9318 réponses à ce sujet

[Mes]

But my rant aside you are correct the next generation will negate what we do 

 

 

1) the generation after ours will negate what we do
 

 

You guys seem very optimistic. Care to elaborate? Sometimes I find myself thinking that we as a society are moving backwards.

 

When I was 9 years old, I found a long winter coat I really liked when I was shopping. It so happened that it was in the girls section (oh noes). Before I had the chance to really try it on - I mostly just grabbed it off the rack - a store clerk came over, took it out of my hands, and explained to me that this was the girl section and that I needed to look for a coat in the boys section. When I said that I wanted that coat specifically, she proceeded to explain to me why I shouldn't cross dress. 

 

Oh boy. Makes you marvel at the stupidity of these people. Like logically, honestly, HOW can a piece of fabric be for girls if its sown one way, and for boys if its sown another way?? 

[AkiKishi]

You guys seem very optimistic. Care to elaborate? Sometimes I find myself thinking that we as a society are moving backwards.

 

 

Oh boy. Makes you marvel at the stupidity of these people. Like logically, honestly, HOW can a piece of fabric be for girls if its sown one way, and for boys if its sown another way?? 

 

Opposite. They mean that the next generation will undo whatever progress has been made. 

 

Very few things have inherent value. It's always about what the societal norm is. I still occasionally get hassle wearing a kilt at social functions.

[Darth Krytie]

RPGs are sort of unique in that regard. There are probably a lot of people who just look at a box cover see and advert and buy a game without actually knowing the details.I remember when Witcher came out there was a lot of controversy, but of course Witcher is an RPG telling the story of a specfic character in a number of ways. Rather than a specific type of character,

 

I don't think its so much that they don't want to give impression that you can play a female (or other race) character, but that they don't want to give the impression that it's a fixed character (which is what will happen if someone sees only that advert).They do spend a lot of money on this stuff, so they probably have more idea of what works and what does not,even if we don't agree with it.

 

 

So, to prevent the customer from assuming that there's a fixed character (by including ads w/ the female Inqusitor etc), it makes sense that they only have generic white dudebro in their ads? How does that even make sense?

[AkiKishi]

So, to prevent the customer from assuming that there's a fixed character (by including ads w/ the female Inqusitor etc), it makes sense that they only have generic white dudebro in their ads? How does that even make sense?

 

I don't think it does.But I've never spent millions researching the subject like advertising agencies and publishers do.I think it would be more accurate to say that if they are going to end up giving the impression of a fixed character, they would go the male route because of the audience.

 

My preference has always been for the Japanese method of shared protagonists. Whichever one you don't choose as as your PC , becomes an NPC and the dialogue though chosen by the player is delivered by the "party" as a whole. Each character gives you the same story from a different point of view Tales of Xillia and Atelier Escha would be the latest examples. While the Japanese tend to go for set appearance, there is nothing about the design that makes that a requirement.

 

Fire Emblem did something similiar with Erika and Ephraim,

 

It would be a bit like removing Hawke from DA2 and allowing the player the role of either Carver or Bethany. But not splitting them up in Chaper2.

[fdgvdddvdfdfbdfb]

The most successful off-topic thread in Bioware history

[fdgvdddvdfdfbdfb]

I don't think it does.But I've never spent millions researching the subject like advertising agencies and publishers do.I think it would be more accurate to say that if they are going to end up giving the impression of a fixed character, they would go the male route because of the audience.

 

My preference has always been for the Japanese method of shared protagonists. Whichever one you don't choose as as your PC , becomes an NPC and the dialogue though chosen by the player is delivered by the "party" as a whole. Each character gives you the same story from a different point of view Tales of Xillia and Atelier Escha would be the latest examples. While the Japanese tend to go for set appearance, there is nothing about the design that makes that a requirement.

 

Fire Emblem did something similiar with Erika and Ephraim,

 

It would be a bit like removing Hawke from DA2 and allowing the player the role of either Carver or Bethany. But not splitting them up in Chaper2.

I never like being more than one person in a game.

[Tayah]

RPGs are sort of unique in that regard. There are probably a lot of people who just look at a box cover see and advert and buy a game without actually knowing the details.I remember when Witcher came out there was a lot of controversy, but of course Witcher is an RPG telling the story of a specfic character in a number of ways. Rather than a specific type of character,

 

I don't think its so much that they don't want to give impression that you can play a female (or other race) character, but that they don't want to give the impression that it's a fixed character (which is what will happen if someone sees only that advert).They do spend a lot of money on this stuff, so they probably have more idea of what works and what does not,even if we don't agree with it.

The thing is they used to actually tell you on the box that you could customise gender and race and create your own character as you wanted and now they don't. In fact because when I'd first started finding games with the option to pick genders and races I made the mistake of seeing "customise your character and play as who you want to" on a box one day and bought a game, took it home, went through the tediously long install process and found that my customisation options were hair colour and did I want my male protag to have a beard or not. I took the game back and after that I see a game that looks interesting and then carefully check it out to see if it does match what it says it does. And that's where we run into trouble because many games these days (and maybe that was the start of the trend) don't tell you about your options if they even mention customisation at all.

 

With a set protag I expect that what you see on the box is what you get but with rpgs that don't have a set protag they seem to go out of their way to avoid the mention of other gender and racial choices sometimes and bound by flame is a good example of that. It's incredibly hard if you don't already know to find out that hey actually you can play and even have romances as a female from their advertising. At the moment the official DA I website does not mention you can choose your gender or race explicitly so anyone looking for those features aren't going to get clarification on the main website even... this baffles me.

 

So, to prevent the customer from assuming that there's a fixed character (by including ads w/ the female Inqusitor etc), it makes sense that they only have generic white dudebro in their ads? How does that even make sense?

Yes this. Also advertising the character creator and using that to show the different options within the one trailer would seem like it would show all the options including the generic white male and is the most accurate representation of what you're game means when it says "Become the Inquisitor" and "Play your way". Male and female representation plus races... yay! 

 

 

You guys seem very optimistic. Care to elaborate? Sometimes I find myself thinking that we as a society are moving backwards.

 

Oh boy. Makes you marvel at the stupidity of these people. Like logically, honestly, HOW can a piece of fabric be for girls if its sown one way, and for boys if its sown another way?? 

 

Opposite. They mean that the next generation will undo whatever progress has been made. 

 

Very few things have inherent value. It's always about what the societal norm is. I still occasionally get hassle wearing a kilt at social functions.

Actually I think this depends on what progress you're talking about. In terms of more representation for races, genders and even LGBT people in films and games it seems like they're a lot more open minded (or so one of the panelists said in one of the GDC advocacy talks) and because they're more used to seeing different races and cultures through the internet and so on they will maybe even expect that diversity. In terms of how they behave towards different people that gets trickier and becomes another reason for advocating for more respectful representation of all minorities in media not less.

 

 

The most successful off-topic thread in Bioware history

Shhh... it's a secret! 

[AkiKishi]

I never like being more than one person in a game.

 

Your not. The choice is made before the game starts. You don't switch between characters during the game. Although there are some games that allow you to do that.

 

 

For the record this is the first Atelier game to have a male protagonist (pretty sure Azoth of Destiny was spinoff) since all the Atelier games are named after the character.

[Bugsie]

Very few things have inherent value. It's always about what the societal norm is. I still occasionally get hassle wearing a kilt at social functions.

Why would they hassle you, kilts are cool.  They've always been cool, the modern version of which a symbol of Jacobite rebellion that told the English to go get stuffed.  Morons sound like they don't know awesome when a sporran hits them in the face.

[In Exile]

That is some sort of bullsh*t. I'm sorry you had to deal with that.

 

It didn't bother me. I just stomped my feet and made a scene until the clerk relented. I was only mentioning it because I remember the moment, and that coat was not gendered. It looked like a trench coat, was a bit puffier, and was all black. The idea that this thing was gendered is nuts, IMO. 

[HuldraDancer]

 

You guys seem very optimistic. Care to elaborate? Sometimes I find myself thinking that we as a society are moving backwards.

 

Well what I meant at least was the opposite of optimistic honestly though that is solely based on my narrow and rare experiences with other people mainly my family and few friends. I don't go out enough to see how its affecting strangers but I"m basing my limited observation on people like my little brother and both my little cousins, the youngest one I've mentioned on here before about how her parents put gender on everything including socks (yeah still not joking about the sock part either unfortunately) my little brother I'd rather not go into detail since I'm still his big sister and very protective of him that and I don't' want to sound like an insane conspiracy theorist. My other younger cousin however despite being raised in the same 'this is for boys and this is for girls' house that I was for the longest time is probably as far as I know more open minded about this stuff than myself since he actually goes into the real world and hangs out with other people but that's one person out of the three that I used and not a good ratio so yes I worry quite a bit, I worry more about beauty being the first check mark for women (as karushna5 put it earlier) and I worry about how LBGT people will be looked at as well. This worrying may be nothing since I'm looking at my own family but I still worry. I'm never an optimistic person truthfully, I expect the worst most of the time so maybe I can be pleasantly surprised later.

 

My dad was very pro me being how I want. My mom blamed him on some of my "social issues" but constantly by friends and family in social settings, there is a need to conform. Shaving, bras, make up, waxing. I care about comfort. Being comfortable. I am really low maintenance on myself.

And I am so tired of the necessity to be pretty, so very very tired. Like the first check mark of any woman is her beauty. And somehow she is lesser without it. I dont wear bras because they hurt when you take them off. And under a large mens t shirt or a sweater, my own sister acts like I am being pornographic. Random strangers approach me saying I would be pretty if I wore make up.

One person in college signed me up for counselor consultant because my lack of shaving meant I was depressed and not taking care of my body. The idea that women do this and men do this naturally is silly. Feminine and masculine I think are cultural signifiers than anything. It gets confusing

I agree I'm also a low maintenance person and I attempted to give up shaving once but the constant harassment I got from my family along with insults got to the point where I just started shaving again to shut them the hell up most of it from my grandmother telling me that 'No man will love you if you don't shave, unless your Russian suddenly you need to shave, women not shaving is disgusting, and there are medical reasons why women have to shave' Thanks grandma  I was surprised when I got it from my mother as well    I've seen it on the opposite end as well my father started to shave his chest and legs because he did not like the feel of the body hair during the summer and my grandmother and his current girlfriend insulted and berated him until he stopped and let the hair grow back. So yeah this standard of beauty thing is utter bullsh*t for both genders if I'd rather shave my head since I hate my hair constantly bothering me I should be able to without hearing 'No you're a woman and you'll never get a job if you shave your head who wants to look at a bald woman?' and if my father would rather shave off his body hair during the summer he should be able to do it in peace without having to hear 'what you turn gay after you get out of the joint?'

[HuldraDancer]

I always wanted an easy bake oven ;_;

 

I did have one at my mother's house which was the only place I used it at, and according to my rose colored glasses here it was an awesome thing to have could get cookies when mom wouldn't bake any   but it broke very quickly ^^;

[karushna5]

Yeah picking your battles on the front of not being pretty is hard. I will wear a bra when I talk to your husband, but not at home. I won't wear makeup unless its a special occasion. How about i cover my legs and thus you don't have to see my ugly hair that repulses you. I like sleeveless shirts but apparently a woman's hairy pits are unsightly to the point of random harassment. I have honestly tried to be girly for the social perks, but it sometimes feels like i am physically incapable of doing it. i try, but it isnt me. i could no more wear make up every day as become a talk Show host, meaning yes physically possible, but unlikely and undesirable.

[HuldraDancer]

Picking the battles is near impossible at least for me it is since my grandmother is relentless with things like that, I almost never wear shorts so shaving legs shouldn't be a problem and I prefer comfort over style but I guess that's still too much of a 'knife in her heart' for that God forbid I wear a light jacket for a chilly day that has a small discoloration on the sleeve might as well burn all my clothes then. I'm not sure what kind of arguments you get for being pressured into having to 'present yourself nicely' or 'act like your gender' but mine usually are 'if you respected yourself you would do these things without a thought' oh and my absolute favorite one 'it reflex's poorly on me if you go out like that' The only -only- reason I could see for someone getting on someone else about how they look is if the person they are getting on about hasn't been doing things like say showering or brushing their teeth you know hygiene things, things like make up and shaved legs? No if someone doesn't like it then they shouldn't' be looking no one is there to just look pleasing to someone else and it makes me see red whenever I hear that as a woman I am suppose to look nice and that I should smile more (I had a teacher tell me that in middle school while I was in near tears and I almost got up and left the building all together) or that in the case of my father that men can not want to do things like shave or keep nice hair or clip their nails without being called 'gay'.

[karushna5]

Wow, my family isnt that harsh, it has been better since I moved out. But yeah the expectation that it should be natural is frustrating. Before, it is treated like I am a slob who is stubborn. My friends parents once said I was a disrespectful person to look that way around them. And grown men have to tell their wives that I embarrass them.

As far as makeup, apparently applying fake minerals to your face is somehow supposed to be the core of my being. When I was a kid my mother would point to my ambivalence toward makeup as the reason I was ostracized. It is like a tug of war, and whenever my mother does visit she will recoil in revulsion and make jokes on my looks.

Even my lover has a hard time understanding why I cant put up the effort to make other people happy. And for work there has to be girly me, who has to expertly cover my non femininity. I go through more trouble to hide it then just be feminine, but. I cant.

[AkiKishi]

Even my lover has a hard time understanding why I cant put up the effort to make other people happy. And for work there has to be girly me, who has to expertly cover my non femininity. I go through more trouble to hide it then just be feminine, but. I cant.

 

Himono ona ? 

[HuldraDancer]

My father's side of the family tends to be more judgmental than my mother's side and I got stuck living with my father's side. I've only had my grandmother telling me that my looks disrespect and embarrass her but I have had a lot of people telling me that my refusing to dress up shows that I don't respect myself apparently. Especially teachers I got that from teachers and counselors a lot and was told i should wear make up and smile and put my hair since it would make me look just so pretty. Bleh   

 

I'll wear make up once in a great while but she makes even that unbearable since if I do small things like that once in a while she'll start praising me constantly and asking why I don't do this more often that I'd look so much better if I did etc. As rude as it sounds if she would just shut up and not make a big deal about my looks half of our arguments wouldn't happen but I already know its not going to happen hell even when I'm able to move out she made it clear she would 'check up' on me often to make sure I wasn't 'turning into a beer bellied man'

 

Things like that really make me fear having to work once I we get another car since I for the life of me can not do I just can't I have tried before but its impossible anything more than just the lightest bit of lip gloss makes my face itch and I haven't worn anything 'dressy' for a long time with good reason can't move in it can't breathe in it. I can't speak for romance partners though since I've yet to actually be with anyone I'm pretty sure it'll stay that way since I have a low BS tolerance for anyone that isn't family^^;

[Kaiser Wilhelm]

It didn't bother me. I just stomped my feet and made a scene until the clerk relented. I was only mentioning it because I remember the moment, and that coat was not gendered. It looked like a trench coat, was a bit puffier, and was all black. The idea that this thing was gendered is nuts, IMO. 

It was probably the buttons.  For a reason that I don't know and may have made sense at the time, men and women's coats button on different sides (rather, coats designed to be worn by men button on a different side than those designed to be worn by women).  I'm not going to research the reason.  For all I know, women could have effected (not affected) the differentiation.  I'm not a fashion apologist.  I'm just offering an explanation that makes the event slightly less ridiculous.

 

Non Sequitur: 

 

Until I see some more female inquisitor, I shall not rest.  Or, at least, I'll try to say something about it every day.  And when we're shown more female inquisitor and people are satisfied and we are victorious then... then... then I will have nowhere to go ;_;

[Char]

I used to get told off all the time for not wearing make up. All the comments of "you'd be so pretty IF" ...
If I stopped looking like myself, cheers!

I'm an E-cup and I can't cope with the jiggling so I couldnt go without a bra, but I envy people who do.
The comments about my appearance used to get to me a lot, but they just wash over me now- I wear makeup for special occasions, and I ditch my jeans if my partner asks really nicely, and I'm happy with that.

[karushna5]

Himono ona ?

Uh, no. More like, yes sir, this is my job so I put up a pretense but at home I can be myself. I go out with friends, have fun, but I think most girls are more laid back at home. i have girly friends, and when alone or around people they trust, most will "drink a beer, scratch their butt, grab potato chips," and make lewd jokes for no other reason then to make everyone else laugh.

The difference isnt how relaxed I am, but more how I present my gender.

[Kaiser Wilhelm]

"drink a bear"

That is an impressive feat of strength.

[karushna5]

That is an impressive feat of strength.

lol, fixed. Don't you know even the most delicate of women can open up a bear and drink their innards whole? Our secret power.

But more to the point, I think women are awesome when they are feminine, or masculine but i definitely feel that there is beauty for men and women that appeals personally and externally. What men like out of a beautiful female character, is not necessarily how a beautiful woman wants herself presented. Many people point out how muscley men of muscles TEND to appeal more to male power fantasy than a woman's ideal of a man in regards to looks.

 

That said, feminine women take the helm, what do you think is beautiful, pretty, empowering, or sexy in a character you want to play, but less shown by modern characters made for men?

[thehomeworld]

The thing is they used to actually tell you on the box that you could customise gender and race and create your own character as you wanted and now they don't. In fact because when I'd first started finding games with the option to pick genders and races I made the mistake of seeing "customise your character and play as who you want to" on a box one day and bought a game, took it home, went through the tediously long install process and found that my customisation options were hair colour and did I want my male protag to have a beard or not. I took the game back and after that I see a game that looks interesting and then carefully check it out to see if it does match what it says it does. And that's where we run into trouble because many games these days (and maybe that was the start of the trend) don't tell you about your options if they even mention customisation at all.

 

 

This is a great point, I'd forgotten about they use to state you could customize but not how. If BW is going to state on the game's back cover, in articles, and in ads they should aslo highlight the how you can customize by saying things like choose from 9 face types or tweak to make them turely unique, choose from 10 hair styles and an arry of colors, pick your gender and more! This way it gives a fast set up of how it's customizable. I too remember returning some games due to the very poor customizing options like 3 hair styles on a male only character when I thought I could pick female. It's misleading to just state the words customize your character becasue that has such a broad mental criteria for every player by spelling out even a bit of what you mean by that sentence and clairfying it you allow the customers to really to be on the same page as you (the devs).

[Lady Nuggins]

I don't think its so much that they don't want to give impression that you can play a female (or other race) character, but that they don't want to give the impression that it's a fixed character (which is what will happen if someone sees only that advert).They do spend a lot of money on this stuff, so they probably have more idea of what works and what does not,even if we don't agree with it.

 

I feel like they're backing off on giving an iconic face to the game, though, which is another reason why it seems strange that they aren't showing more diversity in the protags so far.  They have made him so deliberately generic that you can barely tell what he looks like under that helmet--except that he's a human white male.  That's why I find it odd that they aren't showing more than one kind of Inquisitor so far.  It seemed like a deliberate tactic to make the person underneath the helmet interchangeable with other kinds of people, but so far that hasn't been the case.

 

But more to the point, I think women are awesome when they are feminine, or masculine but i definitely feel that there is beauty for men and women that appeals personally and externally. What men like out of a beautiful female character, is not necessarily how a beautiful woman wants herself presented. Many people point out how muscley men of muscles TEND to appeal more to male power fantasy than a woman's ideal of a man in regards to looks.

 

That said, feminine women take the helm, what do you think is beautiful, pretty, empowering, or sexy in a character you want to play, but less shown by modern characters made for men?

 

Ooh, that's a huge question. The thing is that I want to play all kinds of women.  I want to play quiet farm girls who have never picked up a sword in their lives but learn to fight to protect their land.  I want to play morally grey anti-heroines who are hard and stoic but caring, who struggle to make the right choices.  I want buff militaristic women who can kill you seven ways in ten seconds.  I want to play sheltered princesses who are forced to save themselves from dragons and decide they love swords as much as they love big ruffly dresses.  I want ladies with tragic pasts (that DON'T include rape), ladies who kick butt just for the fun of it, ladies who never consider the idea that they can't do something just because they're a girl.

 

No matter how she looks, I don't want her objectified.  That means the camera can't pan over her breasts or linger on her butt--hello, Miranda.  Even if she's overtly sexy or flirty, she needs to have agency.  The game needs to remember that she's the protagonist, not the object of the male player's sexual desires.  Would she choose to dress herself in an unsupportive bra and impossible-to-run-in-heels?  No?  Then that's not enough agency.  Many women do like dressing up in a way that makes them feel pretty or sexy--but rarely at the expense of safety and comfort.  If a male character would get a badass trenchcoat and sneakers, then she'd better get the same.

 

I don't have one particular physical appearance that I wish to see, other than more variety.  Women only ever get to fit into one particular body type, whereas men, while they are also idealized somewhat, at least get a wider range.  

[Nefla]

lol, fixed. Don't you know even the most delicate of women can open up a bear and drink their innards whole? Our secret power.

But more to the point, I think women are awesome when they are feminine, or masculine but i definitely feel that there is beauty for men and women that appeals personally and externally. What men like out of a beautiful female character, is not necessarily how a beautiful woman wants herself presented. Many people point out how muscley men of muscles TEND to appeal more to male power fantasy than a woman's ideal of a man in regards to looks.

 

That said, feminine women take the helm, what do you think is beautiful, pretty, empowering, or sexy in a character you want to play, but less shown by modern characters made for men?

I like pink sparkly, frou-frou things, but that's just how I choose to decorate myself. Other people choose other decoration (tattoos, piercings, superhero T-shirts, etc...) or no decoration and come from every walk of life, every background, every level of education and physical prowess, and I want to see it all and be it all. In real life I am me but in a game I want to be more, I want to be the buff practical tomboy or the stoic, mysterious assassin, the seemingly harmless noble with a sharp wit and hidden agenda etc...What I HATE is when all female characters are pushed into background roles or even worse damsels or sex objects. I want female characters the same quality and depth as the male ones, characters that kids of both genders would look up to and want to be like. I want female characters who are simply what they are and not a tarted up male fantasy version. If she's a doctor make her a doctor and not a "sexy doctor" if you wouldn't treat a male character a certain way then I don't want the female ones treated that way either.

 

I feel like they're backing off on giving an iconic face to the game, though, which is another reason why it seems strange that they aren't showing more diversity in the protags so far.  They have made him so deliberately generic that you can barely tell what he looks like under that helmet--except that he's a human white male.  That's why I find it odd that they aren't showing more than one kind of Inquisitor so far.  It seemed like a deliberate tactic to make the person underneath the helmet interchangeable with other kinds of people, but so far that hasn't been the case.

 

 

Ooh, that's a huge question. The thing is that I want to play all kinds of women.  I want to play quiet farm girls who have never picked up a sword in their lives but learn to fight to protect their land.  I want to play morally grey anti-heroines who are hard and stoic but caring, who struggle to make the right choices.  I want buff militaristic women who can kill you seven ways in ten seconds.  I want to play sheltered princesses who are forced to save themselves from dragons and decide they love swords as much as they love big ruffly dresses.  I want ladies with tragic pasts (that DON'T include rape), ladies who kick butt just for the fun of it, ladies who never consider the idea that they can't do something just because they're a girl.

 

No matter how she looks, I don't want her objectified.  That means the camera can't pan over her breasts or linger on her butt--hello, Miranda.  Even if she's overtly sexy or flirty, she needs to have agency.  The game needs to remember that she's the protagonist, not the object of the male player's sexual desires.  Would she choose to dress herself in an unsupportive bra and impossible-to-run-in-heels?  No?  Then that's not enough agency.  Many women do like dressing up in a way that makes them feel pretty or sexy--but rarely at the expense of safety and comfort.  If a male character would get a badass trenchcoat and sneakers, then she'd better get the same.

 

I don't have one particular physical appearance that I wish to see, other than more variety.  Women only ever get to fit into one particular body type, whereas men, while they are also idealized somewhat, at least get a wider range.  

Totally agree!