197 réponses à ce sujet

[themikefest]

 Harbinger leaves by flying forward several feet off the ground, but in the control ending the reapers lift off vertically as well as Sovereign on Eden Prime.

[ImaginaryMatter]

I wonder why Coates never bothered approaching the beam, we sure could have used his help.

[Perpetual Nirvana]

I wonder why Coates never bothered approaching the beam, we sure could have used his help.

 

Because he was coordinating the attack.

 

The bigger issue I feel over Harbinger leaving is where the hell does he go? You never see him again.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Coates didn't approach the beam because he had a date in a slide show. I would have thought that Anderson would have coordinated the attack.

[CronoDragoon]

You can do things in movies and novels and in linear shooters that you can't do in a game like Mass Effect where you allow choices, unless you have the full squad involved and make the deaths random so that the player cannot meta-game the situation.

 

The only issue I see is a gameplay one, especially in RPGs, where a party member was heavily used and killing him/her inconveniences the player's strategic preferences.

[ImaginaryMatter]

Because he was coordinating the attack.

 

The bigger issue I feel over Harbinger leaving is where the hell does he go? You never see him again.

 

Wasn't the whole purpose of the ground assault to get into the beam though? Coordinate everyone that is left to renew the assault, it should be easier now that Harbinger is gone.

[Argolas]

I wonder why Coates never bothered approaching the beam, we sure could have used his help.

 

Because he was lying dead up the beam.

[themikefest]

Doesn't Anderson say we move forward at all costs. No retreat. And then just as Harbinger lands he say's we got to move. Apparently the we didn't include Coates and others.

[Perpetual Nirvana]

Wasn't the whole purpose of the ground assault to get into the beam though? Coordinate everyone that is left to renew the assault, it should be easier now that Harbinger is gone.

 

Which is what Coates would probably be busy doing. Remember there's still half of Hammer that hasn't reported in. There's a chance (slim chance mind you) that they're still out there. Someone needs to find them and coordinate a followup attack on the beam.

[von uber]

I want to know where all the tanks and artillery is.
The mako is an apc.

[themikefest]

Which is what Coates would probably be busy doing. Remember there's still half of Hammer that hasn't reported in. There's a chance (slim chance mind you) that they're still out there. Someone needs to find them and coordinate a followup attack on the beam.

From what Anderson says at the FOB, there's a few stragglers coming in, but the bulk of hammer has already reported in. 

[Han Shot First]

You don't casually kill off a character in a story. It's cheap and isn't good writing. You don't do it to a character that has played a significant role. You can kill off a "red shirt" (the Star Trek TOS designation for "the one who dies" -- aka new actor you've never seen before) very casually but never a significant character.

 

Even in GoT you just knew something bad was going to happen to the person. The foreshadowing is in between the lines.... unless King Joffrey is involved of course. 

 

It's like the Suicide Mission -- if you had all loyal squad mates, but still wanted to get rid of some, there was an easy way of getting rid of two to four of them. Note that I'm not sure of the 4: side with either Jack or Miranda; side with either Tali or Legion; have the loser of the J/M hold the barrier and have the character you don't like in that group, and send the loser of Tali/Legion through the vent.

 

Actually there would have been quite a bit of foreshadowing had Bioware opted to have some squadmate casualties be unavoidable (like Virmire) during either the Suicide Mission or the end of run of Mass Effect 3. 

 

In Mass Effect 2 the jump through the Omega Relay is repeatedly referred to as a suicide mission. Casualties are not only expected, but the mission is often referred to in terms that imply it is potentially a one way trip. Going into that mission completely unspoiled, it was actually bigger surprise to have not lost anyone than it would have been to sustain casualties. Of course in retrospect the final misson is poorly named, because it isn't a suicide mission at all, but that isn't how it is presented in the thirty-some hours or so leading up to it.

 

Mass Effect 3 also did not lack for foreshadowing. Between the emotional Priority: Earth farewells and romance dialogue like, "There will be casualties, I just wonder how many" it would not have come as a shock if squadmates had died in the end run. 

[von uber]

Very true. My first suicide run I lost Grunt (I was more annoyed than upset as I had worked hard to make sure no-one would die). I was expecting worse in ME3 but lost no-one. Very odd.

[Jukaga]

Very true. My first suicide run I lost Grunt (I was more annoyed than upset as I had worked hard to make sure no-one would die). I was expecting worse in ME3 but lost no-one. Very odd.

Just curious, how did you lose Grunt? Did you give him a fire team or something or did you go in with him disloyal? My first run I lost Thane (vents) and disloyal Legion (escort). I can't recall if Samara died, she was my first fire team leader.

[von uber]

Nah fire team leader

[Reorte]

Actually there would have been quite a bit of foreshadowing had Bioware opted to have some squadmate casualties be unavoidable (like Virmire) during either the Suicide Mission or the end of run of Mass Effect 3. 

 

In Mass Effect 2 the jump through the Omega Relay is repeatedly referred to as a suicide mission. Casualties are not only expected, but the mission is often referred to in terms that imply it is potentially a one way trip. Going into that mission completely unspoiled, it was actually bigger surprise to have not lost anyone than it would have been to sustain casualties. Of course in retrospect the final misson is poorly named, because it isn't a suicide mission at all, but that isn't how it is presented in the thirty-some hours or so leading up to it.

 

Mass Effect 3 also did not lack for foreshadowing. Between the emotional Priority: Earth farewells and romance dialogue like, "There will be casualties, I just wonder how many" it would not have come as a shock if squadmates had died in the end run. 

In both cases everyone is going into a very dangerous situation, so of course the characters are going to expect a likely chance of casualties (and getting through without them isn't terribly plausible). That's quite different from saying that anything is inevitable. Foreshadowing isn't a blunt tool that implies some sort of clairvoyance on a character. For example killing a character who's said "I don't think I'll come out of this" and claiming you were just foreshadowing his death doesn't work (unless he's supposed to be some sort of seer).

[Reorte]

Very true. My first suicide run I lost Grunt (I was more annoyed than upset as I had worked hard to make sure no-one would die). I was expecting worse in ME3 but lost no-one. Very odd.

I lost Legion in the vents thanks to Miranda not being loyal but fireteam leader. I hadn't realised what loyalty meant for the game. I was expecting, in Miranda's case, that she would have to decide between Cerberus and Shepard at some point but when it came down to a dangerous job that had her life and Cerberus's mission on the line I expected her to be professional enough to do her job. I couldn't work out what I'd actually done wrong, since there was no obvious sign that Miranda was responsible.

 

I rather stupidly chose Thane as second fire team leader, thinking "experienced guy", overlooking the obvious "but not at leading a team."

[themikefest]

From what I remember of my first time playing ME2, I basically crashed and burned. 

 

My next playthrough was a lot more successful

[Jukaga]

 

 

I rather stupidly chose Thane as second fire team leader, thinking "experienced guy", overlooking the obvious "but not at leading a team."

My logic in choosing Thane for the vents was sound; that's how I met him and he confirmed he had experience in the area. Samara as fire team leader? Well I figured a thousand years of experience would help, of course I didn't consider that it was a thousand years as a lone wolf paladin. Legion I expected to die, and I was okay with that.

[AlanC9]

In both cases everyone is going into a very dangerous situation, so of course the characters are going to expect a likely chance of casualties (and getting through without them isn't terribly plausible). That's quite different from saying that anything is inevitable. Foreshadowing isn't a blunt tool that implies some sort of clairvoyance on a character. For example killing a character who's said "I don't think I'll come out of this" and claiming you were just foreshadowing his death doesn't work (unless he's supposed to be some sort of seer).

 

I think what Han Shot First was getting at is that the SM misled people about Bio's design style, not the story per se. God knows we've had plenty of people post about how the SM should have been the model for ME3 precisely because you can get out of it with zero casualties. We're agreeing that there's a mismatch between the SM and ME3 -- we just don't think that the SM model is all that good.

[Han Shot First]

In both cases everyone is going into a very dangerous situation, so of course the characters are going to expect a likely chance of casualties (and getting through without them isn't terribly plausible). That's quite different from saying that anything is inevitable. Foreshadowing isn't a blunt tool that implies some sort of clairvoyance on a character. For example killing a character who's said "I don't think I'll come out of this" and claiming you were just foreshadowing his death doesn't work (unless he's supposed to be some sort of seer).

 

Shepard saying "There will be casualties. I just wonder how many" would be an example of foreshadowing if there were casualties during the end run. Foreshadowing can include supernatural elements or clairvoyance, but it isn't a requirement. As an example, when Juliet tells her mother in Romeo and Juliet that she'd rather die than marry someone else, it foreshadows her fate.

 

When people say they'd want character deaths to be foreshadowed, what do they mean exactly? Do they mean dialogue? Or are they referring to something like the beginning of Game of Thrones, when Ned and his sons find the corpses of the dire wolf and stag that killed each other, foreshadowing Ned and Robert's deaths?

 

I'm not sure if the latter could be pulled off in an RPG unless a specific character was locked in to die in all playthroughs (like Thane) and player choices could neither save him or cause another character to die in his stead.

[JeffZero]

I like the idea of missions repeatedly referenced as unavoidably grim delivering on that statement a lot more than getting a thousandth sense of "I am a special superhero" I think I would suffer if I ever completed the Suicide Mission without losing anyone. So I've never gone that route and I never will.

As much as I dig the presentation for the most part, I think the SM honestly bugs me more than ME3's endgame, because not only is it stupid easy to fly in the face of what my personal preferences are about that kind of gig, there's also the crummy fact that all of those potential squadmate deaths in ME2 have been directly referenced by the writers as maybe an unfortunate move in retrospect, because it really gimped their ideas on how far they could take some of those characters going forward.

Except for Garrus and Tali because Garrus and Tali but whatevs, I don't lose sleep over it.

I mostly like the presentation in all three games' finales (although would it have killed them to make Earth a smidge more unique in its back half...?) but in order to satisfy my darker tendencies I have to come up with half-assed "logic" for giving Zaeed control of a fire team and pretend Miranda didn't point out the obvious flaw in Jacob's plan or... something. It's tough being me, you see.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Shepard saying "There will be casualties. I just wonder how many" would be an example of foreshadowing if there were casualties during the end run. Foreshadowing can include supernatural elements or clairvoyance, but it isn't a requirement. As an example, when Juliet tells her mother in Romeo and Juliet that she'd rather die than marry someone else, it foreshadows her fate.

 

When people say they'd want character deaths to be foreshadowed, what do they mean exactly? Do they mean dialogue? Or are they referring to something like the beginning of Game of Thrones, when Ned and his sons find the corpses of the dire wolf and stag that killed each other, foreshadowing Ned and Robert's deaths?

 

I'm not sure if the latter could be pulled off in an RPG unless a specific character was locked in to die in all playthroughs (like Thane) and player choices could neither save him or cause another character to die in his stead.

 

Indeed. I don't believe that foreshadowing would work here in this case all the time. And I'm fine with sudden character deaths. Things look like they're going to be fine, then BAM! Reaper kills them. Sort of on the same level as Gandalf in the 'Fellowship of the Ring'. Looks like he's going to escape, but then gets pulled down by the Balroq. 

[Reorte]

Shepard saying "There will be casualties. I just wonder how many" would be an example of foreshadowing if there were casualties during the end run. Foreshadowing can include supernatural elements or clairvoyance, but it isn't a requirement. As an example, when Juliet tells her mother in Romeo and Juliet that she'd rather die than marry someone else, it foreshadows her fate.

I know it usually seems to work like that, I'm just saying that I don't like it. Juliet saying she'd rather die for example opens up the possibility of her being willing to die but it shouldn't really leave the impression that she will - just that if she ends up in that situation then she might. I don't want to be given the impression that anyone knows what will happen in the future - hence "We're going to lose people" shouldn't tell me that we really are going to, beyond what might be expected anyway, and characters reacting realistically to a dangerous situation ahead. How I feel foreshadowing should work is seeing events happening now that set up things that'll happen later in the plot, even if their significance isn't obvious at the time.

 

My "claivoyant" part is that it's sometimes written  as if a character is clairvoyant, even if they're not - "I've a feeling I'm not going to come out of this", bam, they're dead, and that was supposed to be foreshadowing. I had a feeling a presentation I had to give the other day was going to be a disaster but as it turned out it went OK.

 

 

When people say they'd want character deaths to be foreshadowed, what do they mean exactly? Do they mean dialogue? Or are they referring to something like the beginning of Game of Thrones, when Ned and his sons find the corpses of the dire wolf and stag that killed each other, foreshadowing Ned and Robert's deaths?

Definitely not. That's the sort of thing I really hate. I've a very realist approach to fiction (fantasy elements that get established as being real in- universe excepted).

[MegaIllusiveMan]

I'd like to know why that beam was set up in the first place.

 

In game is explained. They are transporting humans to the Citadel to make new Reapers (Is that right?)

 

What's funny about that is for fun I decided to walk to the beam instead of running. Harbinger hit me at least 10 times(I stopped counting after 10) and its only the last one that seriously injures Shepard. Go figure. 

 

Yah, there is this. If you just stay frozen in your spot, Harbinger won't even shoot you or close to you.

 

@OP: Well, IMHO, Harbinger was focusing more on Every Trooper. Even one Person could make the difference. Imagine if 10, 15(Or something like that) soldiers got to the beam because he was just focusing on Shepard. So, he could be aiming at the other ones and the laser didn't directly hit Shepard.

 

Oh, and I think that Harbinger flew away because he tried to stop the Fleets from Docking the Crucible, because "everyone" [running to the beam] was dead or retreating. Harbinger should've double-Checked it.