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[Fast Jimmy]

Obisidian/Lucasarts managed to highlight the male/female aspect of the Exile in their marketing material for Sith Lords and if they can do it ten plus years ago there is NO excuse not to do it now.

 

Anything else from marketing "experts" is them being lazy and unimaginative. A lazily written and unimaginative developer just tries to squeak a game by guess what happens? They don't get distributed or they don't sell etc, etc. If all the marketing department can come up with is a white cishet dudebro for a game's advertising... it's time to hire new people.

 

Sure there is. This very discussion is a PERFECT excuse to not do that.

 

Because today, we'll get discussions about box art that mentions male and female characters equally. Then there will be requests for all ethnicities to appear on there as well, since only white protagonists have been on the cover before. Then all classes should be reflected equally, all fantasy races, all variations of classes (rogues aren't just dual wielders, they are archers too), etc., etc.

 

It gets to the point where, by trying to appeal to everyone who could conceivably buy your game, you simply go through an exhaustive checklist of demographics to include, just in case you missed someone.

 

 

To me, personally, that just sounds insulting. Maybe not as insulting as always putting a white dudebro on the cover, I'll grant. But still - to reduce ethnicity/gender/what-have-you as a marketing "To Do" list to make sure someone is lined up on the box art demeans the point.

 

Again, I'd rather Bioware keep it ambiguous for a large number of reasons. And find a way to market the ability to choose - not place any pre-rendered appearances in the materials at all. It promotes one of the biggest aspects of the game and it keeps such issues from people being offended or neglected. Otherwise, you will always leave someone out or reduce everyone to a box to be checked off.

[GVulture]

Remember when Mike Laidlaw did a livestream showing gameplay of DA2 (I believe he was showing off the High Dragon fight) before the game came out, and he used F!Hawke for that?  That was a nice thing, although we were still getting Default Garrett in most of the marketing.  The sky didn't fall because he threw us fans who asked for something like this a bone.

 

And when DA:O had posters with female versions of the Warden, as well as class trailers that had a diverse range of male and female Wardens of different races, nobody was confused or worried.  I'm not sure why it wouldn't be possible again.

Something I never understood was that some of the trailers for Dragon Age II highlighted the whole "Choose your destiny!' aspect and showed off the mage, warrior, and rogue class options but never once mentioned you could be female...

[GVulture]

Sure there is. This very discussion is a PERFECT excuse to not do that.

 

Because today, we'll get discussions about box art that mentions male and female characters equally. Then there will be requests for all ethnicities to appear on there as well, since only white protagonists have been on the cover before. Then all classes should be reflected equally, all fantasy races, all variations of classes (rogues aren't just dual wielders, they are archers too), etc., etc.

 

It gets to the point where, by trying to appeal to everyone who could conceivably buy your game, you simply go through an exhaustive checklist of demographics to include, just in case you missed someone.

 

 

To me, personally, that just sounds insulting. Maybe not as insulting as always putting a white dudebro on the cover, I'll grant. But still - to reduce ethnicity/gender/what-have-you as a marketing "To Do" list to make sure someone is lined up on the box art demeans the point.

 

Again, I'd rather Bioware keep it ambiguous for a large number of reasons. And find a way to market the ability to choose - not place any pre-rendered appearances in the materials at all. It promotes one of the biggest aspects of the game and it keeps such issues from people being offended or neglected. Otherwise, you will always leave someone out or reduce everyone to a box to be checked off.

I am all for the ambiguous and androgynous hero on the cover. But if I think if you are going to choose an "iconic" hero for your marketing and it is a game where CC is a big draw... there needs to be advertising reflecting that. Either on the cover as a blurb or making it a big focus of the advertising because there are still people TO THIS DAY that don't know that FemShep exists and that's a problem. There is ONE thing on the official Dragon Age II site with LadyHawke and that's a tiny screenshot buried in the galleries. That is the problem.

[Brass_Buckles]

Eh. Maybe. Although, to me, this is just marketing a dozen set protagonists equally, instead of just one. Not to mention people may assume those people on the box will be in the game as individual characters, not just "here's how you can look if you fiddle with the character creator."

 

Also, console copies don't have boxes. The case is the only thing sold, and the side that doesn't open is already jam packed with text and coproate logos. You'd get, at best, just one side to do said pictures on.

I could see doing what you are talking about with a trailer, perhaps. But on the box art, I think the real estate is too limited. I'd say just put a simple white background and the Inquisitor's helmet - nothing more. Similar to what was done with DA:O's art, except a helmet instead of a blood splatter.

 

What exactly do you want, then?  You want to depict that players have a choice in gender, in race, in class, in skin tone--how else are you going to show that, without showing a group of potential protagonists?

 

We could do the alternate route of several different box arts--but that's expensive, since it requires separate printings.  Posters would be easier to do that with, but still not cheap.

 

And yes, I know that box art isn't the main source of info these days.  I find out most of what I know about games online, for that matter.  But the box art does still matter, for those who aren't watching a specific genre, or a specific game.  A lot of times you might miss out on a game that's outside of your normal radar.  You go into the game store, and lo and behold, there are these boxes and cases and hey that one looks interesting... And you pick it up and you read the back and then maybe you think about buying it.

 

I'm just making a suggestion on how marketing could be more inclusive, at least in terms of the box art.  Do I have to come up with an entire marketing campaign to satisfy you?  If you have a better notion, then by all means share it.

 

I am fond of the Inquisitor helmet and ring, myself, but despite being great designs, they reveal precisely nothing about the game or its gameplay or the choices we can make within the game.  The art, the trailer, etc. need to have character--not necessarily *A* character, but you get my meaning.  And if we're going to promote choice and diversity, we need to display that somehow.  How will you do that without showing a variety of characters in a variety of genders and races and classes and skin tones?

[Bekkael]

Sure there is. This very discussion is a PERFECT excuse to not do that.

 

Because today, we'll get discussions about box art that mentions male and female characters equally. Then there will be requests for all ethnicities to appear on there as well, since only white protagonists have been on the cover before. Then all classes should be reflected equally, all fantasy races, all variations of classes (rogues aren't just dual wielders, they are archers too), etc., etc.

 

It gets to the point where, by trying to appeal to everyone who could conceivably buy your game, you simply go through an exhaustive checklist of demographics to include, just in case you missed someone.

 

 

To me, personally, that just sounds insulting. Maybe not as insulting as always putting a white dudebro on the cover, I'll grant. But still - to reduce ethnicity/gender/what-have-you as a marketing "To Do" list to make sure someone is lined up on the box art demeans the point.

 

Again, I'd rather Bioware keep it ambiguous for a large number of reasons. And find a way to market the ability to choose - not place any pre-rendered appearances in the materials at all. It promotes one of the biggest aspects of the game and it keeps such issues from people being offended or neglected. Otherwise, you will always leave someone out or reduce everyone to a box to be checked off.

 

That's ridiculous. All I hear the other ladies asking for, and what I'm asking for is that they please show us some female PC shreenshots/vids or whatever sometime in the future. What I hear you saying is that it's silly, and if they give us that, we will demand lots of unreasonable things. That's not what you are saying, is it? Do we ladies not merit some inclusion and acknowledgement in this show and tell phase that DAI is currently in?   

[Fast Jimmy]

What exactly do you want, then?  You want to depict that players have a choice in gender, in race, in class, in skin tone--how else are you going to show that, without showing a group of potential protagonists?

 

We could do the alternate route of several different box arts--but that's expensive, since it requires separate printings.  Posters would be easier to do that with, but still not cheap.

 

And yes, I know that box art isn't the main source of info these days.  I find out most of what I know about games online, for that matter.  But the box art does still matter, for those who aren't watching a specific genre, or a specific game.  A lot of times you might miss out on a game that's outside of your normal radar.  You go into the game store, and lo and behold, there are these boxes and cases and hey that one looks interesting... And you pick it up and you read the back and then maybe you think about buying it.

 

I'm just making a suggestion on how marketing could be more inclusive, at least in terms of the box art.  Do I have to come up with an entire marketing campaign to satisfy you?  If you have a better notion, then by all means share it.

 

I am fond of the Inquisitor helmet and ring, myself, but despite being great designs, they reveal precisely nothing about the game or its gameplay or the choices we can make within the game.  The art, the trailer, etc. need to have character--not necessarily *A* character, but you get my meaning.  And if we're going to promote choice and diversity, we need to display that somehow.  How will you do that without showing a variety of characters in a variety of genders and races and classes and skin tones?

 

Words? Not everything needs to be a picture. One of the greatest blunders of modern marketing is not knowing how to write concise statements that convey information about your product worth squat.

 

"Explore a world where the game reacts to everything about your character, including race, class, gender and personality!" BOOM. That gives us more information than countless face pics would. Heck, it's more information than what we got from most of DA2's marketing, in terms of what the game actually offered to players.

[GVulture]

That's ridiculous. All I hear the other ladies asking for, and what I'm asking for is that they please show us some female PC shreenshots/vids or whatever sometime in the future. What I hear you saying is that it's silly, and if they give us that, we will demand lots of unreasonable things. That's not what you are saying, is it? Do we ladies not merit some inclusion and acknowledgement in this show and tell phase that DAI is currently in?   

That is all I hear too (not saying this about Fast Jimmy specifically), when ladies clamor for equal show in the advertising there is always someone that chimes in with, "If we start showing lady versions on the cover too we have to start showing off EVERY POSSIBLE PC option! Nope! Can't be done, so let's just keep it the way it is because giving a little means that cats will start marrying dogs and rain will start going up!"

[Fast Jimmy]

That's ridiculous. All I hear the other ladies asking for, and what I'm asking for is that they please show us some female PC shreenshots/vids or whatever sometime in the future. What I hear you saying is that it's silly, and if they give us that, we will demand lots of unreasonable things. That's not what you are saying, is it? Do we ladies not merit some inclusion and acknowledgement in this show and tell phase that DAI is currently in?   

 

Screenshots and gameplay videos are a different beast. You HAVE to show a pre-created character for those... there's no way you can get around that. That's not what I'm talking about.

 

And I'm not saying people will start "demanding" anything... but the second you include something (even a white dudebro) is the second you start excluding others. Equal representation of males and females will be unequal representation of skin tone, or fictional race. Would DA4 then have threads saying "Bioware, quit ignoring the dwarf fans - put some dwarves on the cover/in the marketing materials!" Heck, this can even extend to hair color - let's not forget the blonde/brunette/redhead wars that flamed up when they put the appearance of FemShep up for a vote.

 

 

I think Bioware would be wise to show a video or screenshot or voiceover or whatever with a female Inquisitor - it would be a great idea. But when it comes to more true "marketing" material, ambiguity would be the best route, hands down.

[GVulture]

Screenshots and gameplay videos are a different beast. You HAVE to show a pre-created character for those... there's no way you can get around that. That's not what I'm talking about.

 

And I'm not saying people will start "demanding" anything... but the second you include something (even a white dudebro) is the second you start excluding others. Equal representation of males and females will be unequal representation of skin tone, or fictional race. Would DA4 then have threads saying "Bioware, quit ignoring the dwarf fans - put some dwarves on the cover/in the marketing materials!" Heck, this can even extend to hair color - let's not forget the blonde/brunette/redhead wars that flamed up when they put the appearance of FemShep up for a vote.

 

 

I think Bioware would be wise to show a video or screenshot or voiceover or whatever with a female Inquisitor - it would be a great idea. But when it comes to more true "marketing" material, ambiguity would be the best route, hands down.

When it comes to gameplay videos... Unless you are showing something from start to finish like a demo live stream or whatever, it doesn't take much to edit in cuts of different PCs. Or even ticking back and forth between the male/female default version. There are fan-made music videos that manage to cut back and forth between Sheploo and Jane, why wouldn't a video game/advertising company with much more experience and resources be able to do the same?

[Bekkael]

Screenshots and gameplay videos are a different beast. You HAVE to show a pre-created character for those... there's no way you can get around that. That's not what I'm talking about.

 

And I'm not saying people will start "demanding" anything... but the second you include something (even a white dudebro) is the second you start excluding others. Equal representation of males and females will be unequal representation of skin tone, or fictional race. Would DA4 then have threads saying "Bioware, quit ignoring the dwarf fans - put some dwarves on the cover/in the marketing materials!" Heck, this can even extend to hair color - let's not forget the blonde/brunette/redhead wars that flamed up when they put the appearance of FemShep up for a vote.

 

 

I think Bioware would be wise to show a video or screenshot or voiceover or whatever with a female Inquisitor - it would be a great idea. But when it comes to more true "marketing" material, ambiguity would be the best route, hands down.

 

It's already done though. BioWare has used a male character (when they show the PC) for their marketing for most of their games. What's wrong with requesting, that just one time, they actually consider using a female PC? I think my black, asian, white sisters, and every other persuasion of woman you can think of would be just fine with them using ANY female PC. Dwarf, Qunari, Elf, ANYTHING. Just acknowledge we exist. For the love of God, is that really asking for the sun and moon?

[Fast Jimmy]

When it comes to gameplay videos... Unless you are showing something from start to finish like a demo live stream or whatever, it doesn't take much to edit in cuts of different PCs. Or even ticking back and forth between the male/female default version. There are fan-made music videos that manage to cut back and forth between Sheploo and Jane, why wouldn't a video game/advertising company with much more experience and resources be able to do the same?

 

I'm confused why you think I don't think Bioware could manage this? I just said it was a good idea for gameplay videos in the post you quoted.

[Brass_Buckles]

Sure there is. This very discussion is a PERFECT excuse to not do that.

 

Because today, we'll get discussions about box art that mentions male and female characters equally. Then there will be requests for all ethnicities to appear on there as well, since only white protagonists have been on the cover before. Then all classes should be reflected equally, all fantasy races, all variations of classes (rogues aren't just dual wielders, they are archers too), etc., etc.

 

It gets to the point where, by trying to appeal to everyone who could conceivably buy your game, you simply go through an exhaustive checklist of demographics to include, just in case you missed someone.

 

 

To me, personally, that just sounds insulting. Maybe not as insulting as always putting a white dudebro on the cover, I'll grant. But still - to reduce ethnicity/gender/what-have-you as a marketing "To Do" list to make sure someone is lined up on the box art demeans the point.

 

Again, I'd rather Bioware keep it ambiguous for a large number of reasons. And find a way to market the ability to choose - not place any pre-rendered appearances in the materials at all. It promotes one of the biggest aspects of the game and it keeps such issues from people being offended or neglected. Otherwise, you will always leave someone out or reduce everyone to a box to be checked off.

 

 

There aren't too many ways to make advertising ambiguous once we get into box art and video territory.  Sure you could show the Inquisitor from a great distance, but we will still be able to tell unless he or she is ant-sized that it's a qunari or a dwarf.  Or we could show a fully armored back view, and everyone will assume Male, because the gaming industry and the movie industry have taught us that everything defaults to Male.

 

Or we can just be lazy and put another beardy white man on the cover because we're afraid of offending someone by not putting a beardy white man on the cover.  That way everyone else is just offended equally and the white male audience is still happy.

 

For equality's sake, I don't want the female Inquisitor to be the primary advertised Inquisitor, although I will say that if she were, it would only be fair.  But why can't we have more diversity in our trailers and artwork?  I am sure there will be more than one trailer, come release date.  I am sure there will be at least one poster, possibly two.  And every box and every case has two sides to it.  The very least that can be done is to promote genders equally, and if the Inquisitors also stray from being as white as the driven snow, there's nothing at all wrong with that either.  Skin tone differences should just be included in some marketing as incidental to the character design--to show that yes you can be non-white if the mood strikes you.

 

It doesn't make a lot of sense to market "the ability to choose," and then not, you know, show results of that choice.  What do you want, a trailer showing a clip of the character creator?  I think that would be somewhat boring.  Does the idea of a woman on your game box bother you?  Or a black man?  Or an Asian inspired female elf?

 

We are only asking politely that women be marketed to, since we do make a significant amount of the playerbase.  We are trying to be positive in suggesting ideas how this might be done.  You are being very negative about it all, without offering any positive input or any valid suggestions of your own whatsoever, other than to imply we're all whiners and should just shut up and stop being so darn politically correct.  I mean how dare we desire to have more gamers represented in advertising?

[Fast Jimmy]

It's already done though. BioWare has used a male character (when they show the PC) for their marketing for most of their games. What's wrong with requesting, that just one time, they actually consider using a female PC? I think my black, asian, white sisters, and every other persuasion of woman you can think of would be just fine with them using ANY female PC. Dwarf, Qunari, Elf, ANYTHING. Just acknowledge we exist. For the love of God, is that really asking for the sun and moon?

 

Well, I think it's a little rash to talk on behalf of over three billion people and what they would or would not "be just fine with."

 

But barring that, it becomes a slippery slope. Again... why not work to inform people instead of risking disenfranchising them? Saying "it's not fair that women have never gotten a front cover of a Bioware game" is missing the point that a set protagonist, of any gender, race, class or overall appearance, is actively harmful to the idea that Bioware should be trying to convey - that it is a character you can highly customize in appearance, actions, personality and gameplay. A set protagonist harms the transmission of that message... that it would be a female protagonist may be some form of karmic repayment to the female community, but it is still actively campaigning ignorance of one of the best, most resource-intensive features of the series. 

 

Does it make sense when I frame the discussion like that?

[GVulture]

I'm confused why you think I don't think Bioware could manage this? I just said it was a good idea for gameplay videos in the post you quoted.

I forget that the forum doesn't "tree" the replies. I was agreeing with you, but wanting to add it to your reply to the other guy. =\

[Fast Jimmy]

I forget that the forum doesn't "tree" the replies. I was agreeing with you, but wanting to add it to your reply to the other guy. =\

 

Ah, my apologies.

[Bekkael]

Well, I think it's a little rash to talk on behalf of over three billion people and what they would or would not "be just fine with."

 

But barring that, it becomes a slippery slope. Again... why not work to inform people instead of risking disenfranchising them? Saying "it's not fair that women have never gotten a front cover of a Bioware game" is missing the point that a set protagonist, of any gender, race, class or overall appearnce, is actively harmful to the idea that Bioware should be trying to convey - that it is a character you can highly customize in appearance, actions, personality and gameplay. A set protagonist harms the transmission of that message... that it would be a female protagonist may be some form of karmic repayment to the female community, but it is still actively campaigning ignorance of one of the best, most resource-intensive features of the series. 

 

Does it make sense when I frame the discussion like that?

 

There's more than 1 gameplay trailer of DAI right now. It features the same male Inquisitor, therefore a set character. Your argument is invalid.

 

I understand what you're saying, but BioWare already does what you don't like: they use a set protagonist in their advertising, and he's male, so I find your saying we should not request equal represntation somewhat irrelevant.

 

Maybe I can't speak for all persuasions of women, but personally, I would do a backflip if there were an asian or black woman PC used in a trailer. I want my gender of PC represented and acknowledged. There are only 2 genders, and 1 of them never gets used in marketing. That's blatantly unfair, and that's my sole point in this discussion, as well as to ask BioWare to please change this.

[Brass_Buckles]

There's more than 1 gameplay trailer of DAI right now. It features the same male Inquisitor, therefore a set character. Your argument is invalid.

 

I understand what you're saying, but BioWare already does what you don't like: they use a set protagonist in their advertising, and he's male, so I find your saying we should not request equal represntation somewhat irrelevant.

 

Maybe I can't speak for all persuasions of women, but personally, I would do a backflip if there were an asian or black woman PC used in a trailer. I want my gender of PC represented and acknowledged. There are only 2 genders, and 1 of them never gets used in marketing. That's blatantly unfair, and that's my sole point in this discussion, as well as to ask BioWare to please change this.

 

You notice he also goes on about ambiguity in the campaign, and how it's important to have a set character (the background art on the site, and the trailer character are male so his point is already moot  and yes we have every right to feel left out), but he never once offers any kind of positive solution for how females could be included in marketing, or how choice could or should be represented in terms of characters.  Instead he complains that it would be too politically correct to do anything like including females or people of color.

 

I'm still waiting for him to correct that, and let us know his solution to this problem we have.  So far it is looking like his solution is "stick with beardy white guy, ignore polite requests by large number of fans who want to see the female character advertised even though their anecdotal experiences suggest that doing so would bring more female gamers into the market."

[Fast Jimmy]

There's more than 1 gameplay trailer of DAI right now. It features the same male Inquisitor, therefore a set character. Your argument is invalid.

 

I understand what you're saying, but BioWare already does what you don't like: they use a set protagonist in their advertising, and he's male, so I find your saying we should not request equal represntation somewhat irrelevant.

 

Maybe I can't speak for all persuasions of women, but personally, I would do a backflip if there were an asian or black woman PC used in a trailer. I want my gender of PC represented and acknowledged. There are only 2 genders, and 1 of them never gets used in marketing. That's blatantly unfair, and that's my sole point in this discussion, as well as to ask BioWare to please change this.

 

Actually, there is only one gameplay trailer right now for DA:I - the PAX Demo (or the same demo recorded at another convention, which demonstrates the same footage). The most recent trailer does have a male voice (I haven't been keeping up to know with 100% certainty that the voice is DEFINITELY the male Inquisitor, but I'm fairly confident it is) doing the voice over, so yes - of the two trailers we've seen that have appeared to given details about the Inquisitor, they have been male. And human. And white. 

 

That is highly unfortunate. I know Bioware has been pretty bad about parading their default protagonists pre-release. And I've really not liked it - again, it hurts one of their highest cost sources, since they spend countless hours and money making these features able to accommodate a wide variety of appearances and backgrounds and then work against those efforts by promoting one appearance. That's silly. That's actually more than silly - that's actively insane.

 

So I do agree with you that Bioware has been (and continues) to be bad about this... but I still don't think it's a good idea. And until we get a true trailer marketing a set protagonist (outside of the voice, which will be set no matter what), I'll hold out that they will be going the route I really want them to. In the meantime, they need to get on some gameplay trailers to show me their systems. Conversations, combat, tactics... we have no idea how those work in a more detailed fashion. So I want some gameplay videos to come out... anything else is just fluff at this point.

 

And if they make every single one of those gameplay trailers female protagonists? That would be just fine and dandy.

[Fast Jimmy]

You notice he also goes on about ambiguity in the campaign, and how it's important to have a set character (the background art on the site, and the trailer character are male so his point is already moot  and yes we have every right to feel left out), but he never once offers any kind of positive solution for how females could be included in marketing, or how choice could or should be represented in terms of characters.  Instead he complains that it would be too politically correct to do anything like including females or people of color.

 

I'm still waiting for him to correct that, and let us know his solution to this problem we have.  So far it is looking like his solution is "stick with beardy white guy, ignore polite requests by large number of fans who want to see the female character advertised even though their anecdotal experiences suggest that doing so would bring more female gamers into the market."

 

Please turn down the indignation. I'm actively suggesting no details on protagonists, whatsoever. White beardy is just as counter effective as white lady. Or black elf. Or South Asian transexual Qunari - all actively push an idea of a main character when huge parts of the systems are designed to allow for great freedom. 

 

 

Again, as I already noted - one sentence description talking about how the game reacts to class, race, gender, personality and story choices. That bit of text not only tells the player that such choices are possible, but also promotes the fact that the game reacts to them... all in one sentence blurb you could include on the box somewhere. Easy as that. 

[Bekkael]

You notice he also goes on about ambiguity in the campaign, and how it's important to have a set character (the background art on the site, and the trailer character are male so his point is already moot  and yes we have every right to feel left out), but he never once offers any kind of positive solution for how females could be included in marketing, or how choice could or should be represented in terms of characters.  Instead he complains that it would be too politically correct to do anything like including females or people of color.

 

I'm still waiting for him to correct that, and let us know his solution to this problem we have.  So far it is looking like his solution is "stick with beardy white guy, ignore polite requests by large number of fans who want to see the female character advertised even though their anecdotal experiences suggest that doing so would bring more female gamers into the market."

 

What I hear from Fast Jimmy's posts is that the way he wants it done (no set gender/class/appearance, or set protagonist at all) is the only valid and reasonable choice because of reasons. I see no attempt to look at the facts of what BioWare is actually doing and what they have done in the past, and attempt a little empathy and support for those of us who are grossly underrepresented (to the point of invisibilty).

 

*shrug* He can correct this impression if it's wrong, but it's the message I'm getting.

[Mes]

*nervously hands out warm cookies* Everyone take one. NOW!

 

I like Fast Jimmy's idea of something ambiguous for the cover with possibly a few key words added on about race and gender options. That would be a nice change from the perennial dude bro.

 

I don't agree though that a dude BRA would also be counter effective, just because... it's so RARE to see a lady protagonist on the cover for this type of game. Just like it's really rare to see a person of color. I think at this stage a dude bra would generate a lot of new interest in the game.

 

We (women and everyone other than straight white men) need more representation - there's no getting around that. 

[Fast Jimmy]

What I hear from Fast Jimmy's posts is that the way he wants it done (no set gender/class/appearance, or set protagonist at all) is the only valid and reasonable choice because of reasons. I see no attempt to look at the facts of what BioWare is actually doing and what they have done in the past, and attempt a little empathy and support for those of us who are grossly underrepresented (to the point of invisibilty).

 

*shrug* He can correct this impression if it's wrong, but it's the message I'm getting.

 

That's about right.

 

Sorry - I can't endorse encouraging a company to do something that's wrong, even if they have the option of doing it wrong in a way that will make others feel better. It's still a wrong, bad idea. And, to date, Bioware has not shown they are using a set male protagonist for their trailers and other official marketing. The most recent trailer is the only thing we've seen on the Inquisitor (again, I'm not including gameplay demos simply because they aren't in the same class or marketing as trailers or box art, which CAN use ambiguity) and it is, yes, a male voice. But that's literally the closest BIoware has come so far in pushing a default or set protagonist with their marketing. There's no reason yet for me to abandon my hope that they will continue the course of ambiguity (except in, as I've stated, types of marketing where it is physically impossible to maintain ambiguity, such as gameplay demos). 

 

So we've had one trailer featuring a male voice and one gameplay demo that used a male character. If there was a different trailer next week that used the female voice and a demo video next month that featured a female in the gameplay, that would be even. So there's hope for all of us.

[Fast Jimmy]

*nervously hands out warm cookies* Everyone take one. NOW!

 

I like Fast Jimmy's idea of something ambiguous for the cover with possibly a few key words added on about race and gender options. That would be a nice change from the perennial dude bro.

 

I don't agree though that a dude BRA would also be counter effective, just because... it's so RARE to see a lady protagonist on the cover for this type of game. Just like it's really rare to see a person of color. I think at this stage a dude bra would generate a lot of new interest in the game.

 

We (women and everyone other than straight white men) need more representation - there's no getting around that. 

 

If a guy looked at the cover of DA:I, saw a dudebra and said "huh, I guess you can't play a male anymore" and put the copy of the game back on the shelf, then how can anyone say that is an active representation of what the DA games deliver? The fact that females have possibly been doing this with Bioware games with a male on the cover in the past is regrettable, but switching the shoe to the other foot doesn't stop the misinformation, it just changes who it is slanted against. 

 

I'm really not trying to be antagonistic - I do empathize. It's just that I think the solutions being propagated to alleviate the situation will wind up simply shifting the problems to others, instead of resolving it at the root.

[Bekkael]

That's about right.

 

Sorry - I can't endorse encouraging a company to do something that's wrong, even if they have the option of doing it wrong in a way that will make others feel better. It's still a wrong, bad idea. And, to date, Bioware has not shown they are using a set male protagonist for their trailers and other official marketing. The most recent trailer is the only thing we've seen on the Inquisitor (again, I'm not including gameplay demos simply because they aren't in the same class or marketing as trailers or box art, which CAN use ambiguity) and it is, yes, a male voice. But that's literally the closest BIoware has come so far in pushing a default or set protagonist with their marketing. There's no reason yet for me to abandon my hope that they will continue the course of ambiguity (except in, as I've stated, types of marketing where it is physically impossible to maintain ambiguity, such as gameplay demos). 

 

So we've had one trailer featuring a male voice and one gameplay demo that used a male character. If there was a different trailer next week that used the female voice and a demo video next month that featured a female in the gameplay, that would be even. So there's hope for all of us.

 

That's what I thought you were saying. Thanks for clearing it up. There's nothing at all wrong with having a different preference and opinion, I just don't happen to agree with it. At all.

 

*eagerly grabs cookies* Thank you, Mes.

[Brass_Buckles]

Please turn down the indignation. I'm actively suggesting no details on protagonists, whatsoever. White beardy is just as counter effective as white lady. Or black elf. Or South Asian transexual Qunari - all actively push an idea of a main character when huge parts of the systems are designed to allow for great freedom. 

 

 

Again, as I already noted - one sentence description talking about how the game reacts to class, race, gender, personality and story choices. That bit of text not only tells the player that such choices are possible, but also promotes the fact that the game reacts to them... all in one sentence blurb you could include on the box somewhere. Easy as that. 

 

You've come into a thread where we're asking politely that women be more included in marketing and trying to offer constructive means to do so, and you have basically said, "haha no sorry because dudebro is already there, sorry ladies but we only need one lead and it's a dude and he's white--there's no room for anyone else."  Yes, I'm going to be indignant about that.

 

Again, there's pretty much no means of making it ambiguous without having trailers etc. with more than one protagonist clip shown.  You show a back with no face and no real defining features, people will assume White Male and not Ambiguous Character Who Could Be Anyone.  You show a character from a great distance, they will assume White Male.

 

If you show a ring on a hand, that hand is going to parse as either masculine or feminine.  If you show a helmet and a weapon, people will get "fantasy game" from that, but they won't get anything about "choice."  It might as well be Generic Fantasy Game 313413143y for all they know or care.

 

Words are useful tools in advertising, but by and large you're going to get more impact from imagery.  People see the image first, THEN they read the typography, unless the typography is the image.  I know this:  I make ads for a living.  Do I know more than the people who make ads for Bioware?  I don't know, but I can't see Bioware making their cover, or their trailer, simply a huge block of text reading:  YOUR CHOICE.  People would simply look at that and scratch their heads.  Sure, it might bring in a person or two who's curious about what do they mean, "My choice?"

 

Because of the importance of imagery, it does need to be something gripping.  But if we are to emphasize choice, we need to see that reflected somehow in that imagery.  Choosing who you're going to be is just as important as choosing whether or not you're going to let that village burn.

 

Which gives me a very compelling box art idea:  Front cover, male Inquisitor standing atop a keep tower with back to the viewer, watching a village burn--bonus points if he's elf, dwarf, or qunari.  Back cover, female inquisitor standing in the village, back to the viewer, staring toward the keep as it crumbles to the ground.  It's ambiguous and it displays both characters.  For those on consoles it could be a split cover instead.  It could be a split view vertically or horizontally on the posters, with YOUR CHOICE written large in between.  ... Yes, I rather like the idea.  But if I were to listen to you, we should only have the Male Inquisitor because it would just be too unambiguous to have both, even if we see neither face.

 

Long post, tl;dr?

 

The only way to be inclusive is, frankly, to be inclusive.