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[StephenFulford]

This thread is going to be for discussing the genophage decision, a very interesting and difficult topic suggested by Bahoogasmif.

 

The central part of the debate focuses on several arguments for and against, and depending on the weight an individual assigns to each argument, they make a decision.
 Below are the most common arguments for and against that I've seen floating around, as well as input from myself.

 

For the genophage

- The aggressive nature of the krogan would lead to another war with the only solution being genocide one way or another. Their strength mixed with their instable government makes them too dangerous to be trusted without checks and balances.

- The genophage would not be killing their species if they didn't react the way they did. If Wrex continued with his plans and united the krogan people with a plan for sharing females, the krogan people would stabilize and even grow on par with other species.

- The krogan are too important for fighting the war against the Reapers, so give them what they want.

- It can not be said that the krogan would rejoice and receive the cure not seeking revenge. To expect them of such is to assume a human reaction, when they are indeed not human

 

Against the genophage

- The krogan deserve a second chance, especially under a capable leader like Wrex

- It was unfair for the salarians to have uplifted them prematurely when they could have been in a cultural renaissance if they hadn't been given space-age tech.

- The genophage has killed millions if not billions of unborn children and is morally wrong

- The salarian aid is more important because it aids in building the Crucible

- No matter what the genophage should be doing to stabilize their population, the reality is that it is killing them off. The extinction of any sentient species should never be considered a viable option, and some solution should be made to remedy this.

- Think of Wrex. How could you betray your friend.

 

So these are the best arguments that I have heard for either side, though I don't consider every argument to be valid. If you have your own piece to share, you want to stress the importance of any argument or add another point of reflection for the discussion, then please make your stand.

 

As much as I believe the genophage has moral difficulty, I do believe it is necessary for the stability of the galaxy. I generally take a stance for the genophage, though sometimes I just want to see Wrex happy >_>

[Derpy]

Just cure it. It will not effect any of the next games they produce. Plus who would ever shoot Mordin?

[Tankobite]

Personally I'd like a bit more info.  Some of what we know is a bit contradictory

[Tom80]

The birth rate of the Krogans is a problem.

 

"Krogan birthcontrol now available !!!"

[Bahoogasmif]

Well look, after the war every other race will be so severely depleted population wise that even colonization probably wouldn't be feasible. Yet the krogan can replenish those numbers long before council races. I'll grant you that wrex can keep them under his hold, but for how long? A hundred years more maybe before he's too old to stop the up and comers from dethroning him.

 

So it seems to me that unless another krogan who had Wrex's mentality takes his place, tensions will rise. I might not be war, as the other races will be united still and thus doomed from the start, but eventually they will have the numbers to, 'try again' as it were.

[Hyraz]

With the circumstance of complete annihiilation on the frontier, choosing to cure the genophage and risking overpopulation can be considered less of a threat since victory over the Reapers isn't guaranteed in the first place. In my eyes it'd be more of a moral boost for the entire Krogan race which would help win the grand war at hand.

 

Although if we're to put ourselves in a time where the Reapers are still lurking beyond the dark and have yet to reveal their presence, I'd steer towards keeping (or issuing) they genophage. Sometimes, to achieve greatness (in this case, galactic stability and/or prosperity) you have to make sacrifices.

 

Largest population in the galaxy + fiercesome personality in most of these people isn't something you want on your galaxy's doorstep. If grown out of hand and they indeed do wage war, they would pretty much be a parallel to the Reapers. Which I find slightly amusing when thinking of their "Synthetics will inevitably destroy all organics." phrase.

[StephenFulford]

I think that's a fair stance, but I would be thinking about the future beyond. That would sort of be like uplifting the krogan to face the rachni without the foresight for the rebellions that took place after, except we're more certain of another krogan attempt at galactic conquest. When the other species are devestated after the war, the krogan will have the easiest time recovering.

 

Depending on Wrex is very shortsighted, in my opinion. I believe Mordin's defense against Shepard saying that they would rejoice is the best response. Namely, we cannot expect a "human" response. Krogan compassion and empathy isn't culturally ingrained like it is in other species. Upsetting the balance of power in their favour is extremely dangerous.

 

I also think that the krogan are the best hope in a conventional battle against the Reapers. Unfortunately, if victory against the Reapers comes at the cost of having the galaxy overrun by krogan, then it's not really a victory. I wrote an informal paper on some ideas peripherally relating to this argument here. I had it posted in the old grew, but I think Sneaky was the only one who read it.

 

I also find the Reapers' phrase "Synthetics will inevitably destroy all organics." head-scratching. The krogan will not inevitably create synthetics (I'm pretty sure), and having them take over would arguably be worse if not really similar.

[Bahoogasmif]

well a united council would be able to stop them again I should think, as krogan don't yet have any ships, scientists or ways to prevent genophage 1.5 from happening. So to me, the simple threat of "We can do it again if you get out of line would woo most of the krogan populace into submission on the rebellion subject. That and wrex might well begin putting in place things like schools and such that would teach why the new generation should not repeat the past. That won't stop a few krogan from trying, but they wouldn't get the support of the entire race like last time.

[StephenFulford]

I don't think it would deter them though, and what's stopping them from tearing down the shroud? Moreover, it's very unlikely that the krogan would ever have any sort of school programming for their children. Their culture seems to demand a simpler mentorship where abstract ideas would not flourish because they just don't give any value to schools of thought that aren't directly practical.

 

If the krogan overpopulate again, they would surely seek to spread to new worlds. They weren't necessarily united for some cause of conquest, but simply out of necessity for their swelling numbers, which the lack of a genophage would surely lead to again. The krogan can also build their own ships as they once had a powerful fleet before the rebellions consisting of many dreadnoughts. With the krogan united under a single leader, namely wrex or his successor, they could easily rebuild that fleet.

 

I'm just trying to point out that it is extremely risky to leave a threat to keep the krogan in check, especially when the krogan respond to threats the way they do. I would bet a warlord would see it as more of challenge than a deterrent. Mordin's team did thorough studies and concluded that the genophage was necessary, and I'm sure they would have taken all of this into consideration.

 

Besides, the genophage shouldn't kill off the krogan species if Wrex's plan of sharing females is put into action. It's designed to stabilize their birthrates to pre-uplift amounts. They could live like everyone else, and perhaps rebuild at a regular rate on a planet other than Tuchanka (because it's a wasteland).

[Khelish]

I'm undecided on this topic.

[Hyraz]

I also think that the krogan are the best hope in a conventional battle against the Reapers. Unfortunately, if victory against the Reapers comes at the cost of having the galaxy overrun by krogan, then it's not really a victory. I wrote an informal paper on some ideas peripherally relating to this argument here. I had it posted in the old grew, but I think Sneaky was the only one who read it.

 

It's a ball of wax, that's for sure.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think the Krogan would have enough time to breed for the Reaper war if the shroud's sabotage was disassembled by the time of ME3. Unless they are vastly quicker at giving birth compared to humans.

 

Which leaves one possibility as I see it to have pre-bred them, but there wasn't any way the galaxy could have anticipated the Reapers back then, assuming it'd be a century or two required.

 

Anyway, speaking solely of the genophage without taking the Reapers into account, it's a difficult topic to establish any firm answer to. In the end it boils down to ethics. If the galaxy was soft-hearted and let their breeding continue, they would pay for their naivete sooner or later. Not all choices are about what's right, but what is necessary. As sad as that is.

 

I think the Krogan would have to prove themselves to the greater galaxy that they'd be trustworthy following the rebellions, and it'd take a long time, if it ever happens at all. Their ways are too strongly branded, and even if the Krogan today aren't the perpetrators of the rebellions, their culture still pretty much seems the same.

 

I don't think the Krogan's nature will ever change and thus they'll keep bringing on themselves more of the same reason the genophage was created in the first place.

[StephenFulford]

They are vastly quicker at breeding and maturing than humans:

 

"Prior to the genophage, krogan could reproduce and mature at an astonishing rate. Females are known to produce clutches of up to 1,000 fertilized eggs over the course of a year."

 

If you think about the fact that only one and a thousand or so lives through childbirth and that this is supposed to stabilize their children, they must be able to reproduce at about 1000x the rate of humans and with increased rates of maturity. Whether or not they can breed fast enough is difficult to determine, but in the argument it's based on the interest the Reapers appear to have in the krogan and the supposition by Vigil that the Reapers stayed for centuries.

 

I'd also like to point out the context of the decision in the game. Shepard has no option to support the Dalatrass. Also, Shepard cannot demonstrate the foresight of a proper argument for the genophage. Since Shepard doesn't, the decision sets itself up to be one where you need to deceive Wrex and the krogan. There is no option to deny the krogan and reason with the turians some other solution to their problem. That's why I generally cure the genophage in my own playthroughs. I would have approached the entire problem differently, but I am a man of my word and so is my Shepard. So if I say to Wrex I'll cure the genophage, I will. The game of course makes me say it.

 

There's a little more I wanted to add, but I've got to go to class.