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[Ryzaki]

My favorite FF female is Yuna though. :3

 

I haven't played FFx-2 completely (though the beginning makes me want to headdesk and I hate the combat so much).

[Brass_Buckles]

Games with female protags that sell badly are just poor games, end of story. Nothing to do with the gender of the protagonist. To think otherwise is plain misogynistic. When will the world stop blaming women for everything under the sun?

 

Remember Me wasn't that bad of a game, actually.  I actually own a copy (preordered it, because I'd heard about the character having a boyfriend etc. and being her own character and I thought YAY she can be her own person and doesn't have to be the Pretend Girlfriend of the presumed-male players--and guess what?  They took out any romantic scene at all and I'm nowhere near sure who her boyfriend was even supposed to be, if anyone).  The story of it was quite good, but unfortunately where it shone storywise and in some unique game mechanics, it was mostly a fighting game, and those are a dime a dozen.  If they'd focused more on memory remixing, and shaken up the gameplay more, and perhaps allowed you to do your own save games instead of autosaving and having to restart sections of the game every time you messed up, it would have been much better.

 

And I do think it would have been better if Nilin had been able to have her little romantic interlude with someone, but they cut it so that the presumed-straight-male player would not feel uncomfortable.  Apparently, publishers think all men must presume all female protagonists are their pretend-girlfriends.  This, according to the GameInformer article previewing Remember Me, wherein they had spoken with the game developers, and this was the reason given for having to take out Nilin's romance.  Maybe, just maybe, people would not have complained that she fell flat as a character if she'd been allowed to have her own romance etc. that would have driven her--you know, sort of like Ezio in Assassin's Creed is allowed to flirt and sleep around with everything that moves (to the point it annoyed me enough I finally quit playing most of the way through because I don't care how cute he might be, not everyone's going to throw herself at him begging to be slept with like right now--straight male fantasy much?).

 

Remember me is not a particularly poor game. Publishers clearly thought it was. There is an article about it. I don't think publishers are misogynistic. I think they are driven by profit. We can make all the assumptions we like, after all it costs us nothing. Publishers don't have that luxury.

 

No, Remember Me isn't a bad game, but, it also wasn't a great game, and the players didn't whine about the character being female.  They complained that it was too much samey brawling, and the protagonist wasn't altogether memorable (I thought she was, personally, due to her story), and that the memory remixing was actually really awesome (it was) and it would have been nice if there'd been more of that (it would have) and the fighting mechanics could have been shaken up some more.

Honestly it's a game I think that could have gotten away with not having brawling/fighting at all, and using other mechanics.  Basically, it wasn't precisely what had been advertised--the game was pitched as memory remixing, but it was mostly a brawler with a few memory remixing bits thrown in.  Your game isn't going to do that great if you pitch it as one thing and then it actually is something entirely else.  I enjoyed it anyway, but not as much as I would have if it had been more story-oriented, and less fighter-y.

 

You can pin failure on the game having a female protagonist, but it was not AAA, even though it was a nice-looking game, and it didn't really have all that much marketing that I saw, either.

 

And then there are games like Contrast (which was indie, and again not AAA), which offer up all kinds of unique gameplay and have a female protagonist!  I was watching that one like a hawk, and then I learned that the female protagonist flirted with the presumed-straight-male player, and that the game mechanics were horribly glitchy and the game was essentially broken.  If Contrast had been better developed, however, despite the flirty character (or maybe because of it?) it might have sold like wildfire, because word of mouth would have gotten around.

 

No, games don't fail solely because they have a female protagonist, or even partly because they have a female protagonist.  They fail because of broken gameplay, or poor writing, or poor marketing, or poor characterization, or not being what they were advertised to be in general--or any combination of flaws and problems.  You know, sort of like games with male protagonists.  And the fact that female protagonists are rarer in action/RPG type games (as opposed to things like Cookin' Mama) is a factor as well.  When so few of the big franchises are putting women characters as leads out there, you're left with the smaller and independent developers to do the job, and without the same budget, resources, etc., yes, their work isn't always going to shine as brightly.

 

On a positive note, though, I've noticed that a LOT of independent games have been being released on Steam with female leads, almost to the degree that it's a trend.  And guess what?  A lot of them seem to be really good games, and selling quite well.  I'm pretty sure that the big developers are going to notice this, and strive to outdo it.  Because, honestly?  Sure, a cute 2D pixel game with great gameplay and beautiful art is fine and dandy (and certainly IS my cup of tea, given my affinity for indie games), but I still want my AAA games too.  And I want at least the option to be a woman in them--and that is currently far, far too rare a thing.

[AkiKishi]

What dual lead?  Lightning Returns is a pretty awful game, but Lightning is absolutely the protagonist.

 

First part refers to XIII-2 where Sera and Noel share the protagonist role. 

[AkiKishi]

Well, I own the first two, but I've heard some really bad things about the third. I'm almost positive quality had more to do with the poor sales than any other factor.

 

People hate time limits. Even though the time limit is very forgiving and has very little impact (you can finish the game on day 2 except for certain daily quests) some people just hate time limits on principle. 

[SnakeCode]

My favorite FF female is Yuna though. :3

 

I haven't played FFx-2 completely (though the beginning makes me want to headdesk and I hate the combat so much).

I thought FFx-2 was terrible. Nothing to do with the protagonist(s) though. I just never really enjoyed the game itself.

[Ryzaki]

I thought FFx-2 was terrible. Nothing to do with the protagonist(s) though. I just never really ebjoyed the game itself.

It looks really bad compared to FFX HD. Also Rikku looks...so doofy in comparison.

 

And the storyline man :X FFX felt fine self contained.

[Tayah]

You know in his address to the GDC Manveer Heir actually dealt with female protagonists not selling and dismissed it because there isn't any real data you can use simply because the game budgets and marketing budgets of those games are far lower than those for male protag games. Until we get enough games with a comparable development and marketing budget the truth is you can't say that female protag games don't sell. You're not comparing equal products here it's more like selling sweets verses selling vegetables to children than selling the same thing. 

 

Also as others have said sometimes these games fail because they're simply not good in other areas and no protag would save them, not a male, not a female not even the cutest puppy dog or kitten in the whole wide world!  

 

I would be curious though as to what games made compared to the budgets that were spent on them by which I mean a quality game with a female protag be it tomb raider or other games like portal in comparison to what they spent how much did they make because you're looking at hard sale figures and saying they're failures but if they made back the budget spent and then a percentage of profit above it that's not actually a failure and they shouldn't be expected to make the same big numbers of a AAA game either. How much each makes as a percentage compared to the costs might be interesting though I don't know that the figures would be available for a large enough sample where they are for movies as Kaiser Wilhelm linked to earlier.

[AkiKishi]

I thought FFx-2 was terrible. Nothing to do with the protagonist(s) though. I just never really enjoyed the game itself.

 

FFX-2 is a bit disjointed. Definately lacks the story based progression of FFX. I would not go as far as terrible, except the chapter where you do nothing but look through cameras. I like anything with the Job system though.

[king jacky]

hmmmm interesting

[AkiKishi]

You know in his address to the GDC Manveer Heir actually dealt with female protagonists not selling and dismissed it because there isn't any real data you can use simply because the game budgets and marketing budgets of those games are far lower than those for male protag games. Until we get enough games with a comparable development and marketing budget the truth is you can't say that female protag games don't sell. You're not comparing equal products here it's more like selling sweets verses selling vegetables to children than selling the same thing. 

 

Also as others have said sometimes these games fail because they're simply not good in other areas and no protag would save them, not a male, not a female not even the cutest puppy dog or kitten in the whole wide world!

 

I would be curious though as to what games made compared to the budgets that were spent on them by which I mean a quality game with a female protag be it tomb raider or other games like portal in comparison to what they spent how much did they make because you're looking at hard sale figures and saying they're failures but if they made back the budget spent and then a percentage of profit above it that's not actually a failure and they shouldn't be expected to make the same big numbers of a AAA game either. How much each makes as a percentage compared to the costs might be interesting though I don't know that the figures would be available for a large enough sample where they are for movies as Kaiser Wilhelm linked to earlier.

 

My counter to that would be if people feel that strongly they would be buying the games regardless of quality just to make a point. Why would a publisher bother taking a risk when Ubisoft just proved you can roll out a protagonist like Aiden Pearce and top the charts anyway?

 

These are games which NEED to sell millions just to break even. 

[king jacky]

we all know women are the true hero's

[oceanicsurvivor]

My counter to that would be if people feel that strongly they would be buying the games regardless of quality just to make a point. Why would a publisher bother taking a risk when Ubisoft just proved you can roll out a protagonist like Aiden Pearce and top the charts anyway?

 

These are games which NEED to sell millions just to break even. 

 

Its doing well in pre-orders but Watch Dogs hasn't topped the charts just yet. And again, that has more to do with interest in new game mechanics then the protag, the game isn't selling because of Aiden, its selling because it could potentially offer something fresh. I get that Aiden is sorta a general game protagonist, and you're saying why should they deviate from that, but I really don't think he isn a selling point or a breaking point for most gamers.

[king jacky]

so any one notice two of the most strongest or manipulative women in theades are

[Darth Krytie]

we all know women are the true hero's

 

Are you being flippant? Or do you have something especially enlightening to add to the discussion?

[king jacky]

nope

[Brass_Buckles]

My counter to that would be if people feel that strongly they would be buying the games regardless of quality just to make a point. Why would a publisher bother taking a risk when Ubisoft just proved you can roll out a protagonist like Aiden Pearce and top the charts anyway?

 

These are games which NEED to sell millions just to break even. 

 

Your argument being that we should all buy crappy games just because they have female protagonists in them?

 

My counter-argument, then, is that if we did buy crappy, majorly flawed or generic, or not-that-good-but-just-okay games en masse solely for a female protagonist to bump up the sales numbers, then we'd be encouraging companies to push out more low-quality games because clearly that's what women like.

 

So no, that argument doesn't fly with me.  And I will also point out that if we were given equal representation and equal treatment in the gaming community in the first place, we would not even be having this discussion; there would already be an equal number of AAA games with female protagonists to those with male protagonists, or selectable/customizable protagonists, and the quality would be on an even spectrum.  As it is, we mostly get low quality or we get nothing.  And no, the solution is NOT to buy low-quality games, or games where the female protagonist exists only to appeal to straight male players--because then we'll just get more oversexualization and more low quality games.  The answer is for the big-name developers and publishers to make a push to have more important female characters in their franchises.

 

I don't even, at this point, care if representation comes in the form of completely nonhuman female protagonists, as long as the title is as major as, say, Mass Effect.  Give me a talking female shapeshifting cat or a female good-guy alien, or something.  I don't know.  'Cause seriously, even the cartoon talking animal games/cartoons almost always have male protagonists, and it doesn't send a good message to little boys OR little girls.  It's time that we said, no, it's not okay to exclude girls and women as heroes, and no, it's not okay to tell boys they can't play games/read books/watch movies with girl protagonists because that's not for them.  Oh wait, that may be because all the pink frilly stuff... well, we can make stuff in less gender coded colors, problem solved!

[king jacky]

so this makes me think will I be undermined for being  female character or wat 

[AkiKishi]

Its doing well in pre-orders but Watch Dogs hasn't topped the charts just yet. And again, that has more to do with interest in new game mechanics then the protag, the game isn't selling because of Aiden, its selling because it could potentially offer something fresh. I get that Aiden is sorta a general game protagonist, and you're saying why should they deviate from that, but I really don't think he isn a selling point or a breaking point for most gamers.

 

Aiden is what I would call a safe choice. Really no one has made a compelling arguement why it is in the publishers interests to deviate from that.It's clear that people have personal reasons. But I just don't see what is in it for the publisher.

[Brass_Buckles]

so this makes me think will I be undermined for being  female character or wat 

 

If you don't know what this thread is about, I recommend going back and reading the first few pages before posting.

[Allan Schumacher]

There were, but the burden of proof is on those that want change. I doubt Ubisoft care anymore than I do whether the protagonist of AC is male or female. But they care about the revenue the game makes and I can't blame them for that given the fairly poor sales of games with female protagonists.

 

I won't dispute that people draw this conclusion.  Do you think Remember Me did poorly because of the woman protagonist?

[AkiKishi]

Your argument being that we should all buy crappy games just because they have female protagonists in them?

 

 

Yes if having female representation is so important to you, that's exactly what I suggest. 

 

I would not call them crappy but I own the following.

 

Remember Me 

Lightning Returns 

Bayonetta 

Tomb Raider 

NOLF 

 

Although I would not hold them up as shining examples. I enjoyed playing them. 

[Lady Nuggins]

This all goes back to why it's important to see the female protagonist in games where a female protagonist is already an option.

 

This thread is not asking Bioware to make a game with exclusively female protagonists.  Bioware already makes games in which both male and female are options.  But by hiding this fact, they contribute to the exact thinking that AkiKishi is exhibiting: we don't see any AAA games with women on the cover, therefore it is a risk to make any games with women on the cover. 

[AkiKishi]

I won't dispute that people draw this conclusion.  Do you think Remember Me did poorly because of the woman protagonist?

 

Me personally ? I rather like Niin found her engaging and interesting I liked the game too. I'm aware of the article where the gamemakers were told to change her to a male for sales reasons. I'd defer to a publisher since I'd have thought they would put a lot more effort and consequently be more aware of what does and does not sell. 

 

As I said earlier in the thread. I bought the game, that's as far as my support can go. Putting myself in the publishers position where my actual money was on the line. I'd take the safe option unless I saw something compelling to change my mind.

[king jacky]

ok just went back and checked out some earlier post  

[Brass_Buckles]

Yes if having female representation is so important to you, that's exactly what I suggest. 

 

I would not call them crappy but I own the following.

 

Remember Me 

Lightning Returns 

Bayonetta 

Tomb Raider 

NOLF 

 

Although I would not hold them up as shining examples. I enjoyed playing them. 

 

You yourself say they aren't that good. And I DID buy Remember Me, as I posted previously, had you read my post.

Bayonetta is all about oversexualization, and no, I'm not going to throw money at something that turns my gender into catty sex objects who are all enemies with one another because "women amirite."  Bayonetta-the-character was designed based on what the male developers would have wanted in a girlfriend.  Enough said.  This would be like telling you to buy a game based on what a bunch of female developers wanted in a boyfriend, and to then feel comfortable playing that oversexualized male character as he hip-thrusted and posed his way through the game.

 

No, we should not buy subpar games solely because of the protagonist being female, because most of us aren't wealthy, if I had to guess.  I definitely know that I don't have the kind of cash to shell out for subpar games.  So, while I buy a handful with male protagonists, I mostly wait for games I expect to be really good, in which I can also choose my protagonist (because unfortunately most games which feature female-only leads, simply are not that good)--i.e. Dragon Age: Inquisition, Skyrim (though arguably it's not that good, I've spent many hours playing it, adding mods to it, etc.--not sure why the game draws me in despite the flat characters and not-so-stellar story, but it does, so there).  Most of the time, I don't preorder, I buy games on sale--but for DA:I (and Remember Me, which I expected to be great and just thought was "good"--so not disappointed but also a bit underwhelmed, I suppose?) I would preorder, because of my familiarity with Bioware games and because thus far it seems like it's going to be much better than DA2.

 

And it is precisely that reason--the fact that those of us who would be interested don't have millions of dollars lying around to spend on whatever we please whenever we please--that those games which enable a female lead as an option should display that option proudly, and let people know it's there.  People like myself with limited disposable income can't just go around throwing money at every game that comes out just because it might feature a woman.  And, if a game is particularly good and doesn't let us know it, we might pass it by as another generic male protagonist game, or another subpar game.