I playing this character appropriately, or am I simply ascribing my assumptions to what Allan thinks is appropriate despite lacking any sort of genuine perspective?"
The odd thing is that I have no real issues playing as a woman if it's required. Whether that be through a fixed character (like Lara Croft), or because a particular class is tied to a man/woman (i.e. the Sorceress in Diablo II was the mage/wizard type of character).
But then, I remember talking with some women on Obsidian's boards that weren't keen on playing Alpha Protocol because the only option was to play as a man, so people like me definitely exist on both sides and I can't really say how common it is for one or the other, relative to each other.
I have spent most of my gaming life playing either a square of indeterminate gender or as male, simply because a female character was not an option. When I do have to play a male character, I don't identify with them either. That's why it's roleplaying. It certainly feels more comfortable to play female, but the decision-making process for my male characters doesn't have anything to do with me being a woman, it's because those are characters I've created and all of them are separate from me. In a very small way, it's a little like men being able to write female characters in novels or screenplays. Just because they're men doesn't mean they identify with the character, it just means they can create a realistic female.
Actually, you do need to be able to identify with the character you're writing, on some level, or it will become a character no one can identify with--ask almost any writer. Even if you detest that character, you still need to be able to understand where they're coming from. When you write, every character you write about has a little bit of you in them, even if you try very hard to make them completely unlike you. I suspect part of the reason women don't usually think men write good female characters (and vice versa) is that it's harder to put yourself in the shoes of another gender when you think of them as a gender first, instead of a character. If you write the character first, then decide on the gender (i.e. by coin flip), you tend to have someone more interesting.
Back on topic, I'd love to see a reversible box art like Mass Effect 3 had. One side Male Inquisitor, the other side Female Inquisitor. Bonus points if you show all races and classes possible on each side.
Actually, you do need to be able to identify with the character you're writing, on some level, or it will become a character no one can identify with--ask almost any writer. Even if you detest that character, you still need to be able to understand where they're coming from. When you write, every character you write about has a little bit of you in them, even if you try very hard to make them completely unlike you. I suspect part of the reason women don't usually think men write good female characters (and vice versa) is that it's harder to put yourself in the shoes of another gender when you think of them as a gender first, instead of a character. If you write the character first, then decide on the gender (i.e. by coin flip), you tend to have someone more interesting.
When I posted that I was thinking of someone like Joss Whedon who's been exceptional at writing female characters. I'm sure there are some aspects of Buffy that he can identify with, but it isn't that she's a high school girl nor is it that she has crushes on unattainable men. So, those men are out there, but there's something else about the character that the writer identifies with that doesn't have anything to do with gender.
Guest_Avejajed_*
I'll tell you, if you want find some men who like to play women, just go play Guild Wars 2. I swear like 4/5 female characters are played by guys.
I've decided it's because most of the female chars are only half dressed. HOWEVER.
This is the character I run with. Or at least, this is a picture of her armor. Which I pretty much love. (Though mine has much better colors.)
Now. What do you make of this page? It's a fansite, which has pictures of pretty much every piece of armor and every weapon and every color and every hairstyle etc in the game. But skimpy armor has it's own special page.
http://dulfy.net/201...s-in-gw2a-list/
Shock! Horror! But guess what? Dulfy is a girl.
I don't honestly mean to keep going to armor, considering my last point and the rebuttal- this was just a natural progression of why I think guys roll females in GW2. Or at least, why they might roll females.
But then, I remember talking with some women on Obsidian's boards that weren't keen on playing Alpha Protocol because the only option was to play as a man, so people like me definitely exist on both sides and I can't really say how common it is for one or the other, relative to each other.
Yeah, I haven't played Alpha Protocol or the Gothic series for just that reason. Or The Witcher. (Well, I did try Gothic and The Witcher for an hour or so each. I just hated them.) I don't mind playing male protagonists in other types of games, but in RPGs I want to have some input into character creation.
I actually don't know how I'd feel about a RPG with a fixed female protagonist. I think it's telling that it's never come up.
I'll tell you, if you want find some men who like to play women, just go play Guild Wars 2. I swear like 4/5 female characters are played by guys.
I've decided it's because most of the female chars are only half dressed. HOWEVER.
This is the character I run with. Or at least, this is a picture of her armor. Which I pretty much love. (Though mine has much better colors.)
Now. What do you make of this page? It's a fansite, which has pictures of pretty much every piece of armor and every weapon and every color and every hairstyle etc in the game. But skimpy armor has it's own special page.
http://dulfy.net/201...s-in-gw2a-list/
Shock! Horror! But guess what? Dulfy is a girl.
I don't honestly mean to keep going to armor, considering my last point and the rebuttal- this was just a natural progression of why I think guys roll females in GW2. Or at least, why they might roll females.
Some women love that style of "armor" -- I can't really justify it by actually calling it armor. I'm sorry, I just can't. It's purely decorative and while sometimes it can look kind of cool, it's not protective at all.
And I can see the appeal of some of the less revealing versions. Some of it can be cute, it all obviously looks sexy. But there are settings where it fits and settings where it doesn't, and a gritty "realistic" fantasy--or at least as realistic as fantasy can get--like Dragon Age, or Game of Thrones, isn't the right setting for that type of armor design. it works for settings with a goofier art style, or with a less serious setting. But it isn't meant for the women, even if there are women who love it. It's geared toward men and boys who want to see their female avatar shake her stuff.
Again, it has little to nothing to do with marketing, unless you're putting forward the notion that Bioware should market with scantily clad female characters, which may have the result of pushing away more female players than it would draw in. I am not sure about that--honestly I used to be totally okay with the skimpy styles until I ran across games where my female avatar could wear actual armor. In other words, I was okay with it because it was the only way I could play a female at all, and because the game industry was so inundated with women dressed like that that I didn't really pause to think about it or what it meant.
I'm sure there are people out there who still don't realize that they have a choice in how their character represents them, and again there are women who like skimpy armor--and that's perfectly fine; I don't judge anyone for that, though I do take offense that someone may think it's "because we want the women to be more like men." In my case, it's because I want my female heroes to be believable and because I want their appearance to garner more respect. That may seem counterintuitive, since in all honesty I wish we could wear whatever we like and still be respected. Unfortunately, that isn't the case--and it's especially so when you're playing a female avatar, especially in an MMO. At least, that's the case in my experience--you're going to be harassed, you're going to have guys say they wish they'd played your class/race because your avatar is sexy (which is sort of a compliment but can also be downright creepy depending on context), guys will try to give you crap for no reason, they'll try to wheedle you into cybersex, they'll mock you and say you're a guy or they'll mock you saying girls don't know how to play if you correct them... it's annoying.
I'm personally not one of the people who enjoy skimpy "armor," and even if the style does fit the setting (it would have worked better in DA2 than in Origins or from what I'm understanding Inquisition will be like), I don't feel inclined to play a game where my character's barely clothed but everyone around her is fully armored. If I join such a game, you can almost bet I'll be playing a male avatar, just to have clothing--and to not be harassed by male players who keep trying to give me stuff or telling me how sexy my avatar is in the hopes that I will offer cybersex. Yes, I have been harassed in that way, more than once. I did not enjoy it. It's one of the reasons I don't play MMOs, despite having tried several of them. But not everyone's experience is the same, and more power to anyone who doesn't have that problem or who does have it and doesn't care.
And that said, I still want to know what the armor talk has to do with marketing, unless, again, you're suggesting that skimpy clothing is a great marketing strategy. I disagree, because I personally don't enjoy being ogled and I would actually not buy Dragon Age: Inquisition if my only choice were to wear skimpy armor. I don't know how many women agree with me on that, but considering how some people I know react to the attire of certain female game characters, I suspect that there would be more female gamers if female characters in general tended to be dressed more modestly. I will also point out that while sex may sell, when you're telling a mature story it is going to be hard to take it seriously if half of the population is in their underwear. It will also make the story feel less mature if the players feel that the developers thought they had to sex up the game that much just to get them to play it--it's insulting to men to say that they're so controlled by their raging testosterone that they can't help but buy a game with nearly-naked women in it. Not that there can't be mature themed games with skimpy armor; I'm sure there are and have been. Again, the setting and art style matter.
My husband plays both genders in GW2, and he usually picks the non-skimpy options. He mainly makes a female character in all games with the option. His reasoning is that, to him, he thinks the females usually look better than the males, not in a sexual way, but in the same way some people think it's harder to make a custom male Shep look good. In BioWare games, he usually prefers the male love interests, too, and he's straight. So that also played a part in making a female, at least for Origins.
He's not alone in this, there's plenty of men who are perfectly alright with a female character, and not because she's eye candy. However many don't want to admit to liking playing as a woman, because there are plenty of people I've met who consider men that prefer women avatars to be pervs or who say very flaming remarks.
Hell, on PlaystationHome I sometimes use a male avatar, and when people find out I'm a female, they think I'm weird or call me gay. Or hit on me relentlessly. I don't think it's just marketing that needs to change. Plenty of closed minded one-tracked minds amongst gamers, too. The latter doesn't help the cause as usually if they're quick to result to homophobic behaviour, they're usually pretty misogynistic, to boot.
Lack of female playable characters and lack of marketing to us makes it worse, though. Then those types feel justified in their behaviour, because they're not used to actually dealing with females besides their pathetic attempts. They don't have to treat us respectfully and like equals, because their main sources of entertainment don't. I know there's plenty of men who don't behave that way, but when it comes to my hobbies, I've endured the brunt of it from the gaming community.
Lack of female playable characters and lack of marketing to us makes it worse, though. Then those types feel justified in their behaviour, because they're not used to actually dealing with females besides their pathetic attempts. They don't have to treat us respectfully and like equals, because their main sources of entertainment don't.
True that. Heck if all the males in games and other media were skimpily dressed side kicks/afterthoughts, maybe I wouldn't have grown up respecting men all that much.
Like I said before, I think being more gender inclusive with the marketing would be a social step forward, and we actually still have a long long way to go.
True that. Heck if all the males in games and other media were skimpily dressed side kicks/afterthoughts, maybe I wouldn't have grown up respecting men all that much.
Like I said before, I think being more gender inclusive with the marketing would be a social step forward, and we actually still have a long long way to go.
Skimpy clothing itself isn't the issue, I think, though it is symptomatic. Again, some women like it--though it's obviously not realistically effective as armor. And I've seen some sets that I personally did like, but given that they were in MMOs I still didn't want to wear them because of the harassment issues.
Part of making gaming friendlier to women is to present them in a format that's more respectable. And while I repeat it's sad that we can't dress however we like and still be respected, female Inquisitors dressed in modest attire and reasonable armor presented through marketing videos and screenshots and artwork online will help send a message to potential female players that, "Hey, we know you exist and we're not like those other companies--we're treating you like people instead of sex dolls; we're marketing to you as much as we are to our male gamers. We respect you. Please spend your money on our game."
And that said, I still want to know what the armor talk has to do with marketing, unless, again, you're suggesting that skimpy clothing is a great marketing strategy. I disagree, because I personally don't enjoy being ogled and I would actually not buy Dragon Age: Inquisition if my only choice were to wear skimpy armor.
The skimpy armor that was shown in the marketing for Tera is why I avoided the game. I don't know if the end game gear is substantial or solid (because it wasn't marketed that way) so I avoided wasting time/money only to end up in gear I hated.
True that. Heck if all the males in games and other media were skimpily dressed side kicks/afterthoughts, maybe I wouldn't have grown up respecting men all that much.
Like I said before, I think being more gender inclusive with the marketing would be a social step forward, and we actually still have a long long way to go.
Have you all met Nate, the male version of Lara Croft (be prepared for butt cheeks)? I'd like to see him on some marketing and see if anyone could take him seriously.
Guest_Avejajed_*
I actually never suggested armor had anything to do with marketing. I was just using it as an illustration. I also never suggested all men who play women on GW2 are doing it for the underboob.
And I also don't really disagree with you, Brass. I'm just sharing my personal opinions on some of the subjects raised- and my comments about Guild Wars just arose from the conversation getting into men playing women in video games and then I thought it was interesting that the skimpy clothing website was perpetrated by a woman and not a man.
I just sort of have thoughts and then share them. I'm not being disrespectful, I hope, nor needlessly argumentative. I'd love to see both a female on the cover and a female in a trailer- but if I don't, I'll still buy the game.
Well this topic has made me wish one thing - that we would have all gone to school together!!
It's very possible that we all did, and gave each other a really wide berth.
I gave up playing ME3 multiplayer for a while, because of the vast number of dickheads who booted me from groups either because I'm a girl and therefore can't play, or because I'm a girl who didn't appreciate being sexually harrased. Those are the dickheads that the game companies are still pandering to. They need to learn, and pretty damn quickly, that we're not girls, we're grown women, and we're here to stay. Our money funds development of the games, just like theirs does, and it's increasingly MORE of our money too! We're here telling Bioware what we want - if they're really listening to their fanbase, they'll take notice - we are, after all, a big part of that fanbase. This is their big chance to prove to me that they really ARE listening.
(I did eventually meet a great bunch of women to play the ME3 multiplayer with, via the forum that someone set up on the Bioware board, so it wasn't all bad. Even met some decent blokes as well! The fact that I might not be very good on occasion is down to my arthritis, not my gender!)
Gaming industry changes, Lara doesn't have breasts bigger than her head anymore, female NPCs are not half-witted princesses who need rescuing, and you can kill Reaper... on foot!
As playing opposite gender protagonist - my BF believes Shepard is a women and couldn't bring himself to play as male character, the magic combination of good writing, Jennifer Hale's VA, and amazing story. As for me playing male protagonists... well If one is a gamer, one ought to be used to it by now 
There are those who still didn't acknowledge female gamers. I never played Witcher, was briefed by my friends, books are really good tho. The Cyberpunk 2070 "trailer" annoys me so I probably won't buy the game, even if I do love CP2020.
It is a slow change, but it's progressing. I don't mind if male protagonist and female companions are created first - you have to start somewhere, I suppose.
I agree that there's a big chicken and egg problem, with data that likely isn't fair fueling perspectives.
It's actually very rare for me to play a woman in a game if I am given the option. Something that I can't even really understand. On some level characters that I play tend to be in some ways a self-insert, and I think it's because mentally I often trip up on "am I playing this character appropriately, or am I simply ascribing my assumptions to what Allan thinks is appropriate despite lacking any sort of genuine perspective?"
The odd thing is that I have no real issues playing as a woman if it's required. Whether that be through a fixed character (like Lara Croft), or because a particular class is tied to a man/woman (i.e. the Sorceress in Diablo II was the mage/wizard type of character).
But then, I remember talking with some women on Obsidian's boards that weren't keen on playing Alpha Protocol because the only option was to play as a man, so people like me definitely exist on both sides and I can't really say how common it is for one or the other, relative to each other.
That's true, however, wouldn't it be possible for even a screenshot of a Lady Inquisitor?
It's actually very rare for me to play a woman in a game if I am given the option. Something that I can't even really understand. On some level characters that I play tend to be in some ways a self-insert, and I think it's because mentally I often trip up on "am I playing this character appropriately, or am I simply ascribing my assumptions to what Allan thinks is appropriate despite lacking any sort of genuine perspective?"
The odd thing is that I have no real issues playing as a woman if it's required. Whether that be through a fixed character (like Lara Croft), or because a particular class is tied to a man/woman (i.e. the Sorceress in Diablo II was the mage/wizard type of character).
But then, I remember talking with some women on Obsidian's boards that weren't keen on playing Alpha Protocol because the only option was to play as a man, so people like me definitely exist on both sides and I can't really say how common it is for one or the other, relative to each other.
That's true, however, wouldn't it be possible for even a screenshot of a Lady Inquisitor?
The catch is that if they don't have the Lady Inquisitor finalized or the armor she might wear? Because of previous backlash against early content and social media topics it feels like they have truly adopted a "show and tell" approach so we only see things when they are ready to be inserted into the game.
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