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[ElitePinecone]

You know, I keep hearing this and not just of games but of movies, shows, etc... From what I've seen it's mainly women who buy the merchandise, write the fanfiction, create the fanart etc... 

 

I feel like all this data (even if at times anecdotal) just still gets ignored. Even if 100% of the PAX attendees were women (rather than 90% which is still pretty darn close to 100), the default advertised PC would STILL be male.

 

It's such an uphill battle for us. 

 

While we don't know specific numbers, and I'm in no way defending the decision to make the default advertised Inquisitor a male, it's possible that the marketing team are basing that decision on looking at the whole potential audience, rather than their existing hardcore fans. Marketing is a practical, business-focused side of the industry - and occasionally that can really annoy people who aren't actually the targets of ad campaigns (like, I'd say, DA2's ads did for some people here, including me). 

 

I mean, I assume that people who go to conventions (or comment on the forums) are going to be quite a small minority of the game's ~4-5 million players, and an even smaller minority of all of the people who could theoretically want to buy a Dragon Age game. We can't really assume that knowing that (anecdotally) most of the hardcore fans are female would actually change the marketing team's minds, if they have data that shows "male players in the 18-25 demographic" are the most lucrative market this year, or whatever. From a business point of view, those players are more or less as valuable a customer as the most invested fans in the franchise,

 

That being said, I don't think that makes a very convincing argument for only having a male Inquisitor in the marketing, and I'm entirely sympathetic to the frustration many people feel that even in a series like Dragon Age, the female protagonist seems to get second fiddle. 

 

(I hope that last phrase isn't weird Australian slang that nobody will understand)

[ElitePinecone]

Skimpy clothing itself isn't the issue, I think, though it is symptomatic.  Again, some women like it--though it's obviously not realistically effective as armor.  And I've seen some sets that I personally did like, but given that they were in MMOs I still didn't want to wear them because of the harassment issues.

 

Part of making gaming friendlier to women is to present them in a format that's more respectable.  And while I repeat it's sad that we can't dress however we like and still be respected, female Inquisitors dressed in modest attire and reasonable armor presented through marketing videos and screenshots and artwork online will help send a message to potential female players that, "Hey, we know you exist and we're not like those other companies--we're treating you like people instead of sex dolls; we're marketing to you as much as we are to our male gamers.  We respect you.  Please spend your money on our game."

 

Just wanted to say that your last paragraph is fantastic and I completely hope this is what ends up happening for Inquisition. 

 

I'm not entirely sure what the reaction was to Mass Effect 3's mini femShep campaign, but I believe there was a bit of pushback precisely because it was perceived to be belated and a bit ham-fisted (the whole decide femShep's iconic hair colour thing).

 

Although I'm sure everyone was sincere about it, I really hope Inquisition doesn't go down that route of making the inclusion of a female protagonist in marketing a marketing event in itself. For ME3, it only served to highlight that it was the first time we'd seen femShep in about six years of promotional material. 

[AlanC9]

..... many people feel that even in a series like Dragon Age, the female protagonist seems to get second fiddle.

(I hope that last phrase isn't weird Australian slang that nobody will understand)

In US English the phrase would have been "play second fiddle."

[Fast Jimmy]

Bioware should market the ability to play as multiple races, multiple genders, multiple classes.

They shouldn't market a set protagonist dude bra anymore than they should market a set protagonist dude bro. It is misleading, inaccurate and actively harmful to the advertising of what the game actually is.

[Mes]

Well I think women gamers have to be able to play a man to some extent. I mean culture is saturated with it. If you want to be a hero, you identify with men. I actually first had a disconnect playing women characters, goodness be, I am a woman who was into the whole MRA business a few years ago. I mean male=tough/strongor smart if not strong/ capable/heroic female=sexy, and nice but usually ineffectual when it counts or so you absorb that in different ways.

I mean look at the super "hero" marketing of the movies. Hero in media means men. Personally, I used to believe it and from talking to some guys, they believe it too. But having a female character be tough and smart and save the day? No budging. I can play rpgs with men staring, easily, but it just is such a big difference in self worth compared to EVERYTHING else, that having the option matters a whole lot.

I feel a lot of the complaints are more to add to the believability that our hero isnt a complete delusion compared to the world around her. And honestly rpgs are the only place to do that. And Bioware is the one who not only can make our hero a woman, but also believable as one without feeling like a joke.

 

I really relate to this. Growing up, I ALWAYS imagined myself in the shoes of a male superhero... I didn't want to sit around pretending to be a princess (though it's fine if other kids do, don't get me wrong)... I wanted to solve crimes like Sherlock and fight like a Musketeer. The Ninja Turtles were my favorite cartoon characters. 

 

I think if, back then, I was presented with something like a fem Shep or lady Inquisitor, my life would have turned out differently. Growing up, it took me a while to realize that women aren't actually that different from men, that we've all been brainwashed. And so now I like to take an active stance on these matters to sort of make up for lost time!  

 

Bioware should market the ability to play as multiple races, multiple genders, multiple classes.

They shouldn't market a set protagonist dude bra anymore than they should market a set protagonist dude bro. It is misleading, inaccurate and actively harmful to the advertising of what the game actually is.

 

Yeah I mean let's face it - it's a bit weird for a game to pride itself on all these playable races and genders and ONLY market using the standard dude bro white guy.

[Fast Jimmy]

They shouldn't market the standard white dude bro at all. NOR a white dudette bra. Nor a black, or Hispanic, or elvish or Qunari... having a set protagonist for marketing purposes when your game devotes large resources into making choices that invalidate said set protagonist is bizarre.

It seems marketers can't figure out how to sell that. So instead of actually attempting to be creative, they default to what other games do - put a set character on the box/in the commercials. Which is insane. Truly, completely insane.

[XMissWooX]

I can agree with this.
I will mostly play as a female Inquisitor, so information on the female Inquisitor is more relevant to me personally than information on the male Inquisitor.
I can understand if Bioware isn't in a position to show us anything yet, but I though I'd add my voice to the requests for more info when it's ready.

[ElitePinecone]

They shouldn't market the standard white dude bro at all. NOR a white dudette bra. Nor a black, or Hispanic, or elvish or Qunari... having a set protagonist for marketing purposes when your game devotes large resources into making choices that invalidate said set protagonist is bizarre.

It seems marketers can't figure out how to sell that. So instead of actually attempting to be creative, they default to what other games do - put a set character on the box/in the commercials. Which is insane. Truly, completely insane.

 

Really, it seems nonsensical to spend so much time and effort (and MONEY) on creating, designing and voicing four races and two genders if only 1/8th of the combinations appear predominantly in marketing. Why make all that content if you're not going to advertise that players can use it!?

 

I know they have metrics and stuff but given how many people didn't realise there was even a female Shepard, if I were Bioware I'd be spending every spare second reminding everyone that the Inquisitor has no defined species or gender. It'd be... a nightmare if people ignored the game because they didn't realise you could play as a woman or a dwarf, and (in my humble opinion) the marketing appeal of "you can pick your gender and race, here's an entire world to explore that will react to those choices" is SO much more interesting than "you're Swordy McWhite Swordbro, go and kill things in spectacular slow-motion like a Spartan".

[Bekkael]

I think marketing needs to wake up as to who really buys games. Hint: it's often the moms!

 

We have 4 consoles in our home (2 original xbox, 2 360s), and several PCs that are used for gaming. I am a 40 year old woman, and I bought every single console, and ALL of the games we own. Not my husband, not my sons... I buy them.  I choose them. Usually after a good deal of research to ensure it's worth the money.

 

I have 7 children, and every single one of them is a gamer. Why? Because I love games, and that's how I've raised them. When my older children were little, I bought them KOTOR (our 1st BioWare game), which they played many times, both as male and female characters. I bought them KOTOR 2 (yes, I know Obsidian made KOTOR 2, not BioWare), and then Jade Empire for myself, which I loved. BioWare and Bethesda were the only companies that always let me play as a woman, so they have earned my absolute devotion and loyalty over the years. Every game BioWare makes is an automatic pre-order for me, because they have gone to great lengths to be respectful and inclusive, and make it possible for their fans to play the way they want to. I applaud them for all they do, and it really is worthy of a standing ovation. Thank you, BioWare!

 

That said, even this amazing company has yet to reach a good place of equality as far as their advertising and marketing go. FemShep was a wonderful character to play as, yet despite her popularity it took until the 3rd game before she was included or acknowledged in the marketing. Well, here we are now at the 3rd Dragon Age title, with nary a female PC having been included in any of the promotional materials or game trailers.

 

Isn't it time to throw us female players a bone again and acknowledge us? FemShep in advertising was awesome! It would be so appreciated if there were even a 30 second trailer sometime before game release, showing a FemInquisitor of any playable race.

 

How about it, BioWare? Don't you want to?

[Allan Schumacher]

I mean, I assume that people who go to conventions (or comment on the forums) are going to be quite a small minority of the game's ~4-5 million players, and an even smaller minority of all of the people who could theoretically want to buy a Dragon Age game. We can't really assume that knowing that (anecdotally) most of the hardcore fans are female would actually change the marketing team's minds, if they have data that shows "male players in the 18-25 demographic" are the most lucrative market this year, or whatever. From a business point of view, those players are more or less as valuable a customer as the most invested fans in the franchise,

 

It is interesting that the majority of the people that play the game likely won't even finish it.  It could probably be presented as a viable argument that the depth of the games is wholly subsidized by people that enjoy the game well enough, but probably don't finish it.  That is, if only the hardcore that loved our games bought them, we'd have to dial back what we deliver with the games.

[Ria Kon]

I play both female and male characters - depends on how I want to roleplay. So far, it's 6 male / 2 female (and 3 male / 2 female for Inquisition are planned). In ME, I played equally 2/2. Although I play more with male characters, I love having the option and would like to see both in trailers etc.

[Fast Jimmy]

It is interesting that the majority of the people that play the game likely won't even finish it. It could probably be presented as a viable argument that the depth of the games is wholly subsidized by people that enjoy the game well enough, but probably don't finish it. That is, if only the hardcore that loved our games bought them, we'd have to dial back what we deliver with the games.

Conversely though, I'm sure while a huge chunk of players don't complete games, the size of players who deliver the word of mouth advertising/sales for a game might be a very small group. Possibly/likely the most hardcore, who not only complete a game but also go back for multiple playthroughs.


So while metrics may say that many players don't see the entire story or go through a second run, it could be that the players who DO are the ones you have to impress for the game to receive the kind of fan acclaim that could translate to sales. I don't have any numbers to back such ideas, but I'd be curious to see if they could be analyzed.

[CuriousArtemis]

As an aside though, I think it would be kind of... educational to play more often as the opposite sex. Just to practice putting yourself in another gender's shoes. I often play as male (for this reason and, honestly, because sometimes I have no other choice). 

 

I usually play as male for the first few playthroughs, especially if it's an RPG with romance, and m/m options are available (since I am a straight female, well, a person in a female body who likes males...).

 

I am stuck in this female body pretty much against my will, so it's such a marvelous pleasure to be able to play as a boy. 

[CuriousArtemis]

I'm actually curious to see what would happen if instead of just putting a male character on the front or making him the dominant figure of the cover instead we have both female and male with equal power over the cover.

 

I really think this could be so easily done, as Mes says; just a stylistic version of the male inquisitor standing perhaps back-to-back with the female version, wearing the same armor and holding the same weapon to show it's truly the same character (your character).

[ElitePinecone]

It is interesting that the majority of the people that play the game likely won't even finish it.  It could probably be presented as a viable argument that the depth of the games is wholly subsidized by people that enjoy the game well enough, but probably don't finish it.  That is, if only the hardcore that loved our games bought them, we'd have to dial back what we deliver with the games.

 

Yeah, this is something that's always interested me. It's a bit of an internal contradiction of AAA games.

 

A much larger mass of what you might call less invested players basically pays for content that they never use, while a tiny fraction of the fans play it over and over again (sometimes dozens of times) to see every bit of content that they possibly can. 

 

... and people decry the casual audience without realising that Bioware couldn't *possibly* make the sorts of games they do if only the hardcore fans bought them. The "casual players" are very literally what makes it possible to do things on this scale. 

[Allan Schumacher]

Conversely though, I'm sure while a huge chunk of players don't complete games, the size of players who deliver the word of mouth advertising/sales for a game might be a very small group. Possibly/likely the most hardcore, who not only complete a game but also go back for multiple playthroughs.


So while metrics may say that many players don't see the entire story or go through a second run, it could be that the players who DO are the ones you have to impress for the game to receive the kind of fan acclaim that could translate to sales. I don't have any numbers to back such ideas, but I'd be curious to see if they could be analyzed.

 

Sure it could be.  I agree that the hardcore can help (assuming they love the game of course) and that it's useful.  It also could not help.  I don't know.

 

But it's hard to say how much they help.  Which is why I refer to marketing more as art rather than a science.  I have no definitive way to measure the level of influence, even if it is logically consistent, because reality often doesn't flow from logical deductions.  The only real way to measure this would probably be far too expensive.

 

Additional questions are along the lines

 

1) even if a person doesn't finish the game, does he or she still enjoy it enough to spread it via word of mouth?

2) Could any of these groups have a negative effect on sales?  If so, why and under what circumstances?  Are all these circumstances equal?

3) Are there particular game features that make word of mouth more/less effective?  Does a particular audience care more (or less) for a particular feature?

 

 

Which is why it's a bit of a chicken and egg problem, IMO.  It's not really something you can create and replicate in an experiment to try to control the variables.  You'll get a game that does well, and it's "see, feature/marketing X worked (or didn't hurt)."  But without an alternate universe to run as a test case, it's hard to say.  And you'll get people that, rightly or wrongly, will go "This game didn't sell as well, and it has a feature in it that was considered potentially risky... I guess that feature was the problem after all!"

[Fast Jimmy]

^

There are many who feel the production costs of games have gone up without underlying content or systems increasing/improving, though. A voiced characters results in a fraction of the total lines, fancier combat animations results in combat mechanics made with action elements in mind instead of strategy, etc. Venues like Kickstarter show that the most hardcore fans can fund a game they value without the extra production value (but the same level of content) as AAA games.

[ElitePinecone]

I really think this could be so easily done, as Mes says; just a stylistic version of the male inquisitor standing perhaps back-to-back with the female version, wearing the same armor and holding the same weapon to show it's truly the same character (your character).

 

I'm sure marketing would come up with a reason why that would still be confusing to some people, though. When you want to communicate something as simply and directly as possible, something that relies on close examination of the two characters might be problematic. 

 

"Oh, you play as a brother and sister?"

"Oh, cool, they're clones!" 

"Is it two-player co-op?"

 

etc. It could be done, but I'm not sure marketing would feel the same way. 

 

What about just an Inquisition helmet? The absence of any humans on the cover didn't seem to hurt Skyrim *at all*. 

[9TailsFox]

I'm sure marketing would come up with a reason why that would still be confusing to some people, though. When you want to communicate something as simply and directly as possible, something that relies on close examination of the two characters might be problematic. 

 

"Oh, you play as a brother and sister?"

"Oh, cool, they're clones!" 

"Is it two-player co-op?"

 

etc. It could be done, but I'm not sure marketing would feel the same way. 

 

What about just an Inquisition helmet? The absence of any humans on the cover didn't seem to hurt Skyrim *at all*. 

I agree on if I see 2 characters on cover and it is game I know nothing about first thought. If characters look similar second thought I play as twins. And Skyrim is bad example it is 5 game. People didn't buy Skyrim because of cover but only because it's The elder scrolls. At this point all marketing elder scrolls need is we making 6 game and what's it. I think people give to much credit for marketing, I think with sequels mostly people like I buy it because it's Dragon age "And yes I liked DA2 fu.. me right" Or some people don't buy because it's dragon age. DA:I trailer can be Sandal riding dragon for what I care I still buy it because I know what to expect.

[Allan Schumacher]

^

There are many who feel the production costs of games have gone up without underlying content or systems increasing/improving, though. A voiced characters results in a fraction of the total lines, fancier combat animations results in combat mechanics made with action elements in mind instead of strategy, etc. Venues like Kickstarter show that the most hardcore fans can fund a game they value without the extra production value (but the same level of content) as AAA games.

 

Oh yes, I'm sure that there are some people that would love that.  I'm sure that there are some people that would be very disappointed by it too.

 

The jury is still somewhat out for Kickstarter IMO.  The higher profile games, like Broken Age, Wasteland 2, and Project Eternity, still have to come to pass.  I regularly follow Project Eternity (and to a lesser extent Wasteland 2) and there are those that are upset because features are (or are not in) that they assumed would be.  There was a large Fallout-Wasteland split for Wasteland 2 and Pillars of Eternity will not have any romances, for example, and both created reasonably "loud" threads with a hefty amount of arguing.

 

The Eternity one is interesting, IMO, because "everyone agreed" that games should go back to the isometric style like the Infinity Engine games, but once that was established the aspects that were considered vital in order to be a game that represented an Infinity Engine game were hotly debated.

[Allan Schumacher]

After writing that, I do think it's important to point out that "hardcore" need not mean "old school" either.  I know some hardcore BioWare fans that were introduced to the studio because of Dragon Age 2.

[ElitePinecone]

^ I think, if anything, that's one of the dangers of forming a fan community comprised specifically (and intentionally!) of the most hardcore, nitpicky, invested people. If you're pitching your game at a niche audience, that audience are going to be knowledgeable about what they want, not afraid to say it, and - in all likelihood - with a fair degree of entitlement that comes with the feeling of financially investing in a project. Managing those dynamics must be one of the hardest things about the biggest Kickstarter projects.

 

(It's something I've noticed on Star Citizen, for example, where people are 'invested' to the point of spending thousands or tens of thousands of dollars on fictional ships that don't exist yet - and they feel very entitled to give their opinion as a result.)

 

With Bioware's products you have the ~90% of people or whatever who buy the game and never comment on it, so I don't think there's that sense of fan 'feedback' being the be-all and end-all. Although they (we?) can certainly make an awful lot of noise when aggrieved (hi, ME3), there's probably less pressure to cater to the hardcore people exclusively when you know for a fact that a majority of your players *aren't* invested at all and didn't finish the game once. 

 

And I think that kind of dichotomy (between the hard-core players and fans who might decide to buy Dragon Age when they walk into a shop) is sort of the elephant in the room that stands awkwardly in the corner of a lot of debates here. To get back on topic, maybe in marketing's eyes it really does make sense to have a trailer with Swordy McSword Whitebro when that's exactly the sort of thing that *will* attract more of those fans who will buy the game but not necessarily get deeply invested in it?

[Fast Jimmy]

Well, I think extolling or criticizing the virtues of Kickstarter isn't really here nor there for this particular conversation. I was simply using it as a reference that production value isn't a required aspect of games. So what those "casual" gamers are subsidizing isn't neccessarily benefiting the game design/development of games the "hardcore" want. At least not neccessarily.

[Fast Jimmy]

After writing that, I do think it's important to point out that "hardcore" need not mean "old school" either. I know some hardcore BioWare fans that were introduced to the studio because of Dragon Age 2.

Very true. I tried using "casual" and "hardcore" in quotations, just to show the terms were being used in a more conceptual manner.

[Allan Schumacher]

Well, I think extolling or criticizing the virtues of Kickstarter isn't really here nor there for this particular conversation. I was simply using it as a reference that production value isn't a required aspect of games. So what those "casual" gamers are subsidizing isn't neccessarily benefiting the game design/development of games the "hardcore" want. At least not neccessarily.

 

Fair point.  Though I think it's still an interesting side note when looking at a fanbase and trying to reconcile marketing perspectives.  And yeah, I just wanted to call out the "hardcore" distinction.

 

I think humans have a problem with assuming that because they fit in a group, all members of that group are innately unified in almost every capacity (I do the same).