199 réponses à ce sujet

[Allan Schumacher]

It doesn't 'bother' me, I just think it's wrong. It goes very heavily against how I've seen people act. And it's easy to imagine how it could be skewed.

 

If it doesn't bother you, then why would you come in and try to correct people.  I'm skeptical that it's simply in the name of "making sure people have factual data" and not in any way related to what inaccurate data may lead people to be conclude.

 

Further, since you're implying that we're victims of confirmation bias, I have to ask what your justification is in thinking that the numbers are wrong beyond your own personal perceptions and that you may be rejecting the information on a confirmation bias of your own.

 

 

I have heard numbers that AAA console games tend to have a 2:1 ratio.  Is that number more palatable to your liking?

 

 

To be blunt, to me it seems like you're shifting the goalposts about what you're arguing about.

 

 

It seemed very much like you have reservations with the idea that women should be more represented:

 

"Just the arguments that women should be represented more and whatnot."

 

But now you're saying:

 

"First of all, I never said asking for more women is a bad thing. Only that care needs to be taken so that the female characters are acknowledged and respected as legitimate characters."

 

 

So you seem to be contradicting yourself.  Please clarify so I can understand what you're trying argue.

 

 

Second, please elaborate on what you mean by "acknowledged and respected as legitimate characters."  Because I'm of the impressoin that you seem to feel that that the women here don't understand what it takes to have an appropriate female character in a game.  So please, elaborate.

[Allan Schumacher]

No. I have reservations with the arguments that support the idea. Not the idea itself. I'm honest. I don't give bad arguments a pass because I'm not opposed to them.

 

Do you feel that the people in this thread that disagree with you are being dishonest?

 

 

People can be honestly wrong (or outright honestly hateful).  But I'm getting the feeling you feel that I'm not being honest in my perspectives.

[Allan Schumacher]

This tangent is now over.  Apologies everyone.

[Allan Schumacher]

Cleaned up the thread somewhat.  I'm more inclined to moving on.

[Allan Schumacher]

I didn't find the agenda particularly hidden.

[Allan Schumacher]

So if it is female you have all right how character looks. And if it offends you no women in any form of entertainment can't look sexy. What was point with my post You don't like what I like, and I don't like what you like. You forcing your opinion and I forcing my. And there is no point in this, I guess we at least agree on this. So just end this we will go nowhere.And I am not apologising for liking women even if it offends you.

 

I am getting the impression that your point in this thread is to shut people up, which is contrary to the entire point of this thread which is to get people to talk.

 

Sure it's possible that what they would like and what you would like are mutually exclusive, but don't come into a thread where they discuss what they like and tell them that it's all pointless and how they're just trying to force what they want upon you and that there's no point in discussing this.  It's not productive.

[Allan Schumacher]

I'm not sure which one of you it is (I'm assuming it is), but there was an interesting tumblr post that I saw some coworkers retweet.  The person's twitter (Ellorgast) points out the frustration that everyone jumped on other studios for lack of women, but nothing real came out of our reveal.

 

Negative news does seem to sell over positive news it seems.  And during E3 it was quite the hot topic, but how would we go about encouraging more proliferation of "this is the way we want" type of news?  I'll admit the obvious benefits BioWare would have if you went off and campaigned for more exposure for us for doing this, but at the same time in general how do we promote and encourage more positive waves (regardless of what sort of waves we happen to be casting).

[Allan Schumacher]

Then again it is kind of depressing that having a game developer not completely ignore the female pc in marketing is actually newsworthy. Really shows how far we have to go.

 

Indeed it is.  It's starting to come along though I think.

[Allan Schumacher]

Really glad i dont understand all this, i just pity the game developers who be afraid to put a bikini on a woman now for fear of being branded a sexist

 

They're free to do it.  They just have to understand the context by which they do it.  That they do it doesn't make them immune from having it critiqued (just like us not doing it doesn't make us immune either)

[Allan Schumacher]

dont understand now why im being dis-respectful tbh, i actually agree with what alan said in that they need to understand the context there doing it an be open to criticism, i just feel its getting to a stage where game developers will be paranoid to put a bikini on a woman regardless the situation unless there branded a sexist.

 

Edit: An thats no a nice place to be tbh, being scared to do your job the way you want to do it in fear of being branded, branded anything

 

When you come in and say "really glad I don't understand this" it sets a tone of your message to be "I don't know why this is a problem and I don't really care to learn" which is going to put people on the defensive right away.

 

 

To be fair, plenty of artistic choices get kyboshed because someone else somewhere says "you can't do that... that's not what the data says sells" so the being afraid to do their job the way they want works both ways.

[Allan Schumacher]

Tangentially related, but I enjoyed this brief description of cultures and gender roles from the setting of Obsidian's Pillar's of Eternity.  Josh Sawyer is the lead designer for it (a very kind man who took some time out of his day to hang with me for an hour or so when I was on a holiday in LA).  He has a tumblr that he uses to answer questions.

 

Link

[Allan Schumacher]

I think that is a very good way of putting it . It seems like the internet as a whole, gaming journalist (largely) included, don't want to let Mass Effect 3 go...or even Dragon Age 2...even though a lot of sites gave that game a pretty darn high score on its release. Its vaguely exhausting as a fan, which really makes me feel bad for the devs who are so clearly working so passionately on this AMAZING looking new game.

 

I think it's also our bias to focus on the negative.  That stuff sticks out more, but I see enthusiasm and whatnot out and about beyond our forums too.  We *were* well received at E3 (much more so than we expected).

[Allan Schumacher]

I'm really glad to hear that then! I suppose the true press coverage will be ramping up too in the coming weeks/month and we will start to see journalist truly geeking out over the game. (I am very much looking forward to those articles)

 

According to Liz, there were some journalists that missed their next stop because they lost track of time.  Which is a good problem to have I think (for us anyways... haha)

[Allan Schumacher]

Just some context regarding Pillars of Eternity (since I am ridiculously looking forward to it)

 

It's an original setting made by a group of developers that have a lineage going back to Black Isle Studios (who worked with BioWare by publishing Baldurs Gate), that have a soft spot for the old school style of gaming such as that has strong characters IMO.

 

But just to clarify, it's not based on another setting.  I just came across a tweet to that tumblr post and the team has been pretty responsive to initial criticisms of some early armor designs (first iteration of a companion still had some boob plate that they removed pretty quickly) and some of their early concept art included some interesting character designs and did include a woman of colour to boot.  Josh is also a believer in allowing players the flexibility to create the types of characters that they want.

 

Spoiler

 

 

I don't follow the information tooooooooooo closely (I've already decided I'm getting the game, so I mostly have blacked myself out of it) but I'm hoping they are able to help contribute in a positive way as well.  I'm also totally plugging them because I'm a fanboy XD.  But I'll give my thoughts on it once it's released (later this year) if people are interested.

 

 

I'd prefer this to stay more focused on DAI, but if people have other examples of things they think seem interesting, or other positive moments, I think it's okay to mention it to bring awareness of things people want to call out.

 

 

I had a talk with a friend of mine today about Divinity: Original Sin, and their first shot of their woman protagonist was bikini clad.  He was a bit miffed that that's where they started, but to their credit (IMO) they switched it up which I think is good for a couple of reasons:

1. It means people are saying "you shouldn't do this"
2. It means they are taking the feedback to heart

I can't speak for the rest of the game as I haven't played it, but I do appreciate the take away message from something like that.  You can see a before and after shot here:

 

Spoiler

 

I don't know the context of why they are holding hands, but the character creation has the player create two characters (customizing appearance I believe) so I imagine that the characters are linked in some way.

 

I may pick it up and if so, I'll share thoughts.

 

 

But yes, enough off topic for me I think <.<

 

 

Cheers.

[Allan Schumacher]

I enjoyed Shadowrun Returns.  Was a fun little romp (Dragonfall DLC is a bit tighter of an experience I found - like they had learned their lessons and didn't have to build an engine at the same time )

[Allan Schumacher]

hmmm, in your words Allan does that mean the 4th DA could actually be even more of an improvement than Inquisition.

 

I wouldn't mind if we stuck with Frostbite for at least one more game

 

(Though I expect to shuffle around to some other projects anyways so I don't even know how things end up falling after we ship)

[Allan Schumacher]

So what is the point of discussion. If no one say opposite opinion. Everyone just agree. It's not discussion its different people just repeating same opinion. And you gave great exemplar about Divinity Original sin, armour was change because some people didn't like design, what about people who liked it? Developers was forced to change it because some one didn't like it And from posts I read I get impression what every one who is warrior must be put in armour from toe to head or neck (To see character face is more important the realism). I see post and just express my different opinion. 

What would happen if someone created post asking more reviling/sexy armour,would people nicely express different opinion, person most likely would be just flamen and topic locked. Topic was created to ask more feminine armour, pure girl was just flamed as hell. And I don't say to shut up to anyone, everyone have right to say what they want. But don't act surprised if someone wants, exactly opposite you want.

 

What do you mean "If no one says opposite opinion?"  Is your opinion "Could we please see less of the Lady Inquisitor?"  Are you hear to speak up on behalf of the poor people that just need to have sexualized women in their games?

 

Coming in and telling people that it's pointless because other people want the opposite is an implicit "stop talking."  Although IMO it may mean "we need to make sure we keep getting heard."

 

On a personal level, not all "opposite perspectives" are valid ones.  For example, I wouldn't entertain someone who decided to come into a thread about slavery to talk about how it's a wonderful thing.  If someone wants exactly the opposite, I'd be curious as to the specifics as to why:  because I'm of the opinion it has a dubious foundation.

 

 

If you want to discuss why it's good to have less women in games give it a try, but there's a good chance you're not going to come across as respectful in doing so, because in many ways it's not a respectful position to have.

[Allan Schumacher]

I don't understand why you puling word from my mouth, I didn't say. I was referring not to original topic, but to post witch says armour design must be changed because it offends what person. So i guess I am at fault from going off topic?

 

So a person shouldn't say they don't like an armor design?

And on sexualization. Personally, I don't play games to worry about whether people are being portrayed in a properly 3 dimensional fashion, just as I don't attend a meeting at work and expect the people in the room be dressed half naked. It feels like on video games forum we talking about real life and not video games.

 

If you don't worry about it, is it safe to say you wouldn't care if it was changed then?

[Allan Schumacher]

Well since there seems to be jokes about this stuff, just in case:

 

If someone feels that people can't say "I don't like that art design" they probably shouldn't bother with the thread.

[Allan Schumacher]

Biowares own statement of wanting the CoD demographic dictates otherwise. But I'm sure those DA2 sales won't have any related impact to DA:I. 

 

The CoD crowd (aside: there are women that play the game) was more an examination that due to the RPG aspects of those types of games (the feedback loop of gaining XP and acquiring skills, improved weapons, and whatnot), there's possibly more overlap there than otherwise.

 

As a gamer, my tastes are pretty diverse too.  I like playing pretty much any genre of gaming, but when a game adds "RPG elements" I typically consider it a positive.

 

One of my favourite games is Deus Ex (the original, and Human Revolution) which is an interesting exploration combining traditional RPG and FPS elements.  System Shock 2 is also one of my favourite games.

[Allan Schumacher]

Overlap yes. I'm sure you're more than familiar with the criticisms of ME3 when it comes to the actual gameplay. 

 

I am.  Not sure how this is relevant, however.

 

I play FPS games because I find them fun - though often I don't find the gameplay to actually be all that complex.  But that's okay a game doesn't have to be super complex to be fun... sometimes it's just about shooting that helicopter with your tank's main gun while your friend in the secondary gunner spot takes out the guy trying to C4 your tank.  I play RPGs because I find them fun too.  It's why I play any game.

 

Is everyone in the "CoD crowd" going to want to play our game?  Probably not.  But I'd be surprised if some wouldn't enjoy it.  I had a coworker that picked up KOTOR because he had just finished Jedi Knight II and wanted more of the same.  He ended up getting something he liked even better.  Sometimes stuff like that happens.

[Allan Schumacher]

The FB comments on the escapist article are more encouraging today, IMO

[Allan Schumacher]

They didn't have any plans for a separate release last time somebody asked (during the Raptr Q&A, I think) but I'm hoping the sad panda faces we keep making at them might sway somebody. Assuming, of course, that anyone has time to make it run on its own. I have no idea who would be responsible or what else they might be doing at the moment. I loved playing with the Character Creator before DAO and would love to see it again, though, if only so I could get my dwarf right before installing and not have to spend my first three hours with the game fiddling with eyebrow sliders.

 

Failing that, a Character Creation trailer showing all the options would be fabulous.

 

It can actually be a good chunk of work to separate something like that out in a clean way sometimes, unfortunately.

 

I wouldn't expect it.  I'm pretty sure it'd not really be worth the effort, unfortunately :\

[Allan Schumacher]

Thanks for the answer.

 

I did kind of think this would be the case but it's good to know. Any chance of a trailer or demo of the character creator then, if you know/can answer? 

 

I know Mike would like to show it off for sure.  I can't say if it will or will not happen unfortunately, but I think it's a pretty big "beat" for our games and why people like playing them, especially with player races returning.

[Allan Schumacher]

I think that even if the numbers is 1 in 5, that's still not trivial and it doesn't take into account other aspects about the demographic breakdown in terms of whether or not it helps in other ways (more people being excited and passionate in general).