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[Bob from Accounting]

Huh.

 

Dunno if this has been brought up, but I tend to think that if and when girls are insulted or whatever for playing video games, (which is something I've never seen), it would be because the boys who play them feel like they're getting 'pity attention' with the implication that they couldn't hold the interest of a girl otherwise. And resent what they see as being looked down upon.

 

I would imagine that to be reason behind 'Fake Gamer Girl' stuff. Not any notion of games being an 'Old Boys Club.'

[XxPrincess(x)ThreatxX]

Huh.
 
Dunno if this has been brought up, but I tend to think that if and when girls are insulted or whatever for playing video games, (which is something I've never seen), it would be because the boys who play them feel like they're getting 'pity attention' with the implication that they couldn't hold the interest of a girl otherwise. And resent what they see as being looked down upon.
 
I would imagine that to be reason behind 'Fake Gamer Girl' stuff. Not any notion of games being an 'Old Boys Club.'

I know from personal experience that there are boys that very much do see gaming as a "old boys club" especially when it comes to online games & don't tolerate girls openly playing with them, usually directing sexist & nasty comments or worse abuse sometimes if a woman dares to make herself known to them during gameplay.

[HuldraDancer]

Bob from Accounting could you please explain what you mean by 'pity attention'? I usually have people come to me when its about games I don't go out seeking attention for being female and a gamer the only times I do anything remotely like that is when I hear someone talking about a game I also enjoy and I already know the person other than that I keep my gaming to myself most of the time but I still harassed quite a bit (mostly from family sadly) about games.

[Allan Schumacher]

Huh.

 

Dunno if this has been brought up, but I tend to think that if and when girls are insulted or whatever for playing video games, (which is something I've never seen), it would be because the boys who play them feel like they're getting 'pity attention' with the implication that they couldn't hold the interest of a girl otherwise. And resent what they see as being looked down upon.

 

I would imagine that to be reason behind 'Fake Gamer Girl' stuff. Not any notion of games being an 'Old Boys Club.'

 

 

There will be men that go "HOLY GRAIL OF WOMEN" and treat the woman as a goddess because she's a girl and a gamer.  They just want to shower that woman with affection and attention because they're so special.

 

You'll get people that dislike the idea because it's women bringing "women things" into gaming, or being dismissive because "you're a girl you likely wouldn't understand this thing."

 

In both cases it's uncomfortable treatment based purely on the fact that someone is a woman.  "Woman" becomes the defining trait that people see, not "person" or "gamer" or something like that.  Both provide fuel for vindictive perspectives too.  "How dare she not appreciate my attention?  I would love for someone to give me that type of attention" or "How dare she encroach on my space and seek to change the things about games that I like!"

 

 

 

And yes, you'll get some that feel that "Fake Gamer Girl" perception where they take the idea that women don't really like games, but feign an interest because it'll get men to do stuff for them.  In essence, taking advantage of the men that see them as holy grails of potential girlfriends.

[Bob from Accounting]

That's certainly true. It does, for whatever reason, come down to ugly behavior on basis of being a woman.

[Stelae]

I could rant for like ten years about that. Or longer.

Come sit by me.

 

(With apologies to Dorothy Parker)

[Eralrik]

When I played Dark Age of Camelot I was pretty naïve because I thought those female characters were actually woman playing as I played with my wife. I had an instance where this female Paladin was hitting on me in game talking just like this waitress at the local diner I used to go to for breakfast, it wasn't until we got on Roger Wilco that this cute Paladin turned into a cigar chomping deep voiced male Garbage truck driver that's when my eye's opened wide and realized where are the real woman.

Found out some play male characters to avoid being hit on in games.

 

Me I've always respected having lady's at the gaming table they always bring something new to the table and can be a lot of fun and I'm probably one of those guys that treat lady's like a Goddess of gaming.

[Bob from Accounting]

Bob from Accounting could you please explain what you mean by 'pity attention'? I usually have people come to me when its about games I don't go out seeking attention for being female and a gamer the only times I do anything remotely like that is when I hear someone talking about a game I also enjoy and I already know the person other than that I keep my gaming to myself most of the time but I still harassed quite a bit (mostly from family sadly) about games.

 

If a pretty girl sat down at a table full of single, young male 'geeks,' so to speak, I'm pretty sure they would assume she's there more-or-less there out of pity.

 

This is kind of delicate. Because 99% of the time, I would bet the girl is simply geniuinely trying to be nice and friendly to people. But for the 'geeks,' I think it would be percieved as something different.

 

Much as I hate to say it...the stereotype is probably at least somewhat true. That male 'geeks' or 'nerds' or whatever are shy and awkward around girls and tend to be somewhat insecure in general. At least when they're younger.

[Allan Schumacher]

Much as I hate to say it...the stereotype is probably at least somewhat true. That male 'geeks' or 'nerds' or whatever are shy and awkward around girls and tend to be somewhat insecure in general.

 

I think this is influenced by how we apply labels.  I identify much more as "geek" instead of, say, "athlete."  But in high school, most people that only knew me superficially knew me as the guy that loved basketball.

 

I still remember when my Grade 11 team got together to play GoldenEye and I would win games 20/2/3/2 and then came the handicaps (I'd still win ).  People were floored at my gaming proficiency.  Then I'd win Skills Canada awards for computers and people were "Wha!?"

 

To anyone that knew me though?  I was a geek with a computer, N64, PSX, and subscriptions to PC Gamer, Ultragameplayers, and Next Generation magazines.  (And SLAM magazine... lol)

[HuldraDancer]

If a pretty girl sat down at a table full of single, young male 'geeks,' so to speak, I'm pretty sure they would assume she's there more-or-less there out of pity.

 

This is kind of delicate. Because 99% of the time, I would bet the girl is simply geniuinely trying to be nice and friendly to people. But for the 'geeks,' I think it would be percieved as something different.

 

Much as I hate to say it...the stereotype is probably at least somewhat true. That male 'geeks' or 'nerds' or whatever are shy and awkward around girls and tend to be somewhat insecure in general. At least when they're younger.

 

See I've never had it interpreted as 'pity attention' before where I grew up women who were into gaming where called 'attention wh*res' who couldn't cut it with the 'popular kids' so they settled for the 'geeks' as a means to get attention. Thank you for clearing up what you meant to me since as I've said it was treated with much more venom where I was from.

[Mes]

If a pretty girl sat down at a table full of single, young male 'geeks,' so to speak, I'm pretty sure they would assume she's there more-or-less there out of pity.

 

 

Lol. That's pretty sad, if true.

 

I'm willing to bet that if a girl ("pretty" or otherwise) sits down at a table full of gamer guys, she's probably just doing it because... well... because she's a human being who is interested in gaming and wants to talk to like-minded people about her interests?

 

Not everything women do or don't do revolve around men.

 

There will be men that go "HOLY GRAIL OF WOMEN" and treat the woman as a goddess because she's a girl and a gamer.  They just want to shower that woman with affection and attention because they're so special.

 

You'll get people that dislike the idea because it's women bringing "women things" into gaming, or being dismissive because "you're a girl you likely wouldn't understand this thing."

 

In both cases it's uncomfortable treatment based purely on the fact that someone is a woman.  "Woman" becomes the defining trait that people see, not "person" or "gamer" or something like that.  Both provide fuel for vindictive perspectives too.  "How dare she not appreciate my attention?  I would love for someone to give me that type of attention" or "How dare she encroach on my space and seek to change the things about games that I like!"

 

 

 

And yes, you'll get some that feel that "Fake Gamer Girl" perception where they take the idea that women don't really like games, but feign an interest because it'll get men to do stuff for them.  In essence, taking advantage of the men that see them as holy grails of potential girlfriends.

 

I get that "omg you're a girl gamer, let's get married!!?!11!" reaction often in real life. I think it's meant to be sweet but it's just kind of depressing. Highlights how many people still assume that women don't play games in the first place.

[Stelae]

Huh.

 

Dunno if this has been brought up, but I tend to think that if and when girls are insulted or whatever for playing video games, (which is something I've never seen), it would be because the boys who play them feel like they're getting 'pity attention' with the implication that they couldn't hold the interest of a girl otherwise. And resent what they see as being looked down upon.

 

I would imagine that to be reason behind 'Fake Gamer Girl' stuff. Not any notion of games being an 'Old Boys Club.'

 

I think that is just an excuse for misogynist behaviour. 

 

Every woman who games that I know has experienced insults, gotten kicked from pickups despite being an asskickingly good player in at least one case(or at least, as good as anyone else in the team in others), and been told the Sandwich and Period "jokes." For the sad little man-children who do it, it's a way of trying to establish and reinforce the Maleness of a space as an exercise in power.  Some men (well, we'll call them men ... )simply enjoy bullying--it makes them feel powerful--and anything female is perceived as a valid target.  And the added advantage of there being no real consequences when you do it online, and the complicity of all the men who don't call out such behaviour when they see it, make them feel safe to be douches. 

 

Also, they feel that being bettered (either defeated, or shown up by a better player) by a girl is shameful in a way that being bettered by a boy is not. 

 

The "Fake Geek Girl" is a pretty hilarious idea, really.  It's an extension of the idea that anything a woman does, it's actually for a man.  And don't give me the "waaaah, low self esteem ... " cliche; the whole idea of the Fake Geek Girl is that Geeks are actually so attractive and desirable that a girl will go against her natural inclinations (er, makeup and shopping?  Wearing gingham and baking cakes?  IDK; what do these men think Real Women ™ do, anyhow? ) to be around them.  The idea that women will fundamentally change themselves just to be in the same room as you shows a massive ego, if you ask me. 

 

"You can't possibly actually be interested in D&D3.5 or discussing the relative merits of warp and hyperspace travel; clearly you are only interested in getting attention from ME." 

 

Really?  Do you have a separate suitcase to cart your ego around in? 

 

Of course, if I ever said that out loud, and I wouldn't, I'd be accused of being a castrating b-word.  Possibly fairly. But give me a break, all the same ...

[Eveangaline]

If a pretty girl sat down at a table full of single, young male 'geeks,' so to speak, I'm pretty sure they would assume she's there more-or-less there out of pity.

 

This is kind of delicate. Because 99% of the time, I would bet the girl is simply geniuinely trying to be nice and friendly to people. But for the 'geeks,' I think it would be percieved as something different.

 

Much as I hate to say it...the stereotype is probably at least somewhat true. That male 'geeks' or 'nerds' or whatever are shy and awkward around girls and tend to be somewhat insecure in general. At least when they're younger.

 

Except that it's not really just 'pretty' girls that get this treatment. It's the bookish big glasses socially awkward girls that fall into every nerd stereotype as much as the boys.

[Gileadan]

Heh, this thread has taken an interesting turn.

 

When I started gaming back in the 80s, pretty much everyone who wasn't a gamer themselves made fun of gamers. It was a "weird" hobby, misunderstood and thought of as being suitable only for people who were a bit out of touch with reality and probably had no "real life" to begin with. If you admitted to being a gamer, you never got into the "cool" boy clubs, and your chances for getting a date with any girl were, well, let's just say "not so good". Those few gamers who I knew back then all considered themselves as some kind of "sworn brotherhood", because literally everyone else thought of them as weirdos.

 

Years passed, times changed, stuff happened and the general image of gamers changed from "geek who lives in a dream world (but could potentially fix your computer)" to "possibly dangerous recluse (who still might fix your computer)". Games made people violent, everyone knew that. What, you had Counter-Strike installed on your PC? Might as well tell the police to watch you. Gamers still had that brotherhood feeling. Not as much as before, we had grown up a bit after all, gotten jobs and all that. But we still got frowns and weird looks for our hobby.

 

And finally things got better. A few more years passed, and suddenly gaming was actually a cool hobby. People would not judge you for gaming and it was no longer a boy's club, women were gaming too. I actually look back fondly to all this today.

 

Now why did I bore you with all this? I mean to say that gamers should never belittle other gamers for whatever reason, be it gender, gaming preferences or whatever. It took us a while to make gaming a much more accepted hobby than it was back then - it's certainly not perfect, but it's gotten better. Just because there's way less non-gamers giving us the frowns these days doesn't mean we should continue where they left off. 

 

And now excuse me for one last round of Battlefield to get back to my old dudebro self.  

[In Exile]

Heh, this thread has taken an interesting turn.

 

When I started gaming back in the 80s, pretty much everyone who wasn't a gamer themselves made fun of gamers. It was a "weird" hobby, misunderstood and thought of as being suitable only for people who were a bit out of touch with reality and probably had no "real life" to begin with. If you admitted to being a gamer, you never got into the "cool" boy clubs, and your chances for getting a date with any girl were, well, let's just say "not so good". Those few gamers who I knew back then all considered themselves as some kind of "sworn brotherhood", because literally everyone else thought of them as weirdos.

 

Years passed, times changed, stuff happened and the general image of gamers changed from "geek who lives in a dream world (but could potentially fix your computer)" to "possibly dangerous recluse (who still might fix your computer)". Games made people violent, everyone knew that. What, you had Counter-Strike installed on your PC? Might as well tell the police to watch you. Gamers still had that brotherhood feeling. Not as much as before, we had grown up a bit after all, gotten jobs and all that. But we still got frowns and weird looks for our hobby.

 

And finally things got better. A few more years passed, and suddenly gaming was actually a cool hobby. People would not judge you for gaming and it was no longer a boy's club, women were gaming too. I actually look back fondly to all this today.

 

Now why did I bore you with all this? I mean to say that gamers should never belittle other gamers for whatever reason, be it gender, gaming preferences or whatever. It took us a while to make gaming a much more accepted hobby than it was back then - it's certainly not perfect, but it's gotten better. Just because there's way less non-gamers giving us the frowns these days doesn't mean we should continue where they left off. 

 

And now excuse me for one last round of Battlefield to get back to my old dudebro self.  

 

Gaming is a cool hobby... in some circles. In my line of work, gaming is not an acceptable hobby. 

[Allan Schumacher]

Gaming is a cool hobby... in some circles. In my line of work, gaming is not an acceptable hobby. 

 

I'd be lying if I said I didn't appreciate that my job affords me a large amount of assurances that no one will judge me for my gaming

 

(It's not a coincidence that most people in high school knew me as "Basketball guy" instead of "Gamer guy" either)

[Kaiser Wilhelm]

 

 

"You can't possibly actually be interested in D&D3.5 or discussing the relative merits of warp and hyperspace travel; clearly you are only interested in getting attention from ME." 

 

Really?  Do you have a separate suitcase to cart your ego around in? 

 

Of course, if I ever said that out loud, and I wouldn't, I'd be accused of being a castrating b-word.  Possibly fairly. But give me a break, all the same ...

Yes, because I'm such hot sh** that there's no way you could be here for the fantasy world I find so engaging.  

 

This is definitely about power and station.  These ... male ... people... have carved out some niche, and, no matter how small or pathetic, they will defend it viciously.  I suppose it's a sort of, "'Better to reign in Hell, than serve in Heaven" sort of self-assurance, and perhaps it's equally self-deluding.  Misogyny is just another source of power and station: "I'm above you, at least."  I know it's old-fashioned, but, like The Internationale implies, I believe such divisions only serve the forces of capitalist oppression, the "human sultans, human elite with no right at all to be where they are."  But, yeah, this is about power and aggression.  For particular insight into these social dynamics (in baboons, but it's really not that far off), check out Robert Sapolsky's A Primate's Memoir.  One of the only ways to end the defensive and reactionary behavior of male gamers, gamers seeking to defend their undeserved privilege, is for companies like BioWare to more explicitly make clear that these games are not just for the boys.

Modifié par Kaiser Wilhelm, 22 mai 2014 - 11:52 .

[Nefla]

Who out there would rather watch "you've got mail" than "The Avengers?" My mom. My mom thinks Avengers stupid move for kids and video game to."You grown up and still play games"

 

Pretty sure that's either an individual taste thing or a generational thing. My dad feels the same way as your mom "games are for kids" and  "superhero movies are stupid cartoon movies for kids." Yet my mom loves super hero movies and so do I

 

I usually get this whenever i buy games from any store that isn't my local game store, stupid remarks & weird looks especially from male cashiers who can't fathom that im getting games for myself & not for a boyfriend/brother or any other male friend/relative

That's why I stopped shopping at gamestop altogether. I would always get incredulous stares, get talked down to, and treated like an idiot. (of course they also assumed it couldn't POSSIBLY be for me rather than a male relative) I now buy my games from the grocery store (Fred Meyer/Walmart) or through origin/steam/gamefly/etc...

 

Yep. I had to for the longest time play only harvest moon and animal crossing games (which I do enjoy so lucky break there) in my aunts house since 'little girls don't like games' So unless it was something like Mario golf or harvest moon I couldn't play it, it was given to my male cousin. Heck I still have to practically apologize to the cashier for making them (there's always a male cashier when I go in too) help a woman before they take what I say seriously and I have to label myself as 'not a real gamer' to appease them before they pick their jaw off the ground and help me pick out a game or answer a question 

That's horrible and you shouldn't berate yourself to them. If they want to be an ass then it's their shortcoming.

 

Perhaps part of the problem is drawing conclusions from your own experiences and assuming they reflect reality? (This is a human flaw that we all have, including myself).

 

I'm saying that even if Twilight is made for teen girls, it doesn't reflect that only teen girls enjoy it (they don't), nor does it mean that a teen girl cannot enjoy it.  I'd argue it positions to a very specific type of demographic, but even within that demographic generalizations still fall apart.  For instance, teen girls that like it because they think it's an idealized romance story for women, versus teen girls that like it because they find angsty romance a hilarious form of escapist entertainment.

 

I can't say if it is or is not "the majority."  A lot of teen girls love Harry Potter too (as do teen boys, and adult men and women... and so forth).

 Very true. My best friend who has always been super practical and not interested in romance stuff really liked Twilight and after seeing it I hated it and asked her what she saw in it? She went into this excited spiel about the different powers all the vampires had in the books and how the battles were so cool. She didn't care one bit about the "female" draw which was the creepy "romance."

[Kaiser Wilhelm]

Come sit by me.

 

(With apologies to Dorothy Parker)

I thought it was Alice Roosevelt who said, "If you can't say anything good about someone, sit right here by me."

[In Exile]

I'd be lying if I said I didn't appreciate that my job affords me a large amount of assurances that no one will judge me for my gaming

 

(It's not a coincidence that most people in high school knew me as "Basketball guy" instead of "Gamer guy" either)

 

The number of job interviews I had to go down to my C-List of hobbies is pretty numerous. 

[HuldraDancer]

That's horrible and you shouldn't berate yourself to them. If they want to be an ass then it's their shortcoming.

 

 

Thanks. I've sadly gotten used to it by now I just chalk it up to one of the many unattractive features of my near by GameStop right along with flat out lying to me about DA:I not being available on the 360 then offering me to put in an order for an Xbox One.  If I could shop other places I would but our Walmart is usually empty and online buying is a big NO in my house.

[HuldraDancer]

Double Post Sorry^^;

[Stelae]

I thought it was Alice Roosevelt who said, "If you can't say anything good about someone, sit right here by me."

You're quite right; I stand (no, I sit) corrected. 

 

That's what I get for Typing Before Coffee.

[Stelae]

I'd be lying if I said I didn't appreciate that my job affords me a large amount of assurances that no one will judge me for my gaming

 

(It's not a coincidence that most people in high school knew me as "Basketball guy" instead of "Gamer guy" either)

My GM is a banking analyst.  Poor lad.  When his boss noticed he was writing up plot points for a Pathfinder session during a meeting, he described it as being "outed" as a gamer.  Fortunately, he's proved his worth¹, but he usually waits a few months into a new job before he starts talking about his hobbies. 

 

Being a tech writer has advantages; you tend to be around gaming-tolerant people most of the time. 

 

1.  ETA: as a banking analyst.  He proved his worth as a friend and GM years ago.

[Bugsie]

If a pretty girl sat down at a table full of single, young male 'geeks,' so to speak, I'm pretty sure they would assume she's there more-or-less there out of pity.
 
This is kind of delicate. Because 99% of the time, I would bet the girl is simply geniuinely trying to be nice and friendly to people. But for the 'geeks,' I think it would be percieved as something different.
 
Much as I hate to say it...the stereotype is probably at least somewhat true. That male 'geeks' or 'nerds' or whatever are shy and awkward around girls and tend to be somewhat insecure in general. At least when they're younger.

I have a serious problem with this attitude. Male 'nerds' and 'geeks' don't get a free pass for misogynistic behaviour because of their shyness and societal persecution. Let's not forget that female geeks and nerds are just as shy and awkward, topped up with that wonderful attitude in society that their attraction to nerdy and geeky things is somehow wrong.

How about we (collectively, nerds included) treat everyone as people first? Not their gender, not their label (nerd, jock, whatever).