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Killing Padok vs killing Mordin


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#1
cap and gown

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It was interesting to note the differences between killing Padok Wiks and killing Mordin.

 

I was thinking the animations of Mordin crawling towards the terminal would be repeated, but they weren't. Instead, Padok dies while still in the elevator. He doesn't have any dialogue after he is shot, he merely gasps in pain. Another difference was the use of music as we drove away from the Shroud. In the case of Mordin that scene is completely silent, not so with Wiks.

 

Something that was repeated was Shepard throwing away the gun. Some people have said that this gesture helped symbolize Shepard's throwing away his/her freindship with Mordin since it is the same gun Mordin gives Shepard when they first meet. Perhaps. But it is the same gun and same animation with Wiks as it is with Mordin.

 



#2
ImaginaryMatter

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It was interesting to note the differences between killing Padok Wiks and killing Mordin.

 

I was thinking the animations of Mordin crawling towards the terminal would be repeated, but they weren't. Instead, Padok dies while still in the elevator. He doesn't have any dialogue after he is shot, he merely gasps in pain. Another difference was the use of music as we drove away from the Shroud. In the case of Mordin that scene is completely silent, not so with Wiks.

 

Something that was repeated was Shepard throwing away the gun. Some people have said that this gesture helped symbolize Shepard's throwing away his/her freindship with Mordin since it is the same gun Mordin gives Shepard when they first meet. Perhaps. But it is the same gun and same animation with Wiks as it is with Mordin.

 

I always thought there was some significance to the Carnifex showing up, since it was one of the very few times that it isn't the Predator pistol.



#3
Han Shot First

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Something that was repeated was Shepard throwing away the gun. Some people have said that this gesture helped symbolize Shepard's throwing away his/her freindship with Mordin since it is the same gun Mordin gives Shepard when they first meet. Perhaps. But it is the same gun and same animation with Wiks as it is with Mordin.

 

Actually you don't have to kill Mordin or Padok for Shepard to throw away the gun. You just need Shepard to draw his gun on either one and threaten them. If you decide to play it as Shepard bluffing, and then have Shepard stand down after the bluff is called, Shepard will toss the gun aside while walking away. Mordin or Padok than goes on to cure the genophage. With Mordin he'll give Shepard a respectful nod rather than saying the seashells line before riding the elevator up.

 

Few people seem to play out that scene that way, but it might be my favorite version. 



#4
teh DRUMPf!!

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Actually you don't have to kill Mordin or Padok for Shepard to throw away the gun. You just need Shepard to draw his gun on either one and threaten them. If you decide to play it as Shepard bluffing, and then have Shepard stand down after the bluff is called, Shepard will toss the gun aside while walking away. Mordin or Padok than goes on to cure the genophage. With Mordin he'll give Shepard a respectful nod rather than saying the seashells line before riding the elevator up.

 

Few people seem to play out that scene that way, but it might be my favorite version. 

 

Wiks makes the same gesture as well.



#5
ImaginaryMatter

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Actually you don't have to kill Mordin or Padok for Shepard to throw away the gun. You just need Shepard to draw his gun on either one and threaten them. If you decide to play it as Shepard bluffing, and then have Shepard stand down after the bluff is called, Shepard will toss the gun aside while walking away. Mordin or Padok than goes on to cure the genophage. With Mordin he'll give Shepard a respectful nod rather than saying the seashells line before riding the elevator up.

 

Few people seem to play out that scene that way, but it might be my favorite version. 

 

It is the worlds longest Renegade interrupt though, except for maybe that part in Mordin's LM with the clan speaker guy.



#6
SporkFu

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I could never kill Mordin at his moment of glory. Better to have him die during the suicide mission. Wiks, he's cool to talk to but he's not-Mordin.



#7
Daemul

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It should be noted that if you carry the Paladin, it will replace the Carnifex in that scene.

#8
Jukaga

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I still wish we had the chance to question Mordin and Wrex on the utter insanity of a condition-free universal cure. ME2 Wrex and Mordin NEVER would have gone along with the cure as presented. Maybe Wrex because while cunning, he is quite stupid for not seeing how he is destroying his power base. But Mordin knows better; every bid of data and study on curing the 'phage led to a second rebellion and genocide for the Krogans. The fact that the EC shows everything is fine is just a hand-wave.

 

There should have been a third option; a managed cure, certainly not a universal one. In fact the 'cure' should never had restored full fertility to the Krogan it's simply an unsustainable birth rate even with unlimited expansion. Even a 10% fertility rate would fill Tuchanka up within 20 years.



#9
ImaginaryMatter

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It should be noted that if you carry the Paladin, it will replace the Carnifex in that scene.

 

I can see that. The Paladin is just a white Carnifex.



#10
cap and gown

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There should have been a third option; a managed cure, certainly not a universal one. In fact the 'cure' should never had restored full fertility to the Krogan it's simply an unsustainable birth rate even with unlimited expansion. Even a 10% fertility rate would fill Tuchanka up within 20 years.

 

Krogan fertility rates are flat out absurd for a sentient species, full stop. Our ability to learn a language may be because of our genes, (nature) but learning any particular language (say English) is a matter of nurture. Yet with 1000 babies per year per female there is no possibility of nurture. There are two variations of species that have that many children: (a)  have lots of babies, provide no nurture, and hope some survive (coral, many types of fish, many types of insect) or ( b ) one female has lots of babies, most of whom are sterile, and who provide the nurture (ants, termites). Unless there is a tear in the space-time continuum, there is no way for one female to provide nurture to 1000 babies in a year. That is THREE BABIES A DAY!

 

Then on top of this the writers try to pull on our heart strings by providing non-sensical pictures/dialogue. Like when Eve talks about holding her still born baby in her arms. Umm, Eve, you would have had to hold a few hundred still born babies in your arms if you had been fertile. (It was at that point in this playthrough that my determination to destroy the Krogan, and vicariously the non-sensical writing about them, was solidified.)



#11
Han Shot First

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Krogan fertility rates are flat out absurd for a sentient species, full stop. Our ability to learn a language may be because of our genes, (nature) but learning any particular language (say English) is a matter of nurture. Yet with 1000 babies per year per female there is no possibility of nurture. There are two variations of species that have that many children: (a)  have lots of babies, provide no nurture, and hope some survive (coral, many types of fish, many types of insect) or ( b ) one female has lots of babies, most of whom are sterile, and who provide the nurture (ants, termites). Unless there is a tear in the space-time continuum, there is no way for one female to provide nurture to 1000 babies in a year. That is THREE BABIES A DAY!

 

Then on top of this the writers try to pull on our heart strings by providing non-sensical pictures/dialogue. Like when Eve talks about holding her still born baby in her arms. Umm, Eve, you would have had to hold a few hundred still born babies in your arms if you had been fertile. (It was at that point in this playthrough that my determination to destroy the Krogan, and vicariously the non-sensical writing about them, was solidified.)

 

A lot of elements of the story aren't well thought out. Just like the bit about humanity being special because our amazing genetic diversity....



#12
Jukaga

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Krogan fertility rates are flat out absurd for a sentient species, full stop. Our ability to learn a language may be because of our genes, (nature) but learning any particular language (say English) is a matter of nurture. Yet with 1000 babies per year per female there is no possibility of nurture. There are two variations of species that have that many children: (a)  have lots of babies, provide no nurture, and hope some survive (coral, many types of fish, many types of insect) or ( b ) one female has lots of babies, most of whom are sterile, and who provide the nurture (ants, termites). Unless there is a tear in the space-time continuum, there is no way for one female to provide nurture to 1000 babies in a year. That is THREE BABIES A DAY!

 

Then on top of this the writers try to pull on our heart strings by providing non-sensical pictures/dialogue. Like when Eve talks about holding her still born baby in her arms. Umm, Eve, you would have had to hold a few hundred still born babies in your arms if you had been fertile. (It was at that point in this playthrough that my determination to destroy the Krogan, and vicariously the non-sensical writing about them, was solidified.)

 

I can tell you if it wasn't for Wrex and Grunt's homerun in the Citadel DLC, I'd never cure the phage again. It's gotten to the point that in my ME2 plays these days Grunt stays in the tank unless I'm planning a cure-run in ME3. I hate getting all buddy buddy with Grunt when I know I'm going to condemn his species to oblivion.


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#13
congokong

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Is there a question in here somewhere?

 

The changes are obvious. Players knew Mordin. Players barely knew Padok. Mordin crawling to the controls was more dramatic but with Padok, the character you only knew a few missions, was "why bother?"

 

Shepard is disgusted with shooting an ally either way.

 

I never felt too bad about Mordin's death personally. His 180 on the genophage was jeopardizing the galaxy to soothe his conscience.



#14
Jukaga

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I never felt too bad about Mordin's death personally. His 180 on the genophage was jeopardizing the galaxy to soothe his conscience.

 

I agree. Though people are allowed to change their minds, it would have been better if Shepard could have challenged Mordin and Wrex on their complete insanity.



#15
congokong

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Since people are discussing whether the genphage should be cured I say no.

 

http://social.biowar...17881795-1.html

 

But a poster on an old forum also explained it beautifully.

 

 

 

PirateMouse said:

 

Well, since this thread has risen from its grave, I will reiterate my own take on this, which is very similar actually to Dean's: to wit, hell no I wouldn't cure it, and in fact I'd go to the same extreme lengths I went to in order to stop the Reapers to prevent a cure, because it's a similarly galaxy-level threat.  I wouldn't even cure it if krogan culture changed, because honestly I don't care what your culture is like, 1,000 viable births per year times about 1,000 years per krogan female with each offspring living potentially around 1,000 years as well is a recipe for unqualified, unmitigated disaster the likes of which we cannot truly even properly comprehend.

At most, I would consider a reworking of the genophage, but that was never given in-game as an option.  Frankly, I would wipe out every single last krogan before I'd outright cure the genophage if for some reason those were my only two options ... because that would ultimately be a choice between genocide of one species (krogans) or genocide of all non-krogans.

From there, I'll just repost my response to this topic before, which began with my feelings about the Dalatrass:

The Dalatrass is not really a character in the game; she's just a poorly disguised strawman propped up by Bioware's writers to attempt to make an irrational position more sympathetic. The angry, dismissive attitude, the way she suggests the krogan are no longer "useful" ... she could have been wearing a black top hat and twirling a pencil-thin moustache, and it wouldn't have looked out of place.

She's a symptom of what the writers pull throughout that arc, using cheap emotional tricks to manipulate and pressure the player at every turn ... and small wonder. They faced an impossible task, to present an argument that outright curing the genophage would be a good idea in spite of everything we knew (or at least could know) by then about the krogans and their horrifyingly rapid default birthrate.

Logic and reason were against them, so they resorted to the one thing they had left: emotional appeal. And don't underestimate emotional appeal! Such a powerful thing it is, so insidious and seductive. Just reading these forums, you can quickly get a sense for how easily most people are roped into terrible decisions if you tug at their emotions in the right ways. It's an excellent illustration of why the kind of power to make such enormous decisions does not belong in the hands of most people ... not so much just because power corrupts but because emotional appeal easily tempts most people into using that power in terribly short-sighted ways.

My favorite part is when people say things like, "If Wrex is in charge, it'll be fine." "I trust Wrex." "Cure if Wrex is in charge, sabotage otherwise."

In reality, Wrex being in power (yes, even with Eve there too) is a red herring.

Think about it: ONE krogan is supposed to not only change the behavior of all krogan forever but also somehow change them so much that they're able to, as a total species, self-regulate their entire population ... forever? Even though no species, including our own, has ever been able to do this as a total species? It would be an utterly ridiculous notion even if the krogan were a peaceful and enlightened species! Animals simply don't manage their reproduction in this way -- not even the sapient ones like humans.

It's moot, of course. Wrex loses power about five minutes after the war with the Reapers is won.

Or weren't you paying attention? His power base was built around control of access to fertile females. That evaporated the moment you cured the genophage, and once they no longer have a big bad enemy to fight to keep their attention, the other krogan are going to realize this. Since Wrex's ideas were hardly popular, most of them will probably abandon him overnight. Even though some may choose to remain loyal, the real force behind his unification and reformation effort is gone -- it no longer has teeth. And his relatively peaceful krogan will most likely be quickly wiped out by another more aggressive "traditional" clan.

Basically, Wrex has always been doomed. He dies on Virmire if you can't talk him down (and this is actually the best possible outcome since it makes it possible to talk Mordin down later), he dies on the Citadel if you sabotage the genophage cure, and he most likely dies later amidst the shattered remnants of his no-longer-relevant clan if you cure the genophage. Viewed from that perspective, his death can be seen as an unfortunate but inevitable consequence of his blind obsession.

I sabotaged the cure ... not because the Dalatrass was convincing but because it's simply the right thing to do. I was there to protect the galaxy, not doom it.


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#16
Jukaga

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Very eloquent post, thanks for sharing. 100% true, especially that part about the Dalatrass. I just played that part last night and the caricature they made out of her argument was exactly what that post described: a 1920s movie villain, twirling their mustache as the train approached the damsel in distress on the tracks. They didn't introduce the 'phage because 'the Krogan ceased to be useful', they introduced it because the Krogans were overrunning the entire populated galaxy using asteroids as terror weapons and slaughtering every other sapient being they could find. It's just so monumentally stupid to even consider curing the phage.



#17
SporkFu

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Wrex has Bakara (if she survives) on his side though. She's the prophet of the new age, and all the krogan are converts. Wrex will be king until he dies of natural causes. Ever talk to him in the casino bar in the citadel DLC? He's making little Urdnots by the thousands.



#18
grey_wind

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Very eloquent post, thanks for sharing. 100% true, especially that part about the Dalatrass. I just played that part last night and the caricature they made out of her argument was exactly what that post described: a 1920s movie villain, twirling their mustache as the train approached the damsel in distress on the tracks. They didn't introduce the 'phage because 'the Krogan ceased to be useful', they introduced it because the Krogans were overrunning the entire populated galaxy using asteroids as terror weapons and slaughtering every other sapient being they could find. It's just so monumentally stupid to even consider curing the phage.

Opposite the Dalatrass, presenting Eve's ideas as "wisdom" was also laughable. "The females will not allow the males to use their progeny for war." Are you serious? You're telling me no Krogan female wants vengeance and war? Or that all Krogan males are gentlemen and are mindful of their females' consent?


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#19
Han Shot First

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Wrex has Bakara (if she survives) on his side though. She's the prophet of the new age, and all the krogan are converts. Wrex will be king until he dies of natural causes. Ever talk to him in the casino bar in the citadel DLC? He's making little Urdnots by the thousands.

 

And Grunt, assuming he survives the Shepard trilogy, is likely going to be the next to sit the throne. I think the Wrex-Eve-Grunt combo will be enough to usher in a new era for the Krogan, and one that harkens back to a more enlightened past.



#20
Argolas

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The problem is the Krogan's massive reproduction, as the Salarians realized. If the Krogan multiply at the rates they are capable of there will soon be more Krogan than Tuchanka or any world given to them could handle. Once their over-population is big enough they will run out of food and space to live. Even if the Krogan all suddenly became peaceful that will push them to start agressive colonization once again. As long as their birthrate isn't regulated the Krogan are just doomed.



#21
Jukaga

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And Grunt, assuming he survives the Shepard trilogy, is likely going to be the next to sit the throne. I think the Wrex-Eve-Grunt combo will be enough to usher in a new era for the Krogan, and one that harkens back to a more enlightened past.

 

Grunt is going to lead the Krogan to a more peaceful future? Have you met Grunt? He wouldn't even want the job.



#22
von uber

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I wonder if over population, the lack of resources and the no spaceships to escape will mean war on Tchunka.

 

OR

 

The 1,000 babies per year will be massively retconned to something more sensible.



#23
cap and gown

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I wonder if over population, the lack of resources and the no spaceships to escape will mean war on Tchunka.

 

OR

 

The 1,000 babies per year will be massively retconned to something more sensible.

 

I am pretty sure the 1000 babies a year thing was an ME2 retcon based solely on Patrick Wikes trying to make Mordin seem more sympathetic. In ME1 they never talked about how fast Krogan reproduce, leaving the impression that the genophage was  intended to cause a genocide, and that any females that were fertile was because the genophage was not 100% effective, and that was a flaw, not a feature.



#24
Jukaga

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I am pretty sure the 1000 babies a year thing was an ME2 retcon based solely on Patrick Wikes trying to make Mordin seem more sympathetic. In ME1 they never talked about how fast Krogan reproduce, leaving the impression that the genophage was  intended to cause a genocide, and that any females that were fertile was because the genophage was not 100% effective, and that was a flaw, not a feature.

 

Well the only person talking about it in ME1 outside Avina is Wrex, and we are hardly going to get an objective view about it from him. I wouldn't call the information we got in ME2 a retcon, since we never were told any details about it in the first place. If the objective was genocide, the victorious Turian fleets could have melted the crust of Tuchanka and pow! problem solved, re-write the history books and in a few hundred years no one outside of some old Asari would even have heard of Krogans.



#25
grey_wind

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I am pretty sure the 1000 babies a year thing was an ME2 retcon based solely on Patrick Wikes trying to make Mordin seem more sympathetic. In ME1 they never talked about how fast Krogan reproduce, leaving the impression that the genophage was  intended to cause a genocide, and that any females that were fertile was because the genophage was not 100% effective, and that was a flaw, not a feature.

Even in ME1, Wrex admits that it's not the Genophage that is causing the Krogan to go extinct, but rather a combination of their self-destructive nature coupled with their nihilistic psychological mindset because they perceive the Genophage to be a "sterility plague".