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[wcholcombe]

Ok, been replaying DAO for the first time in a while, not finished yet, but I have done the tower already, just a few observations I didn't necessarily remember all of.

 

Now I am intentionally not bringing DA2 observations into this, because both sides were horrendous and a lot of that was plot device driven, so sticking to DAO.

Ostagar:

--The templars at Ostagar actually seem to be pretty decent towards the mages, limited interaction true, but they still did a good job of protecting the mages and didn't seem to hound them.

--The Revered mother at Ostagar or grand cleric whatever she was is a total B.  I will admit I tend to concentrate on the positives of the chantry, but I would have liked the opportunity to gut her.

--Uldred...as bad as the RM was at Ostagar, he is just as bad and just as overly sensitive to any interactions with the chantry.  Notice they send a grey warden to get him-granted one who used to be a templar, but it wasn't like the templars were camped around him or came and demanded his presence, she sent Alistaire to request his presence..how much of a request is open to interpretation but it is there.

--Wynne seems to enjoy the same basic freedom at Ostagar that she does her entire existence that we know her.  This is before she was made Archmage for her service against the blight.

--The mage in the Tower of ...whatever its called...was obviously in the tower without any templars, he was just there with the soldiers in the tower as we encounter no templars.

Lothering

--The templars and chantry here for the most part are well represented as doing what is best for the people.

-- There are two nameless templars who refer to Morrigan as being a suspected apostate, but show no blind devotion to templar/chantry law in the face of no actual evidence and the bigger issue of the horde.  This is quite refreshing vs. DA2 presentation.

--I love the Reverend Mother in Lothering, she is the epitome of what I see when I defend the chantry, her focus is the people and doing what is best for them.  In my opinion there are far more of her in the small towns and villages of Thedas trying to help her charges, than there are institutionalized chantry power mongers. Yes she asks you for a donation, which she says will be used to help the refugees, but that is no different than the village elder asking for a donation as well.

--Ser Bryant is a refreshing character and obviously again concentrating on doing what is best for the people.

--The priestess who is having it out with the price gouging merchant

--The templars don't have an issue with the Chasind who have fled to the village-One watches and complains loudly about the Chasind freaking out about the horde, but he in no way threatens him, also as you approach Sten there is an encounter where a villager accuses a Chasind of robbing him, rather than taking the villagers side, the templar tells them both to calm down and go about their business.

Mage Circle:

--Gregoire is a little more of a hard case against the mages than I may have remembered, but he is dealing with an extremely extenuating circumstance.

--Uldred...god that was a satisfying victory

--The templars are not presented as being blood thirsty lets kill the mages, they seem to truly be saddened by the duty they may face.

--The blood mage interactions in the tower were  sad and well done, but at that point they had already chosen their path.

--The possessed templars again surprised me in that they didn't come to their senses when the demons were slain

--Cullen--great character, misguided, but well thought out and entirely believable with the situation he had experienced

--Irving a couple of things here, he seemed more big picture and less depressed than he does in the mage background. 

--Also of note, there is a note you find from him talking about scheduling a retreat for him and the master mages away from the tower to study Uldreds methods for manipulating apprentices who might succumb to blood magic.  It is interesting that Irving would be able to do such with no mention of the Templars.

--Also, when Wynne chooses to join you, she only has to convince Irving that it is for the best, Gregoire couldn't care less what she does, in fact, I believe Gregoire also says that the mages are free to assist you in anyway you need, stating that the templars would be busy restoring the tower and helping survivors recover and won't be able to assist you.

Camp

--Lastly just an interaction with Morrigan, where she says she has no ill will against the templars who hunted her as they were just doing what they believed was their duty and what they believed in. 

 

Sorry, this is a lot to read so I imagine some of you won't read it, but I found it refreshing to go back and experience this after the experience in DA2.  I found it much more refreshing that except for a couple so far-the RM at Ostagar and Uldred, the mage/templar interaction are sensible and for the most part understandable and non abusive.  Anyway, just my observations.

[wcholcombe]

Oh come on, we can never have too many of these  

 

And anyway, this was a little too specific for lumping into that other mess.

[Xilizhra]

--Uldred...as bad as the RM was at Ostagar, he is just as bad and just as overly sensitive to any interactions with the chantry.  Notice they send a grey warden to get him-granted one who used to be a templar, but it wasn't like the templars were camped around him or came and demanded his presence, she sent Alistaire to request his presence..how much of a request is open to interpretation but it is there.

Alistair never fetched Uldred, that was some other random mage.

 

--The templars and chantry here for the most part are well represented as doing what is best for the people.

They abandon the town later on, before the last of the refugees leave, as shown in DA2.

 

--I love the Reverend Mother in Lothering, she is the epitome of what I see when I defend the chantry, her focus is the people and doing what is best for them.  In my opinion there are far more of her in the small towns and villages of Thedas trying to help her charges, than there are institutionalized chantry power mongers. Yes she asks you for a donation, which she says will be used to help the refugees, but that is no different than the village elder asking for a donation as well.

Her bilking you for cash and executing prisoners by either starvation or darkspawn do not speak well of her character in the slightest. Especially with that "traditionally anyone who wants to speak with me must tithe" thing.

 

--Gregoire is a little more of a hard case against the mages than I may have remembered, but he is dealing with an extremely extenuating circumstance.

A mind rapist and summary executioner. If I could have thrown him to the demons, I would have. Especially as a mage.

 

--The templars are not presented as being blood thirsty lets kill the mages, they seem to truly be saddened by the duty they may face.

Far too willing to do so nonetheless.

 

Your observations are noted, but are also badly incomplete and fragmentary. Additionally, every Tranquil is another point of atrocity.

[wcholcombe]

Alistair never fetched Uldred, that was some other random mage.

 

 

 

They abandon the town later on, before the last of the refugees leave, as shown in DA2.

 

 

 

Her bilking you for cash and executing prisoners by either starvation or darkspawn do not speak well of her character in the slightest. Especially with that "traditionally anyone who wants to speak with me must tithe" thing.

 

 

 

A mind rapist and summary executioner. If I could have thrown him to the demons, I would have. Especially as a mage.

 

 

 

Far too willing to do so nonetheless.

 

Your observations are noted, but are also badly incomplete and fragmentary. Additionally, every Tranquil is another point of atrocity.

1.ok, if it wasn't uldred, it was still a mage reacting really dumb to a simple summons.

2.Yes, have you ever read how a military evacuation works?  They stay as long as they can to help, but at some point if people haven't left, they leave.  You aren't   going to sacrifice their lives because people haven't left.  They at least stayed and were helping.

3. ok- again it was a donation she used to help the refugees as she says if you refuse. She also still talks to you, she in no way requires a donation to speak to her.  Locking a child murderer in a cage to starve is hardly out of character for a middle aged society, it was a common practice for murderers, witches, thieves, pirates, and other violent criminals.  Though they were usually caged in the middle of a cross roads not outside of town.

4. Mind rapist? Oh you are referring to Tranquil..funny, how Irving has to approve those. Sorry I don't think Gregoire physically makes Irving sign them.  And he isn't a summary executioner, he is dealing with a fallen circle, the fact that he agrees to spare the tower if Irving will say it is saved, especially against Cullens vehement protest shows your bias. 

5.  I don't have the revulsion to tranquility that you do. I am not the biggest fan of it, but the only other option is forcing mages who you don't think will survive the harrowing to take it, or death.

 

 

And your bias is noted as well Xil.  I wasn't presenting this as a pro chantry or pro templar thread.  I was merely appreciating the much more reasonable representation of both sides interactions in DAO as compared to the utter lunacy by all in DA2.

[Xilizhra]

1.ok, if it wasn't uldred, it was still a mage reacting really dumb to a simple summons.

2.Yes, have you ever read how a military evacuation works?  They stay as long as they can to help, but at some point if people haven't left, they leave.  You aren't   going to sacrifice their lives because people haven't left.  They at least stayed and were helping.

3. ok- again it was a donation she used to help the refugees as she says if you refuse. She also still talks to you, she in no way requires a donation to speak to her.

4. Mind rapist? Oh you are referring to Tranquil..funny, how Irving has to approve those. Sorry I don't think Gregoire physically makes Irving sign them.  And he isn't a summary executioner, he is dealing with a fallen circle, the fact that he agrees to spare the tower if Irving will say it is saved, especially against Cullens vehement protest shows your bias. 

5.  I don't have the revulsion to tranquility that you do. I am not the biggest fan of it, but the only other option is forcing mages who you don't think will survive the harrowing to take it, or death.

 

 

And your bias is noted as well Xil.  I wasn't presenting this as a pro chantry or pro templar thread.  I was merely appreciating the much more reasonable representation of both sides interactions in DAO as compared to the utter lunacy by all in DA2.

2. Is their purpose as soldiers not to risk their lives for others?

 

3. Something she conveniently says after refusal.

 

4. Irving is a bloody stooge and my respect for him is minimal (although he does kind of sound like he was forced into signing off for Jowan). And I was actually referring to his attempt to butcher Jowan.

 

5. Or, you know, train them enough so that they're not suicidal. Encouraging voluntary Tranquility strikes me as remarkably mentally unhealthy.

[Adanu]

Another point. No one even bothers to question the 'need' for the 'tranquil ritual' until the Divine covertly orders it. See how well that goes over...

[Grieving Natashina]

Hey, what's going on in here?

 

 

Okay.  You guys have fun then.

[wcholcombe]

2. Is their purpose as soldiers not to risk their lives for others?

 

3. Something she conveniently says after refusal.

 

4. Irving is a bloody stooge and my respect for him is minimal (although he does kind of sound like he was forced into signing off for Jowan). And I was actually referring to his attempt to butcher Jowan.

 

5. Or, you know, train them enough so that they're not suicidal. Encouraging voluntary Tranquility strikes me as remarkably mentally unhealthy.

1. They are still soldiers, you don't throw their lives away pointlessly because some people are too stupid to evacuate as they kept telling them to do.

2. There is nothing convenient about it, their resources in lothering were stressed to the breaking point, you come in with characters fully armed and armored, yes it is only practical she ask for a donation. She at no time ties it to speaking to her.

3. We won't see eye to eye on Jowan.  I think he should have been killed long ago and it would have been a lot better for everyone.

5. Again, I doubt Tevinter invented Tranquility just for fun.   Is their a failing to tranquility? yes, it is that it can be reversed. The idea that the chantry and company were running around tranquiling people for fun is astounding to me.

 

AGAIN though, this wasn't meant to be a freaking debate about this, I just wanted to point out that things in the relationship were for the most part much more intelligently displayed in origins.

 

It is the closest thing we have to a representation of Mage/Templar/Chantry life prior to the lunacy of DA2, and I just wanted to examine that a little bit.

[Xilizhra]

1. They are still soldiers, you don't throw their lives away pointlessly because some people are too stupid to evacuate as they kept telling them to do.

2. There is nothing convenient about it, their resources in lothering were stressed to the breaking point, you come in with characters fully armed and armored, yes it is only practical she ask for a donation. She at no time ties it to speaking to her.

3. We won't see eye to eye on Jowan.  I think he should have been killed long ago and it would have been a lot better for everyone.

5. Again, I doubt Tevinter invented Tranquility just for fun.  Nor do the chasind practice the same thing. Is their a failing to tranquility? yes, it is that it can be reversed. The idea that the chantry and company were running around tranquiling people for fun is astounding to me.

1. Including the Hawkes, who had to wait around for one or two surviving members to come home?

3. Well, not the refugees he wound up helping.

5. I don't think Tevinter invented Tranquility at all, but if they did, are you really surprised that they'd mind rape people in more ways than one?

 

It is the closest thing we have to a representation of Mage/Templar/Chantry life prior to the lunacy of DA2, and I just wanted to examine that a little bit.

I am examining, just not agreeing.

[wcholcombe]

 

1. Including the Hawkes, who had to wait around for one or two surviving members to come home?

3. Well, not the refugees he wound up helping.

5. I don't think Tevinter invented Tranquility at all, but if they did, are you really surprised that they'd mind rape people in more ways than one?

 

 

 

I am examining, just not agreeing.

 

1. Yes, I am sorry, but you aren't going to keep say 50 templars around because the Hawke family can't get their garbage together and get moving. There was no ability for the small templar force to hold back the Horde because people wouldn't leave.  They could delay them and control the evacuation, they couldn't have done squat to stop the actual horde.

2.  The chantry was helping people.  They were providing shelter and supplies and dealing with the price gouging merchant by making an issue of him.

3.  I think they did, considering the circle system is based off the tevinter circles that were created prior to the Orlesian circles.

[KaiserShep]

I can go either way on Jowan. I actually had him enter the Fade to fight the demons, so I guess that was at least enough to hand him over to the Circle rather than being executed, though having him executed would be perfectly justified, just as killing Zevran on the spot would have been.

[Xilizhra]

1. Yes, I am sorry, but you aren't going to keep say 50 templars around because the Hawke family can't get their garbage together and get moving. There was no ability for the small templar force to hold back the Horde because people wouldn't leave.  They could delay them and control the evacuation, they couldn't have done squat to stop the actual horde.

2.  The chantry was helping people.  They were providing shelter and supplies and dealing with the price gouging merchant by making an issue of him.

3.  I think they did, considering the circle system is based off the tevinter circles that were created prior to the Orlesian circles.

1. Seems highly dubious, but I'll let this go for now.

2. Something of a non sequitur; I was speaking of Jowan.

3. I don't see that they'd have a need for it.

 

 

I can go either way on Jowan. I actually had him enter the Fade to fight the demons, so I guess that was at least enough to hand him over to the Circle rather than being executed, though having him executed would be perfectly justified, just as killing Zevran on the spot would have been.

I just tell him to go away. It works out for the best that way.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I just tell him to go away. It works out for the best that way.

Doesn't that prevent the "Go into the Fade" option for dealing with Connor, though?

[LobselVith8]

Doesn't that prevent the "Go into the Fade" option for dealing with Connor, though?

No, other mages can go instead, if you petition the Circle for aid (via Irving).

[KaiserShep]

I just tell him to go away. It works out for the best that way.

 

I disagree. Since he was brought to Redcliffe to serve as Connor's mentor, I considered it fitting that he put his life in danger to save him. That, and it's the least he could do for almost killing Arl Eamon. Why would I tell him to go away after what he did? I'd sooner kill him where he stood than simply let him walk.

[Grieving Natashina]

Doesn't that prevent the "Go into the Fade" option for dealing with Connor, though?

Wynne, Morrigan or a magi Warden will mention the option if you let Jowan go free.  I've dismissed Jowan before and had no ill effects from it.  There is even a bugged out quest (that mods can fix) that shows what happened if you let Jowan escape.  He's living under an assumed name and protecting refugees while fighting against Blight Wolves and Bereskran.  He'll say he's helping out after the fight (as a way to atone,) then you can choose to attack him or let him go peacefully.

 

http://dragonage.wik...wan's_Intention

[Hanako Ikezawa]

No, other mages can go instead, if you petition the Circle for aid (via Irving).

No, I mean doesn't it prevent it because he was the one to bring that idea up?

 

Edit: Nevermind

 

 

[Grieving Natashina]

LOL Hopefully I cleared that up for ya Hana.

[LobselVith8]

I disagree. Since he was brought to Redcliffe to serve as Connor's mentor, I considered it fitting that he put his life in danger to save him. That, and it's the least he could do for almost killing Arl Eamon. Why would I tell him to go away after what he did? I'd sooner kill him where he stood than simply let him walk.

Personally, I find Jowan protecting refugees from the darkspawn as "Master Levyn" more fitting.

[Xilizhra]

I disagree. Since he was brought to Redcliffe to serve as Connor's mentor, I considered it fitting that he put his life in danger to save him. That, and it's the least he could do for almost killing Arl Eamon. Why would I tell him to go away after what he did? I'd sooner kill him where he stood than simply let him walk.

What's he to me? Just another dupe of Loghain, not overly different from that one random elf spy, recruited because Loghain convinced him that Eamon was a threat. I don't see any real reason to detain him, and frankly I don't want him to screw up my efforts to fix the situation, so I'll send him on his way. And it works out better that way because he starts guarding refugee caravans there.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I disagree. Since he was brought to Redcliffe to serve as Connor's mentor, I considered it fitting that he put his life in danger to save him. That, and it's the least he could do for almost killing Arl Eamon. Why would I tell him to go away after what he did? I'd sooner kill him where he stood than simply let him walk.

I do the same. Even though I know that he had a quest like that, it always seemed right to have him right his wrongs.

 

 

LOL Hopefully I cleared that up for ya Hana.

You did. Thank you.

[KaiserShep]

If he was protecting refugees before poisoning the Arl, then sure, but I have no way to know that he'd do that. For all I know, he could be a nefarious ne'er-do-well that played the hapless foil for the Regent's treachery. So as far as I'm concerned, he either earns his life back, or he gets a permanent furlough to the beyond.

[Grieving Natashina]

Personally, I find Jowan protecting refugees from the darkspawn as "Master Levyn" more fitting.

I didn't know about that quest until my latest playthrough about a month ago.  I thought that was a great end to his story myself.  I liked it better than death, Tranquility or just vanishing into thin air.  It's a shame it's bugged though.  Plus, it does give a chance for players to kill him if they regretted letting him go at Redcliffe. I never did, but the opportunity should be there.

 

Too bad he was a dummied out companion.  There is a reason why he's the only guest companion from a prologue that has color around his character portrait.

[TheKomandorShepard]

What's he to me? Just another dupe of Loghain, not overly different from that one random elf spy, recruited because Loghain convinced him that Eamon was a threat. I don't see any real reason to detain him, and frankly I don't want him to screw up my efforts to fix the situation, so I'll send him on his way. And it works out better that way because he starts guarding refugee caravans there.

 

until jowan one cold night turned into abomnation and killed everyone like 90 % of mages tend to do