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[oceanicsurvivor]

I love women, I mean not just romntically or sexually but I love who we are and the characters we can be and our differences and wide varieties. I would like to think we can do this harmony thing a good deal better than the guys. Give and take. And I love the characters that are produced, for us.

I think what has been keeping us back, story wise is men have wanted to give us 1 story. The beautiful/sexy girl of their dreams/nightmares

But imagine, just once, female characters that are not based on their being female, but our wondrous and varied personalities.
All female Cast(shouldnt happen because who would straight girls romance? But just for thought the variety)
*snip*

 

This sounds amazing; day one, super deluxe edition buy on all platforms awesome . If these were the companions, I'd say add in Iron Bull, Varric, and Dorian, as the guys, and make it a 6:3 split that way

[Tayah]

I totally agree, but I wouldn't trade Vivienne for a male version in a million years.  To me, she is so important as she is.  A black woman in power?  A woman with a shaved head?  A fashionista who covers herself from head to toe?  A fashionista whose clothing serves additional functions (and not in a "power of seduction" kind of way but in a "literally interwoven with armor" kind of way)?  Despite my misgivings about how all the female companions are gorgeous and have the same body, I do really think so many things about Vivienne are downright radical. 

 

But I completely agree with the principle of the thing.  Why not a female Iron Bull?  

No I don't actually want to trade Vivienne either, I think she is totally fantastic and one of the companions I'm most looking forward to meeting, I knew there was a flaw in my example I think I should have said Sera or Scribbles actually. 

 

Yes a female Iron Bull would be awesome 

[kjdhgfiliuhwe]

I've never understood the logic behind male characters because men predominantly make up the gaming populace.

 

Last I checked, sex sells, and as demeaning as it may be, I have a hard time believing a pretty woman plastered everywhere would sell less copies than a man plastered everywhere in what is supposed to be a market dominated by men.

 

But, maybe I'm too cynical about the human condition and the gaming population that is supposed to be filled with men is somehow far more progressive about sex and gender than I could ever have believed. <insert tongue-in-cheek-emoji>

[karushna5]

Yes this is what is so annoying, it's like most people design the characters of guys first then their look but with female characters they start with the looks (which have to be as sexy as possible) and then throw one or two character traits at her afterwards usually geared to her being motivation to the male characters anyway. Why can't you design character/personality first then pick the gender and finally come up with varied looks for both genders. Maybe randomise the genders or pull them out of a hat and see where that goes if you're always making the most varied characters male. Just a thought.
 
I'm reserving judgement on the companions in inquisition but except for existing characters I can't see any reason to assign the genders the way they have been for the companions we're about to get. I mean the concept of Iron Bull as a female qunari warrior with a mercenary background and how she picked up arms in the first place could be just as interesting. Swapping Solas to a female version of a fade specialist (especially considering Cole is a male spirit) could have worked too and much as I love Vivienne the concept could still have worked for a male in that position. If you start with the character concept and then assign the gender last it would be interesting to see the results if that assignment were random I mean. This is probably a flawed example but it's the best I can think of at the moment of what I mean by starting with the character rather than the gender.
 
And I really like your examples of an all female cast Karushna5 they were all interesting and varied character concepts. 
 
At Karushna5 Actually thinking about it you could change the gender randomly of a couple of your characters to give straight girls and gay guys options too as you're still starting with the character first and looks second.    Or add a couple more concepts for males that also start with character then gender. I don't mean any disrespect by the way just seeing so many possibilities now so thanks for the examples. 

Oh no, as I said, I dont want this since even the most dudebro games at least have 1 woman be the love intrest, and I am no writer and doubt whether any of these concepts could actually work with a game format. I just meant that concepts can be varied with women, different kinds of women, from sweet Templar out for a grudge, or Necromancer out for Ascendence. Honestly this cast would probably not blend or what have you. It was less what should be, and more the absolute variance between characters.

A woman who is both smart and Active, (I really think examining the difference between smart male characters and smart women characters is revealing when it comes to active/passive liara vs Mordin) Or a woman who is very promiscuous AND respected, for once I want women to get a lovable rake rather than a woman everyone and their brother call a ****. A woman monster, not the cute kind but all the truly evil scary just to be scary are men, not because they are sexy and use their wiles against you, but because they are dangerous.

War veterans who have seen it all, champions for their people, Cowards(for some reason famous negative traits rarely show up for women other than greed and only then when using the guy to get the money, partly because cowardice is expected in women and thus subtly considered a trait rather than a flaw) It was more a shot at a varied lot rather than an actual team. But can you imagine a group of mostly women as varied as the sun?

And as you said, i am actually really happy with the women available they Definitely are more than just eye candy and seem powerful characters in their own right. But the idea of a large and varied group of women with incredibly different personalities is an interesting idea I think.

[Tayah]

Oh no, as I said, I dont want this since even the most dudebro games at least have 1 woman be the love intrest, and I am no writer and doubt whether any of these concepts could actually work with a game format. I just meant that concepts can be varied with women, different kinds of women, from sweet Templar out for a grudge, or Necromancer out for Ascendence. Honestly this cast would probably not blend or what have you. It was less what should be, and more the absolute variance between characters.

A woman who is both smart and Active, (I really think examining the difference between smart male characters and smart women characters is revealing when it comes to active/passive liara vs Mordin) Or a woman who is very promiscuous AND respected, for once I want women to get a lovable rake rather than a woman everyone and their brother call a ****. A woman monster, not the cute kind but all the truly evil scary just to be scary are men, not because they are sexy and use their wiles against you, but because they are dangerous.

War veterans who have seen it all, champions for their people, Cowards(for some reason famous negative traits rarely show up for women other than greed and only then when using the guy to get the money, partly because cowardice is expected in women and thus subtly considered a trait rather than a flaw) It was more a shot at a varied lot rather than an actual team. But can you imagine a group of mostly women as varied as the sun?

And as you said, i am actually really happy with the women available they Definitely are more than just eye candy and seem powerful characters in their own right. But the idea of a large and varied group of women with incredibly different personalities is an interesting idea I think.

I was agreeing with you actually and just shamelessly (nearly) using your post to back up my suggestion that if you write the character first and virtually flip a coin for gender you would end up with a variety of interesting characters regardless of whether they were male or female... sorry if there was any confusion. 

 

I was actually hoping we'd have a 5:4 gender split among the companions and while realistically I expected it to be 5:4 male to female I would have loved it if it had been the other way around with five very different ladies in your party for a change.  

 

With the three major advisory pcs (speculated) a 5:4 male to female companion split would have led to an even 6:6 major companion and npc split which would have been a fair and equal breakdown and a great chance for more diversity among the ladies too. 

[karushna5]

I am fond of the gender flip and I think the answer to a lot of women writing issues. My profile pic is my way of showcasing that, because I think it is very important for women to have variety. But learning how to write women is hard even for us women. I think the gender flip and then writers wondering why a gender flip will or will not work is a good learning process.

For example, Alistair would be the worst woman ever. He would so stereotypical, it would hurt. I think her romance would have been more popular than Leliana and more disliked by us than almost any of the others.

[oceanicsurvivor]

For example, Alistair would be the worst woman ever. He would so stereotypical, it would hurt. I think her romance would have been more popular than Leliana and more disliked by us than almost any of the others.

If you don't mind me asking, how do you mean?

[Ryzaki]

I am fond of the gender flip and I think the answer to a lot of women writing issues. My profile pic is my way of showcasing that, because I think it is very important for women to have variety. But learning how to write women is hard even for us women. I think the gender flip and then writers wondering why a gender flip will or will not work is a good learning process.

For example, Alistair would be the worst woman ever. He would so stereotypical, it would hurt. I think her romance would have been more popular than Leliana and more disliked by us than almost any of the others.

 

It's stereotypical to hand your girlfriend over to a jerkass male that she openly hates in the hopes of getting her preggo to save your lives?

[karushna5]

It's stereotypical to hand your girlfriend over to a jerkass male that she openly hates in the hopes of getting her preggo to save your lives?

No...but, she would be having talks about making fun that she is a virgin, her insisting she prefers to follow then lead and the absolute hatred between Morrigan and her. Forcing her on the throne even if she really doesnt want to. Noran (Anora) and their relationship if married would be much more problematic. Gossiping about everyone in camp. I would still enjoy her very much, but I do believe she would be much more promlematic than say a reversed Zevran or Sten.

(Of course pregnancy plots are the only plots truly difficult to genderbend which is why I am only genderbending him and guessing Morrigan did it some other way)

[Ryzaki]

No...but, she would be having talks about making fun that she is a virgin, her insisting she prefers to follow then lead and the absolute hatred between Morrigan and her. Forcing her on the throne even if she really doesnt want to. Noran (Anora) and their relationship if married would be much more problematic. Gossiping about everyone in camp. I would still enjoy her very much, but I do believe she would be much more promlematic than say a reversed Zevran or Sten.

(Of course pregnancy plots are the only plots truly difficult to genderbend which is why I am only genderbending him and guessing Morrigan did it some other way)

 

True but it would be a unique twist for a gender bendered Morrigan and Alistair to do the DR. But yeah she'd be a very unique female.

 

I guess Morrigan's name would turn to Morgan? That works for a dude.

 

Not at all. Just gender bend both of them.

[karushna5]

That would still be a difficult lot. The morrigan I know would never trust the OGB with Alistair. And Alistair would never give up his child to Morrigan. Also no disappearing into the night, and Alistair may agree to sleep with her once to save their lives, but not to get pregnant.

Also, main characters getting pregnant is bad treading on a game designers deal. I would not be a dragon age fan if the only way for me to survive the first game was to either convince my best friend to get pregnant and have her baby stolen by the man she most hates or for ME to get pregnant with Morgan.

DA over and in my opinion would have been WAY more sexist than most games.

The whole way the story works would be jilted. Morgan would do something else. He would be smart and clever with a plan B well in hand. (although my inner arthurian wants to call her Mordred)

[Ryzaki]

Male Alistair might not agree to get pregnant. Fem alistair might be a bit different. (And Morgan wouldn't trust her with the babe that's why he'd stay with her during the pregnancy. That and to make sure the kid was healthy) end game scene would happen a year after the archedemon feel. (Or maybe a spell to hasten pregnancy and it's still six months later).

 

Of course it'd be uber squicky and terrible. Much like it is now.

 

Eh it didn't have the best track record in DAO to begin with thankfully future games got a lot better at that.

 

I don't see why. He would've offered and if you said no would've shrugged and moved on much like Morrigan does. OGB would've been a loss to him though.

 

But I don't find it that utterly unbelievable (then again I find the whole sex or die plot utterly stupid to begin with changing the genders doesn't make it less ridiculous to me).

[karushna5]

Male Alistair might not agree to get pregnant. Fem alistair might be a bit different. (And Morgan wouldn't trust her with the babe that's why he'd stay with her during the pregnancy. That and to make sure the kid was healthy) end game scene would happen a year after the archedemon feel. (Or maybe a spell to hasten pregnancy and it's still six months later).
 
Of course it'd be uber squicky and terrible. Much like it is now.
 
Eh it didn't have the best track record in DAO to begin with thankfully future games got a lot better at that.
 
I don't see why. He would've offered and if you said no would've shrugged and moved on much like Morrigan does. OGB would've been a loss to him though.

If you mention a kid to Alistair he starts backing out. And if they are completely different personalities it doesnt seem like an actual genderbend.

But then I die, since Alison would only willingly sacrifice for her lover...The Male Warden. The dark ritual is the most common option in the game, but I think it genderbend would have just made a whole bunch of dead Alisons.

I do think there is a big difference between say a woman who wants to get pregnant offering death or a one night stand in reprieve, and a man offering death or getting pregnant you pregnant for a reprieve, which he then afterwards might steal the baby from you.

[Ryzaki]

If you mention a kid to Alistair he starts backing out. And if they are completely different personalities it doesnt seem like an actual genderbend.

But then I die, since Alison would only willingly sacrifice for her lover...The Male Warden. The dark ritual is the most common option in the game, but I think it genderbend would have just made a whole bunch of dead Alisons.

I do think there is a big difference between say a woman who wants to get pregnant offering death or a one night stand in reprieve, and a man offering death or getting pregnant you pregnant for a reprieve, which he then afterwards might steal the baby from you.

 

Not if you pass the persuade he doesn't. I always tell him exactly what he's getting into. Lying just feels ridiculous. His personality would be slightly different through sheer virtue of being a different gender. Unless you expect Morgan to still find females superior and males fools despite being male?

 

I only picked the DR because continuity in awakening. In the Keep I'm probably gonna have it so my warden picked redeemer. DR gives me a really sour taste in my mouth.

 

There is no might steal the baby. The baby is the price you're paying for your life in either scenario.  Only difference is male Alistair never has any contact whatsoever with it. Honestly this to me would actually feel like a heavy price for all protags instead of the lol one night with hot chick then ignore it forever price you get now with a male protag. But that's me wanting everyone to suffer with me

[karushna5]

Eh, it leaves a much worse taste in my mouth like that. Its late agree to disagree?

In my opinion DA would have been better if there was something other than the DR. Juxtaposing, maybe kill Alistair, sacrifice yourself, or let the taint run through cursing the land, but by spreading it out not as bad.

Would have been more morally grey.

[Ryzaki]

Not at all. My POV is the DR should leave a disgusting taste in your mouth. So the whole gender bender thing is more in line with that.

 

Agreed though. Sex to live trope is bleh. I'd preferred something like losing a part of my PC's soul or something. A actual personal price.

 

But you can kill Alistair anyway by making him kill archie

[Tayah]

On the DR thing I vaguely remember maybe on his blog that David Gaider said they initially thought about making it possible for the DR to be performed by a warden of either gender before realising they were going to have trouble explaining that and taking it the way they did. Because of their specific roles in the plot of DAO it might be harder to gender swap Alistair and Morrigan but the others would have been more easily possible. You could have easily changed the genders of companions in DA2 and not majorly affected their characters... except Isabella as a man would have been treated very differently of course and perhaps have then been different too.

 

Admittedly I was mostly talking about Inquisition because there are so many more male than female companions in the upcoming game and with several of the main supporting cast returning from previous games I was thinking about the concepts of the new characters. I'm no writer I just looked at that picture of the companions and advisors (assuming that's the role of the three NPCs) and wondered why there couldn't have been another female in that cast. It turns out this is my pet disappointment rather as for some it's that they can't play as a city elf.  

 

Of course if they'd shown the cast with female inquisitor it might have taken me longer than 2 seconds to notice.     

[karushna5]

Lol, agreed. I do agree with Inquisition. I have said in the past women are harder to gender swap then guys because they are generally written as women first. But who wants the women to be men? I was dissapointed as well that out of 9 companions, 6 of them are men, and even with the NPCs, it is a 7/5 ratio when it easily could have been 6/6

To me, Cole will have to prove himself. He is from a different media, and I am suspect of him. Be pretty cool if he was a she. It is irrational, but generally, I dont like multimedia tie ins. As always, I keep an open mind, but if one of them had been gender swapped, I would have been pleased as punch.

[In Exile]

I've never understood the logic behind male characters because men predominantly make up the gaming populace.

 

Last I checked, sex sells, and as demeaning as it may be, I have a hard time believing a pretty woman plastered everywhere would sell less copies than a man plastered everywhere in what is supposed to be a market dominated by men.

 

But, maybe I'm too cynical about the human condition and the gaming population that is supposed to be filled with men is somehow far more progressive about sex and gender than I could ever have believed. <insert tongue-in-cheek-emoji>

 

Are we talking about male main characters or male NPCs?

To illustrate what I mean in the extreme sense, think Female PC + 9 male companions or Male PC + 9 female companions. The impression that creates is very different.

[Gregolian]

I've never understood the logic behind male characters because men predominantly make up the gaming populace.

 

Last I checked, sex sells, and as demeaning as it may be, I have a hard time believing a pretty woman plastered everywhere would sell less copies than a man plastered everywhere in what is supposed to be a market dominated by men.

 

But, maybe I'm too cynical about the human condition and the gaming population that is supposed to be filled with men is somehow far more progressive about sex and gender than I could ever have believed. <insert tongue-in-cheek-emoji>

As a guy I have always seemingly struggled to finish RPGs as a created female character.  Either I go in and create them and absolutely butcher the face or because I start it shortly after finishing an initial run through I begin to lose interest.  I have only ever finished one run through of Origins and 2 as a female while I have about 4-5 in both games as males.

[Nefla]

As a guy I have always seemingly struggled to finish RPGs as a created female character.  Either I go in and create them and absolutely butcher the face or because I start it shortly after finishing an initial run through I begin to lose interest.  I have only ever finished one run through of Origins and 2 as a female while I have about 4-5 in both games as males.

At least you try. Many guys won't even play as a woman. I blame the way women are portrayed in most games because it makes them unrelatable and one dimensional.

[Gregolian]

At least you try. Many guys won't even play as a woman. I blame the way women are portrayed in most games because it makes them unrelatable and one dimensional.

I've been able to do complete run through as a female in KOTOR, DA:O/Awakenings, DAII, ME1, ME2.

 

So I guess I get more complete run throughs than I realized.

[Kaiser Wilhelm]

At least you try. Many guys won't even play as a woman. I blame the way women are portrayed in most games because it makes them unrelatable and one dimensional.

If I have a choice, I almost never choose a white male as my protagonist.  I want to stretch my horizons, learn to identify with others, so I often try to create a character who is, at least visually, as different as possible from myself.  Now, I do have a hard time role-playing motivations or emotional reactions other than my own, but I think it's at least a step to place those motivations in someone very different from myself.  I like to stretch my imagination and my capacity for empathy.

[aTigerslunch]

I play male and female equally with out having not much problems in either aspect. Maybe due to having too many sisters and one brother, too many female cousins than male, not sure why. I do know I'm quite empathic, feeling others emotions is pretty easy to me.

[karushna5]

As a guy I have always seemingly struggled to finish RPGs as a created female character.  Either I go in and create them and absolutely butcher the face or because I start it shortly after finishing an initial run through I begin to lose interest.  I have only ever finished one run through of Origins and 2 as a female while I have about 4-5 in both games as males.

Yeah, I am a woman and used to have the same issues. It has a whole lot to do with how female characters are portrayed in media as a whole, so imagining their stories can be hard. Also because women are always expected to identify with male protagonists(or there would never be a protagonist) while women rarely have stories of our own or exist for a male side character who is the actual protagonist.

sleeping beauty and Snow White are famous female protagonists who are actually victims of their own story. Neither of them save the day and in fact are rescued by nameless men. This can make women stories seem uninteresting to both men&women. A certain expectation. Even in modern women stories, Tangled, Flynn is obviously the protagonist. Brave had a lack of an actual villain and was a comedy of Errors, even Frozen it was a betrayal of love and self journey(which is an interesting way to tell a woman's story) and as soon as that is resolved it is accepted the "battle" is over.

Realizing that almost any man story is interchangeable with a womans(the exception, of course, is pregnancy and being an unwitting mother, unless there is a whole other stuff involved, you are going to know you gave birth) The idea that women are different creates a wide barrier in which it is entirely reasonable, in fiction, to hardly ever meet a woman of a particular race or place in society. That unless a woman is needed, she is never used.

This creates stories like Avengers where you have a 6 different guys and 1 woman. This despite that women are 51/49of the world. Some studies even showed that a man or a woman will look at a crowd of 1/3 women and call it equal while a complete 50/50 split they feel the women are overly numerous compared to men. This due to the media, and other things, saying men and women are so fundamentally different as to warrant women appearing in only the roles they are suited, romance and familial obligations.