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[Fast Jimmy]

Fair point. Though I think it's still an interesting side note when looking at a fanbase and trying to reconcile marketing perspectives. And yeah, I just wanted to call out the "hardcore" distinction.

I think humans have a problem with assuming that because they fit in a group, all members of that group are innately unified in almost every capacity (I do the same).

Without a doubt. The use of the word "hardcore" in light of this discussion is particularly thorny. A hardcore gamer may be the type who is stereotypical CoD player who buys a DA game because it has a dudebro on the front and it looks like an action game. Or a hardcore gamer may be a DA fan who loves things like the DA characters and romances. Or a hardcore gamer may be someone who is a grognard and wants hardcore RPG elements to be the focus of the DA games. It's all relative to context.

That being said, back to the original idea of the conversation... does it make more sense to include a dudebro to attract the more "mainstream" white male gamer? Does it make more sense to include a woman to attract/engage the female gamer base? Does it make more sense to not include/market any set protagonist at all, since character creation and options are a focal point of the game design? These are questions I'm sure someone within the company has to review and answer, I'm just curious what information/impressions are influencing said choices.

[Mes]

I usually play as male for the first few playthroughs, especially if it's an RPG with romance, and m/m options are available (since I am a straight female, well, a person in a female body who likes males...).

 

I am stuck in this female body pretty much against my will, so it's such a marvelous pleasure to be able to play as a boy. 

 

I almost always play as a male at least once in games with m/m options!! High five! 

[Darth Krytie]

I almost always play as a male at least once in games with m/m options!! High five! 

Same. (I did a playthrough for each romance in origins, all of MEs--except Jacob, and I romanced Fenris, Anders (17 times, so far), and Isabella by both lady/dude hawkes in DA2).

 

 

I would like to see a step away from the straight, white dudebro being the face of every game. It tends to make all games blend together in a pit of blah for me. If there was a way to do a sort an ad with a variety of different protags in different shots, I think that'd be neat. Like, in this one shot, you have a lady, another you have a dude, and maybe not have them be white as well as what the gaming industry (and at least us society) thinks as is the default person.

 

Maybe it's too expensive for the rendered shots, but at least they can do that for the gameplay scenes?

[Mes]

Same. (I did a playthrough for each romance in origins, all of MEs--except Jacob, and I romanced Fenris, Anders (17 times, so far), and Isabella by both lady/dude hawkes in DA2).

 

 

I would like to see a step away from the straight, white dudebro being the face of every game. It tends to make all games blend together in a pit of blah for me. If there was a way to do a sort an ad with a variety of different protags in different shots, I think that'd be neat. Like, in this one shot, you have a lady, another you have a dude, and maybe not have them be white as well as what the gaming industry (and at least us society) thinks as is the default person.

 

Maybe it's too expensive for the rendered shots, but at least they can do that for the gameplay scenes?

 

Wow that's an impressive list of playthroughs! Funnily enough I can never manage to romance a woman... But I most definitely will give Cassandra a go in DAI. I just love her so far. Was *this close* to romancing Miranda with mShep but then felt guilty because Kaidan is his one true love, la la la la.... 

 

I completely agree that they just need better advertising. And to be honest I'm getting a tiny bit tired of all the excuses... not enough money, not enough time, resources, blah blah. Surely just a mysterious shadowy figure on the cover would be better than a dude bro. 

[karushna5]

That being said, back to the original idea of the conversation... does it make more sense to include a dudebro to attract the more "mainstream" white male gamer? Does it make more sense to include a woman to attract/engage the female gamer base? Does it make more sense to not include/market any set protagonist at all, since character creation and options are a focal point of the game design? These are questions I'm sure someone within the company has to review and answer, I'm just curious what information/impressions are influencing said choices.

But the thing is, mainstream is taken for granted,and not nearly as mainstream as they think. Although showing a set protagonist is probably not a good idea since there are so many possible protagonists, but one trailer showing your possibilities. Including how you can be other people by saying it. As long as the trailer stresses customization, I dont see how they can miss out.

Variety of men, women, of different skin tones and playable races. Say it is not a MMO, and hint at a few choices, like "I decide who becomes king" "I fight for the elves" Makes sense to advertise their strengths, and whether people want to recognize it or not, character depth and interactivity is what makes Bioware stand out.

[Fast Jimmy]

But the thing is, mainstream is taken for granted,and not nearly as mainstream as they think. Although showing a set protagonist is probably not a good idea since there are so many possible protagonists, but one trailer showing your possibilities. Including how you can be other people by saying it. As long as the trailer stresses customization, I dont see how they can miss out.

Variety of men, women, of different skin tones and playable races. Say it is not a MMO, and hint at a few choices, like "I decide who becomes king" "I fight for the elves" Makes sense to advertise their strengths, and whether people want to recognize it or not, character depth and interactivity is what makes Bioware stand out.

 

Makes sense to me. I'm not sure it makes sense to Fernando Melo or some of other Marketing staff, but it makes sense to me.

[syllogi]

Although I'm most interested in seeing female qunari in marketing at the moment, and female dwarves in this new engine after that, I have to admit I've been sighing a bit lately when I see all of the enthusiastic discussion of who could be voicing the Male Inquisitor.  Because this feels so very familiar, getting glimpses and information about the male version of the character months, if not a whole year, before we see or hear anything about the female player character.  And yeah, I'm jealous, because I don't have any interest in playing male characters whenever I have a choice, so I'm excluded from the geeking out that others get to do at this point.  

 

Obviously, there's time before the game comes out to show us more of female versions of the character, and her voice, but considering how little we've gotten in the past from certain games (ME2's marketing comes to mind), I do still worry that I'll be sitting in a thread on this forum with all the other sad female PC fans, wondering if/when we'll get any love up until the last minute.

[Fast Jimmy]

Although I'm most interested in seeing female qunari in marketing at the moment, and female dwarves in this new engine after that, I have to admit I've been sighing a bit lately when I see all of the enthusiastic discussion of who could be voicing the Male Inquisitor.  Because this feels so very familiar, getting glimpses and information about the male version of the character months, if not a whole year, before we see or hear anything about the female player character.  And yeah, I'm jealous, because I don't have any interest in playing male characters whenever I have a choice, so I'm excluded from the geeking out that others get to do at this point.  

 

Obviously, there's time before the game comes out to show us more of female versions of the character, and her voice, but considering how little we've gotten in the past from certain games (ME2's marketing comes to mind), I do still worry that I'll be sitting in a thread on this forum with all the other sad female PC fans, wondering if/when we'll get any love up until the last minute.

 

Since the PC will be voiced no matter what, I wouldn't be opposed to hearing the female Inquisitor doing voiceovers in promos, anymore than I'd be opposed to hearing the male. Equal representation there would be nice.

 

However, I'd like to draw the line there. Don't show us what the "real" Inquisitors look like (male OR female). Because there SHOULDN'T be a real or default Inquisitor. To even suggest there is counteracts likely THOUSANDS of manhours worth of work at Bioware to create a game where multiple races, genders and classes are possible. Why demean that by advertising your game with a set character, when the options are more varied than they have ever been?

[GVulture]

I DO think that something that marketing needs to consider is that the amount of female gamers, who don't closely follow a studio, (ie someone entirely new) might be swayed to pick up a game that features a woman on the cover just because FEMALE PROTAGONIST. Whereas a guy would pick it up and go DRAGONS! SWORDS! ((hot chick with a sword!)) 

 

Personal experience, when I go browsing for new things, if there is a woman on the cover that doesn't immediately hit my NOPE! buttons, I will pick it up and read the back. If it looks good and the female character was the protagonist, I BUY it. If it doesn't, (or the female character was secondary) I will rent it on Gamefly. =p This is how I got into the Resident Evil and Dino Crisis series. This is how I got into Tomb Raider, even Blood Rayne. This is why I bought Final Fantasy game after Final Fantasy game. Mercenaries is still one of my favorite games and I picked up because Jennifer Mui was on the cover.

 

When you have gamers that are desperate for that kind of game, what sense does it make to hide it behind a male protagonist? Not to mention all the craptacular "BUT BROSHEP IS CANON! HE'S ON THE COVER!" when the devs say there is no canon? ((Also, you just KNOW that if Mass Effect had featured FemShep on each of the covers instead there would be no one mistaking her for canon or default.))

 

By not putting the lady lead on the cover, you risk a large portion of the market never picking up the game in the first place and to be honest, a guy will still look at the game if the lady is pretty and there is no way that games like Dragon Age could be considered a "girly game" so you shouldn't lose much there.

[Fast Jimmy]

^

Making purchase decisions based solely on box art and description is one I'd not recommend any sane consumer do for video games. 

[Brass_Buckles]

Something that Bioware seems to have moved to--though I don't know if they will stay on this thread of marketing or not--is picking an "iconic figure" for each game series.  For Mass Effect, it was Shepard, and Femshep came as an afterthought, almost, around ME3.  I was one of the people who pushed for Femshep marketing before this happened, though I'm sure that they had already planned it before I made that thread.  That thread, too, was very popular--which I admit is part of the reason I made this thread.  People notice, and people agree, and sometimes people are afraid to speak up and ask for what they want.  But if we stay quiet, no one knows what we want.  We have to ask--and it doesn't have to be rudely--before we're listened to.

 

I digress.  Back on the Iconic Character thing.  Hawke was heavily promoted as male, even though there was also a female version.  She didn't get much if any promotion at all, except, just as the DAI Female Inquisitor, in concept art and maybe a screenshot or two later on.

 

But I agree with others, since this time around we can choose our race, our class, our gender--the iconic character isn't going to work.  Or, you're going to need a lot more iconic characters.  I can picture in my head this group of males on one side of the box art:  Dwarf, Human, Qunari, Elf, in that order.  And on the other side, the ladies.  They could have varying skintones and varying classes.  In some Dragon Age looking font over the top of some iconic blood splashes (maybe with NPC silhouettes like the box art of DA2) at the bottom of the box, you'd have a line of text on either side reading:  Your Inquisitor.  Your choices. Your story.

 

Maybe go with a black box this time, and have the characters spotlighted in white, revealing the iconic blood spatters in the background behind them.  Just to bring in that sense of "questioning," you know, like an interrogation room maybe...

 

It would be epic.  And if that could be added into the trailer somehow... around that theme?  It'd be a lot more interesting than heavy metal, I think.

 

... Man.  Not even at work and still mentally designing ads...

[CuriousArtemis]

After writing that, I do think it's important to point out that "hardcore" need not mean "old school" either.  I know some hardcore BioWare fans that were introduced to the studio because of Dragon Age 2.

 

That would be me

[GVulture]

^

Making purchase decisions based solely on box art and description is one I'd not recommend any sane consumer do for video games. 

There are not many games that fall into my prerequisites for an instant buy.

[syllogi]

Since the PC will be voiced no matter what, I wouldn't be opposed to hearing the female Inquisitor doing voiceovers in promos, anymore than I'd be opposed to hearing the male. Equal representation there would be nice.

 

However, I'd like to draw the line there. Don't show us what the "real" Inquisitors look like (male OR female). Because there SHOULDN'T be a real or default Inquisitor. To even suggest there is counteracts likely THOUSANDS of manhours worth of work at Bioware to create a game where multiple races, genders and classes are possible. Why demean that by advertising your game with a set character, when the options are more varied than they have ever been?

 

I didn't say anything about a "real" Inquisitor, that sounds too close to creating a "canon" or default version of the main character, and I agree with you that that's not necessary.

 

But considering how much discussion there was after this last video of Cassandra's animations, for example, I think showing female versions of the Inquisitor, in game, is a good thing as part of the marketing campaign, because we do obviously care, and LOVE to analyze every little bit of info we're given.  And it would be great to be able to give feedback on the female version of the player character in a timely manner, rather than after the game has gone gold and there's no point.

[Fast Jimmy]

I didn't say anything about a "real" Inquisitor, that sounds too close to creating a "canon" or default version of the main character, and I agree with you that that's not necessary.

 

But considering how much discussion there was after this last video of Cassandra's animations, for example, I think showing female versions of the Inquisitor, in game, is a good thing as part of the marketing campaign, because we do obviously care, and LOVE to analyze every little bit of info we're given.  And it would be great to be able to give feedback on the female version of the player character in a timely manner, rather than after the game has gone gold and there's no point.

 

 

How is that not a default/canon/set-protagonist-for-the-purposes-of-marketing-and-marketing-purposes-alone, though? 

[Nefla]

^

Making purchase decisions based solely on box art and description is one I'd not recommend any sane consumer do for video games. 

 

And yet many people do. If nothing else you aren't going to want to research a game that looks dumb to you. Tell the truth, when you go into a game store and see the latest Barbie pink sparkle adventure game, do you pick it up, read the back, look online for player and magazine reviews, etc? Or do you keep walking because it looks like something you wouldn't like? There has to be something there to spark that initial interest. If it hadn't been for my cousin bringing DA:O to my house and telling me to play it, (after which I immediately bought Jade Empire, KotOR, and ME1) I never would have discovered BioWare games and that would have been a horrible shame since they're the games that I love the most. The marketing and box art makes story/character centric games with great roleplaying abilities and the ability to play as either gender look like generic shooter/hack n slash with a generic dudebro.

[Bekkael]

It certainly does feel like we females are 2nd class citizens to game designers. That's probably not the message they are wanting to send us, but as syllogi mentions, when all the reveals and information are SOLELY focused on the male player character, how exactly are we supposed to feel anything other than ignored and unimportant?

[Fast Jimmy]

And yet many people do. If nothing else you aren't going to want to research a game that looks dumb to you. Tell the truth, when you go into a game store and see the latest Barbie pink sparkle adventure game, do you pick it up, read the back, look online for player and magazine reviews, etc? Or do you keep walking because it looks like something you wouldn't like? There has to be something there to spark that initial interest. If it hadn't been for my cousin bringing DA:O to my house and telling me to play it, (after which I immediately bought Jade Empire, KotOR, and ME1) I never would have discovered BioWare games and that would have been a horrible shame since they're the games that I love the most. The marketing and box art makes story/character centric games with great roleplaying abilities and the ability to play as either gender look like generic shooter/hack n slash with a generic dudebro.

 

All fair points... but I don't think putting a generic dudeBRA on the cover of a generic shooter/hack n slash box is the answer.

Bioware needs to market their ability to choose. Not market a set protagonist of a different gender. They just need to figure out an effective way to do that.

[Brass_Buckles]

All fair points... but I don't think putting a generic dudeBRA on the cover of a generic shooter/hack n slash box is the answer.

Bioware needs to market their ability to choose. Not market a set protagonist of a different gender. They just need to figure out an effective way to do that.

 

See my previous comment about box art with the different genders on either side and all races on each side, plus the different classes also depicted, and everyone with different skin tones etc.  Just wildly different but all well-designed characters.  Bonus points if the box art is actual in-game character art, though it may be difficult to make that as appealing as a painting due to the uncanny valley effect.

[Fast Jimmy]

See my previous comment about box art with the different genders on either side and all races on each side, plus the different classes also depicted, and everyone with different skin tones etc.  Just wildly different but all well-designed characters.  Bonus points if the box art is actual in-game character art, though it may be difficult to make that as appealing as a painting due to the uncanny valley effect.

 

Eh. Maybe. Although, to me, this is just marketing a dozen set protagonists equally, instead of just one. Not to mention people may assume those people on the box will be in the game as individual characters, not just "here's how you can look if you fiddle with the character creator."

 

Also, console copies don't have boxes. The case is the only thing sold, and the side that doesn't open is already jam packed with text and coproate logos. You'd get, at best, just one side to do said pictures on.

I could see doing what you are talking about with a trailer, perhaps. But on the box art, I think the real estate is too limited. I'd say just put a simple white background and the Inquisitor's helmet - nothing more. Similar to what was done with DA:O's art, except a helmet instead of a blood splatter.

[Nefla]

All fair points... but I don't think putting a generic dudeBRA on the cover of a generic shooter/hack n slash box is the answer.

Bioware needs to market their ability to choose. Not market a set protagonist of a different gender. They just need to figure out an effective way to do that.

 

I don't think a generic "dudebra" is the answer either. I am simply tired of hamfisted marketing and box art that actively alienates women.

[GVulture]

Eh. Maybe. Although, to me, this is just marketing a dozen set protagonists equally, instead of just one. Not to mention people may assume those people on the box will be in the game as individual characters, not just "here's how you can look if you fiddle with the character creator."

 

Also, console copies don't have boxes. The case is the only thing sold, and the side that doesn't open is already jam packed with text and coproate logos. You'd get, at best, just one side to do said pictures on.

I could see doing what you are talking about with a trailer, perhaps. But on the box art, I think the real estate is too limited. I'd say just put a simple white background and the Inquisitor's helmet - nothing more. Similar to what was done with DA:O's art, except a helmet instead of a blood splatter.

Obisidian/Lucasarts managed to highlight the male/female aspect of the Exile in their marketing material for Sith Lords and if they can do it ten plus years ago there is NO excuse not to do it now.

 

Going with a generic Dudebro is just lazy and unimaginative advertising. A lazily written and unimaginative developer just tries to squeak a game by guess what happens? They don't get distributed or they don't sell etc, etc. If all the marketing department can come up with is a white cishet dudebro for a game's advertising and they justify it with, "IT SELLS!"... it's time to hire new people. ((And of course "it sells", it's the ONLY thing video game marketing ever does! So of course "it sells" because when all your AAA titles and big budget games all look the same cover wise...))

[Fast Jimmy]

I don't think a generic "dudebra" is the answer either. I am simply tired of hamfisted marketing and box art that actively alienates women.

 

Personally, I could care less about the box art. In this day and age, I feel the vast majority of the marketing legwork is done via videos, trailers and commercials (if applicable). That's where I think they should maintain the ambiguity - across gender, class AND race. And they seemed to have done this so far, barring the voiceover by the male PC in the most recent trailer. 

[syllogi]

How is that not a default/canon/set-protagonist-for-the-purposes-of-marketing-and-marketing-purposes-alone, though? 

 

Remember when Mike Laidlaw did a livestream showing gameplay of DA2 (I believe he was showing off the High Dragon fight) before the game came out, and he used F!Hawke for that?  That was a nice thing, although we were still getting Default Garrett in most of the marketing.  The sky didn't fall because he threw us fans who asked for something like this a bone.

 

And when DA:O had posters with female versions of the Warden, as well as class trailers that had a diverse range of male and female Wardens of different races, nobody was confused or worried.  I'm not sure why it wouldn't be possible again.

[Bekkael]

Personally, I could care less about the box art. In this day and age, I feel the vast majority of the marketing legwork is done via videos, trailers and commercials (if applicable). That's where I think they should maintain the ambiguity - across gender, class AND race. And they seemed to have done this so far, barring the voiceover by the male PC in the most recent trailer. 

 

I'm actually far less interested in the box art than I am some equal representation of gameplay, at this point. If I were the casual observer, I would assume it's only possible to play as a human male warrior in DAI, based just on the (multiple) videos released thus far.

 

Most people ar not uber-nerds and won't put a lot of time into researching a game, but just look at couple of trailers to make their decision, if even that much.