9318 réponses à ce sujet

[Fast Jimmy]

You've come into a thread where we're asking politely that women be more included in marketing and trying to offer constructive means to do so, and you have basically said, "haha no sorry because dudebro is already there, sorry ladies but we only need one lead and it's a dude and he's white--there's no room for anyone else."  Yes, I'm going to be indignant about that.

 

Again, there's pretty much no means of making it ambiguous without having trailers etc. with more than one protagonist clip shown.  You show a back with no face and no real defining features, people will assume White Male and not Ambiguous Character Who Could Be Anyone.  You show a character from a great distance, they will assume White Male.

 

If you show a ring on a hand, that hand is going to parse as either masculine or feminine.  If you show a helmet and a weapon, people will get "fantasy game" from that, but they won't get anything about "choice."  It might as well be Generic Fantasy Game 313413143y for all they know or care.

 

Words are useful tools in advertising, but by and large you're going to get more impact from imagery.  People see the image first, THEN they read the typography, unless the typography is the image.  I know this:  I make ads for a living.  Do I know more than the people who make ads for Bioware?  I don't know, but I can't see Bioware making their cover, or their trailer, simply a huge block of text reading:  YOUR CHOICE.  People would simply look at that and scratch their heads.  Sure, it might bring in a person or two who's curious about what do they mean, "My choice?"

 

Because of the importance of imagery, it does need to be something gripping.  But if we are to emphasize choice, we need to see that reflected somehow in that imagery.  Choosing who you're going to be is just as important as choosing whether or not you're going to let that village burn.

 

Which gives me a very compelling box art idea:  Front cover, male Inquisitor standing atop a keep tower with back to the viewer, watching a village burn--bonus points if he's elf, dwarf, or qunari.  Back cover, female inquisitor standing in the village, back to the viewer, staring toward the keep as it crumbles to the ground.  It's ambiguous and it displays both characters.  For those on consoles it could be a split cover instead.  It could be a split view vertically or horizontally on the posters, with YOUR CHOICE written large in between.  ... Yes, I rather like the idea.  But if I were to listen to you, we should only have the Male Inquisitor because it would just be too unambiguous to have both, even if we see neither face.

 

Long post, tl;dr?

 

The only way to be inclusive is, frankly, to be inclusive.

 

Okay, since you clearly are not reading any word that I am writing, again assuming I am advocating a white dudebro, then you leave me no choice but to inform you that I am going to be ignoring every word you write for the remainder of this discussion. I apologize we couldn't all be more attentive of each other's desires and positions.

[Mes]

If a guy looked at the cover of DA:I, saw a dudebra and said "huh, I guess you can't play a male anymore" and put the copy of the game back on the shelf, then how can anyone say that is an active representation of what the DA games deliver? The fact that females have possibly been doing this with Bioware games with a male on the cover in the past is regrettable, but switching the shoe to the other foot doesn't stop the misinformation, it just changes who it is slanted against. 

 

 

Okay. I think here you are just assuming failure. I, on the other hand, think that freshening up the cover art with a female for a change would not discourage anyone. 

 

Look I get what you're saying, but let's face it - you're not saying it in a very nice way. You're telling us that NO we can't have some representation because reasons. You're fighting so adamantly that it almost seems like you'd rather keep the dude bro over anything else, even over the ambiguous art you suggested. 

[Fast Jimmy]

Okay. I think here you are just assuming failure. I, on the other hand, think that freshening up the cover art with a female for a change would not discourage anyone. 

 

Look I get what you're saying, but let's face it - you're not saying it in a very nice way. You're telling us that NO we can't have some representation because reasons. You're fighting so adamantly that it almost seems like you'd rather keep the dude bro over anything else, even over the ambiguous art you suggested. 

 

But I'm not keeping the dudebro. At all. I've advocated a helmet on the cover. Is a helmet that can be worn by males and females suddenly male? And white, for some reason?

 

DA:O had a blood splatter in the shape of a dragon. Is that a dudebro? No - it is a simple motif. A customer - man, woman, plant, what-have-you - can look at that and say "ohhh... I like dragons! What is this game about?" without feeling any confusion about who the main character is or could be. The same could apply to a helmet - a simple helmet, which we've seen used in conjunction with the game already.

 

 

Couple that with some shots like what we've seen already in the trailers or concept art (that don't show the main character at all, basically 99% of the shots we've seen) and you've got a visually stimulating setup. Couple that with an informative sentence that specifically mentions all the ways the game let's you customize your character (my sentence mentioned race, appearance, gender, class, story choices and personality) and suddenly you've got a piece of material that doesn't place any pre-conceptions in the gamers head of what the main character will be, other than the idea that they can make them whatever they want.

 

 

 

I'm failing to see how that idea is so offensive.

[Brass_Buckles]

Okay, since you clearly are not reading any word that I am writing, again assuming I am advocating a white dudebro, then you leave me no choice but to inform you that I am going to be ignoring every word you write for the remainder of this discussion. I apologize we couldn't all be more attentive of each other's desires and positions.

 

No, the problem is not that I haven't read a word you said, it's that I've read everything you've said and you seem to be rather belligerantly opposed to the thing that I've politely requested, along with several other ladies.  I haven't said we can't have the Beardy White Guy at all, only that I'd like to see the female Inquisitor some.  I don't even expect her to get equal airtime at this point, much as I'll argue until I'm blue in the face that she SHOULD.  You insist on arguing against that point very insistently, and now you're simply being condescending.

 

You don't even really want ambiguous art or trailers. If you did, you'd have taken up my challenge to offer some suggestion on how to make it so, and yet still not make it boring.  The only contribution you're making to a thread that is meant to be constructive and most of all positive, is a lot of negativity and, as Mes said above, basically saying "no because reasons," but never really justifying precisely what those reasons are.  You have showed hostility to even the most basic concepts of inclusivity, whether it be for gender or for skin color.  I'd like to see some actual solid reasons why you think female marketing is a bad idea.  Do you really think a female protagonist turns men away?  If it does, they probably aren't mature enough for a Mature-rated game in the first place; most of us outgrew the notion that boys/girls have cooties long ago.

 

If we all went along with your logic, the right time to be inclusive of women in the gaming circle would be approximately never, because we'd never even see so much as a baby step toward advertising to a female audience.

 

If you had followed this thread, you'd realize that a lot of us would have bought Bioware games (and maybe some others) a lot sooner, had women been marketed to.  That's nothing to sneeze at, because a lot more women could be drawn in by having women protagonists be portrayed in the art and trailers, along with the men.

 

I have not said I want women to be prioritized over men.  I want equality, not precedence or superiority.  But if I can't have equality then I'll be satisfied if they at least take a baby step into the realm of acknowledging that they do have female players.  And I will thank the Maker that the developers, even if not the marketers, are more likely to be awesome and listen to those of us who are capable of making a polite request to not be made invisible than to agree with people like you that nothing should ever change.

[GVulture]

 

Which gives me a very compelling box art idea:  Front cover, male Inquisitor standing atop a keep tower with back to the viewer, watching a village burn--bonus points if he's elf, dwarf, or qunari.  Back cover, female inquisitor standing in the village, back to the viewer, staring toward the keep as it crumbles to the ground.  It's ambiguous and it displays both characters.  For those on consoles it could be a split cover instead.  It could be a split view vertically or horizontally on the posters, with YOUR CHOICE written large in between.  ... Yes, I rather like the idea.  But if I were to listen to you, we should only have the Male Inquisitor because it would just be too unambiguous to have both, even if we see neither face.

 

Long post, tl;dr?

 

The only way to be inclusive is, frankly, to be inclusive.

Ooooooooh, my god. That sounds so freaking awesome. Funnily enough almost exactly what Obsidian Lucasarts did with their LS Exile and DS Exile marketing. Everything was split and shows the LS/DS versions of all the companions (since the Exile raised up or brought down the companions alignments with them).

 

Wow Like. Much want. Very awesome.

[Mes]

But I'm not keeping the dudebro. At all. I've advocated a helmet on the cover. Is a helmet that can be worn by males and females suddenly male? And white, for some reason?

 

DA:O had a blood splatter in the shape of a dragon. Is that a dudebro? No - it is a simple motif. A customer - man, woman, plant, what-have-you - can look at that and say "ohhh... I like dragons! What is this game about?" without feeling any confusion about who the main character is or could be. The same could apply to a helmet - a simple helmet, which we've seen used in conjunction with the game already.

 

 

Couple that with some shots like what we've seen already in the trailers or concept art (that don't show the main character at all, basically 99% of the shots we've seen) and you've got a visually stimulating setup. Couple that with an informative sentence that specifically mentions all the ways the game let's you customize your character (my sentence mentioned race, appearance, gender, class, story choices and personality) and suddenly you've got a piece of material that doesn't place any pre-conceptions in the gamers head of what the main character will be, other than the idea that they can make them whatever they want.

 

 

 

I'm failing to see how that idea is so offensive.

 

The idea isn't offensive. It's your explanations of it.

 

For instance you said we can't have a female character on the cover because it would turn away some guy gamers. You don't know that, though, do you. None of us *know* for a fact what that type of advertisement would do because we don't really have any data to go off of. 

 

Often times women aren't represented in certain types of media because some man sits somewhere and says "I don't think it'll work" and that's the end of it. The battle of getting a female superhero her own movie is one example. 

 

We NEED representation, and a lone helmet on the cover won't do it. It just won't. 

[Bekkael]

But I'm not keeping the dudebro. At all. I've advocated a helmet on the cover. Is a helmet that can be worn by males and females suddenly male? And white, for some reason?

 

DA:O had a blood splatter in the shape of a dragon. Is that a dudebro? No - it is a simple motif. A customer - man, woman, plant, what-have-you - can look at that and say "ohhh... I like dragons! What is this game about?" without feeling any confusion about who the main character is or could be. The same could apply to a helmet - a simple helmet, which we've seen used in conjunction with the game already.

 

 

Couple that with some shots like what we've seen already in the trailers or concept art (that don't show the main character at all, basically 99% of the shots we've seen) and you've got a visually stimulating setup. Couple that with an informative sentence that specifically mentions all the ways the game let's you customize your character (my sentence mentioned race, appearance, gender, class, story choices and personality) and suddenly you've got a piece of material that doesn't place any pre-conceptions in the gamers head of what the main character will be, other than the idea that they can make them whatever they want.

 

 

 

I'm failing to see how that idea is so offensive.

 

I think it really might be beneficial for you to make a thread asking BioWare for all the things you specifically want/don't want, instead of continuing in this thread to belittle what we women are politely requesting, and basically insulting several of us.

 

I don't know why men get so threatened every time one of these threads asking for gender equality gets started, but it's pretty damn discouraging as the mods always end up locking the threads because of it. So frustrating.....

[Mes]

I think it really might be beneficial for you to make a thread asking BioWare for all the things you specifically want/don't want, instead of continuing in this thread to belittle what we women are politely requesting, and basically insulting several of us.

 

I don't know why men get so threatened every time one of these threads asking for gender equality gets started, but it's pretty damn discouraging as the mods always end up locking the threads because of it. So frustrating.....

 

Yep - someone always ruins it for the rest of us. 

[Brass_Buckles]

I think it really might be beneficial for you to make a thread asking BioWare for all the things you specifically want/don't want, instead of continuing in this thread to belittle what we women are politely requesting, and basically insulting several of us.

 

I don't know why men get so threatened every time one of these threads asking for gender equality gets started, but it's pretty damn discouraging as the mods always end up locking the threads because of it. So frustrating.....

 

 

I'm just going to say this here so others can follow suit if they wish, I'm putting him on my Ignore list, at least for now.  I hate doing that, because even people I disagree with (sometimes vehemently) sometimes have intelligent and valuable things to say.  But if I don't, I'm afraid my temper's going to truly get the better of me and things will go downhill fast.  Yes, he is being rather insulting, though I honestly don't think he understands how or why, and I'm afraid I'm going to give as good as I get if this continues.

 

So to Fast Jimmy:  I DO respect you as a human being; you seem intelligent and in person we might even get along.  But, for the time being, we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this matter, and I'm not going to discuss this topic with you any further.

[Fast Jimmy]

The idea isn't offensive. It's your explanations of it.

 

For instance you said we can't have a female character on the cover because it would turn away some guy gamers. You don't know that, though, do you. None of us *know* for a fact what that type of advertisement would do because we don't really have any data to go off of. 

 

Often times women aren't represented in certain types of media because some man sits somewhere and says "I don't think it'll work" and that's the end of it. The battle of getting a female superhero her own movie is one example. 

 

We NEED representation, and a lone helmet on the cover won't do it. It just won't. 

 

I'm not saying having a female on the cover would be wrong because it would turn away guys. At least not in a "how dare they even THINK to offend the almighty male gamer?!" 

 

I'm saying that if the point of marketing materials is to educate the public about your product, then why would it not be okay to confuse women gamers into thinking they can't play as women characters when they can, but somehow okay to confuse male gamers into the same thing? It's trading one problem for the same exact problem on another foot.

 

 

There have been instances of females on the covers of games recently. The Tomb Raider reboot. Beyond Two Souls. Assassin's Creed Liberation. These games have done well financially and critically. I'm not arguing that the game would possibly debunk because it dared have a female. That's not what my position is at all.

 

But we're still perpetuating a cycle of ignorance about how the game works. You can play a guy. You can play a girl. You can play any of four fantasy races. You can be gruff and direct, or polite and passive. You can possibly choose to help mages or support Templars. You can play as hetero, ******, bi or pan sexual. Would putting a woman on the cover, which could lead to confusion on any of those options, be a better situation? Would it be any better than putting a guy on the cover, aside from a point of view of "catching up" for female gamers?

[Fast Jimmy]

I think it really might be beneficial for you to make a thread asking BioWare for all the things you specifically want/don't want, instead of continuing in this thread to belittle what we women are politely requesting, and basically insulting several of us.

 

I don't know why men get so threatened every time one of these threads asking for gender equality gets started, but it's pretty damn discouraging as the mods always end up locking the threads because of it. So frustrating.....

 

I'm sorry. I felt I was being fairly cordial and polite. Especially considering I am being actively called sexist for explaining that I think any set protagonist used in the marketing is counter-productive to what Bioware is doing with the series. 

[Bekkael]

I'm just going to say this here so others can follow suit if they wish, I'm putting him on my Ignore list, at least for now.  I hate doing that, because even people I disagree with (sometimes vehemently) sometimes have intelligent and valuable things to say.  But if I don't, I'm afraid my temper's going to truly get the better of me and things will go downhill fast.  Yes, he is being rather insulting, though I honestly don't think he understands how or why, and I'm afraid I'm going to give as good as I get if this continues.

 

So to Fast Jimmy:  I DO respect you as a human being; you seem intelligent and in person we might even get along.  But, for the time being, we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this matter, and I'm not going to discuss this topic with you any further.

 

Thanks for that suggestion. It took me a moment to figure out how to do the ignore thing since I've never done it before, but I'm good now.

 

I also thought your box art idea was awesome! I would love something like that emphasizing different story choices.

[Fast Jimmy]

Thanks for that suggestion. It took me a moment to figure out how to do the ignore thing since I've never done it before, but I'm good now.

 

I also thought your box art idea was awesome! I would love something like that emphasizing different story choices.

 

I'm sorry to hear that. If you can still see this message, feel free to report any individual posts I made that you felt were inconsiderate or blatantly a violation of the site rules or your personal feelings of comfort.

[Mes]

I'm not saying having a female on the cover would be wrong because it would turn away guys. At least not in a "how dare they even THINK to offend the almighty male gamer?!" 

 

I'm saying that if the point of marketing materials is to educate the public about your product, then why would it not be okay to confuse women gamers into thinking they can't play as women characters when they can, but somehow okay to confuse male gamers into the same thing? It's trading one problem for the same exact problem on another foot.

 

 

There have been instances of females on the covers of games recently. The Tomb Raider reboot. Beyond Two Souls. Assassin's Creed Liberation. These games have done well financially and critically. I'm not arguing that the game would possibly debunk because it dared have a female. That's not what my position is at all.

 

But we're still perpetuating a cycle of ignorance about how the game works. You can play a guy. You can play a girl. You can play any of four fantasy races. You can be gruff and direct, or polite and passive. You can possibly choose to help mages or support Templars. You can play as hetero, ******, bi or pan sexual. Would putting a woman on the cover, which could lead to confusion on any of those options, be a better situation? Would it be any better than putting a guy on the cover, aside from a point of view of "catching up" for female gamers?

 

Trust me I get what you're saying. We are definitely disagreeing on the merits of something ambiguous versus a woman on the cover. You think the former is the best marketing strategy, but I think the latter, for a change, is better.

 

There are many benefits of placing a female on a game cover, and no not someone like Lara Croft or Bayonetta, but an armored, strong leader... Like what we've seen of the male Inquisitor, yet female.

 

Men and women, boys and girls, need more exposure to women in these positions of power and heroism (not sex). 

 

Our society is still so unequal - women are still often treated as second class citizens, inferior to men. I think we need more representation of women, and other races and sexualities, before we can start to think about ambiguous covers. 

 

That's my opinion, and the reason for this thread's existence. In the name of social progress, we need this. In many ways it goes beyond just this ONE GAME, which is the reason some of your arguments don't sit well with people. We're trying hard, here, all the time, for some equality, and recognition. 

[Bekkael]

I'd rather have a nug on the front cover. 

 

That's only available on the Fuzzy and Cute Collector's Edition.

 

(PS It's a female nug! )

[Brass_Buckles]

Thanks for that suggestion. It took me a moment to figure out how to do the ignore thing since I've never done it before, but I'm good now.

 

I also thought your box art idea was awesome! I would love something like that emphasizing different story choices.

 

Yeah, that's why I thought of it.  That, and the image of the Inquisitor standing on the big rock on the background of the site.  Why couldn't it be between the crenellations of a keep's tower?  Make one a man, and one a woman, maybe have one be a qunari and the other an elf or dwarf or human, and use the art to emphasize that what you do matters.  Women don't get left out, no one feels left out due to their skin color (because that isn't shown), it's a win-win.

 

I doubt that'll be anything like their actual design, and it would definitely take their concept artist to illustrate it; I don't think a render would do it justice.  I can't even make a mockup for it, since while I can do a little art, my illustration and perspective skills are, well... let's just say they leave everything to be desired.

[Bekkael]

Trust me I get what you're saying. We are definitely disagreeing on the merits of something ambiguous versus a woman on the cover. You think the former is the best marketing strategy, but I think the latter, for a change, is better.

 

There are many benefits of placing a female on a game cover, and no not someone like Lara Croft or Bayonetta, but an armored, strong leader... Like what we've seen of the male Inquisitor, yet female.

 

Men and women, boys and girls, need more exposure to women in these positions of power and heroism (not sex). 

 

Our society is still so unequal - women are still often treated as second class citizens, inferior to men. I think we need more representation of women, and other races and sexualities, before we can start to think about ambiguous covers. 

 

That's my opinion, and the reason for this thread's existence. 

 

I would love someone like Brienne from Game of Thrones.

[Mes]

I would love love love someone like Brienne. 

 

Or Xena.   She was the whole package for me.

[Darth Krytie]

I am not necessarily opposed to neutral marketing. (Yes, Origins had a dragon splatter...But DA: Kirkwall had DudeHawke.) I have a DA:2 poster and it has DudeHawke because there were no ladyHawke posters.

 

I think it's easy to say representation is a slippery slope and pretty soon the people who play some very low percentage combination of features is going to start demanding equal face time when you're already being represented. There's no stake in the fight, really. Dudes already have representation in Games. They have almost all of it. And when ladies do get a turn, they're usually highly sexualised to the point of ridiculousness.

 

So, yes, I think there needs to be a concerted effort to market games to women. To highlight female protags in game. To do something because the balance is so off, it's like putting a pebble on one side of a see-saw and the empire state building on the other.

[GVulture]

Yeah, that's why I thought of it.  That, and the image of the Inquisitor standing on the big rock on the background of the site.  Why couldn't it be between the crenellations of a keep's tower?  Make one a man, and one a woman, maybe have one be a qunari and the other an elf or dwarf or human, and use the art to emphasize that what you do matters.  Women don't get left out, no one feels left out due to their skin color (because that isn't shown), it's a win-win.

 

I doubt that'll be anything like their actual design, and it would definitely take their concept artist to illustrate it; I don't think a render would do it justice.  I can't even make a mockup for it, since while I can do a little art, my illustration and perspective skills are, well... let's just say they leave everything to be desired.

Funny side note. Inquisitior on the rock? Female. "Master of all SHE Surveys." Matt Rhodes is the actual best.

[Darth Krytie]

I was trying to put my finger on why that argument about the elves, quanri, dwarves (fantasy) didn't fly with me...and then it hit me...

 

It's because unlike them, women exist in real life. Women wanting to see women on the cover is different because there are no Qunari in the world wanting equal face time. There are no elves flitting about not getting recognised as a market. That's why the argument is crap.

[Mes]

I was trying to put my finger on why that argument about the elves, quanri, dwarves (fantasy) didn't fly with me...and then it hit me...

 

It's because unlike them, women exist in real life. Women wanting to see women on the cover is different because there are no Qunari in the world wanting equal face time. There are no elves flitting about not getting recognised as a market. That's why the argument is crap.

 

Fffft I'm half elf from my mother's side and am married into a Qunari family. I take offense at this!

[GVulture]

I'm not saying having a female on the cover would be wrong because it would turn away guys. At least not in a "how dare they even THINK to offend the almighty male gamer?!" 

 

I'm saying that if the point of marketing materials is to educate the public about your product, then why would it not be okay to confuse women gamers into thinking they can't play as women characters when they can, but somehow okay to confuse male gamers into the same thing? It's trading one problem for the same exact problem on another foot.

 

 

There have been instances of females on the covers of games recently. The Tomb Raider reboot. Beyond Two Souls. Assassin's Creed Liberation. These games have done well financially and critically. I'm not arguing that the game would possibly debunk because it dared have a female. That's not what my position is at all.

 

But we're still perpetuating a cycle of ignorance about how the game works. You can play a guy. You can play a girl. You can play any of four fantasy races. You can be gruff and direct, or polite and passive. You can possibly choose to help mages or support Templars. You can play as hetero, ******, bi or pan sexual. Would putting a woman on the cover, which could lead to confusion on any of those options, be a better situation? Would it be any better than putting a guy on the cover, aside from a point of view of "catching up" for female gamers?

I get what you are saying. But the problem with that is that there ARE women out there who wouldn't see "ambiguous" as "possibly female". They'd read it as "male" because that is what advertising and the video game industry has taught us. If there isn't a woman on the cover who is clearly the protagonist, they're not an important aspect of the game.  So there are women who would pass it by. When you're trying to reach out to NEW consumers you want something that will flag them down, make them stop and look. Having a shadowy cloaked figure won't necessarily make you stop and look.

So, a game like Mass Effect or Dragon Age should celebrate the male/female options and split views or double sided boxes or reversible box art is a good way to do that in a way that might get NEW consumers to look at a game.

[GVulture]

I am not necessarily opposed to neutral marketing. (Yes, Origins had a dragon splatter...But DA: Kirkwall had DudeHawke.) I have a DA:2 poster and it has DudeHawke because there were no ladyHawke posters.

 

I think it's easy to say representation is a slippery slope and pretty soon the people who play some very low percentage combination of features is going to start demanding equal face time when you're already being represented. There's no stake in the fight, really. Dudes already have representation in Games. They have almost all of it. And when ladies do get a turn, they're usually highly sexualised to the point of ridiculousness.

 

So, yes, I think there needs to be a concerted effort to market games to women. To highlight female protags in game. To do something because the balance is so off, it's like putting a pebble on one side of a see-saw and the empire state building on the other.

The Blood Splatter Dragon also has a very visible and BA looking Morrigan front and center while Dragon Age II's cover art was basically chanting "BroHawke! BrrrrrrroHawke!"