That's really why I don't like 'hardening' Alistair. It's unfortunate you can only 'program' him to stand up for his own interests a bit more at the cost of becoming a heel.
I could never make anyone where those after reading their description.
Not for long, anyway.
Silly Dragon you wash them first.
Silly Dragon you wash them first.
With what? Medieval laundry detergent? XD Seriously though, I don't even know if it's possible to wash badly-tanned hide, so maybe you're right. 
That is why just behead Loghain, don't use modern values there, it's medieval
I don't believe Loghain has ever been accused to raping anyone.
@Qistina - If Alistair's motivation was always to stop the blight, then his motivation should have been stopping the blight till his last breath, not to become drunkistair of the free marches. Whether the whole world around him is hypocrite or not is irrelevant to that. The setting makes it absolutely clear that Grey Wardens don't have the luxury of emotions clouding their judgement. Duncan gutting Jory is an example. Grey wardens are there to serve people by whatever means necessary. It can also be by recruiting a brilliant strategic tool aka Loghain who was the mastermind behind Ferelden's independence. Loghain actions during the course of Origins are not in question, he is a criminal without a doubt. But he has still got a brilliant mind in his head that might provide a strategic edge to the army, an army that is heavily outnumbered and with only three grey wardens at the helm. I get it that Alistair's feelings were hurt, but he's not just any person but a grey warden. I'm sure if Riordan were like Duncan, he would have put a dagger in Alistair's spine right there for deciding to abandon. Grey wardens are not unlike the Legion of the Dead, they live to die, not throw tantrums when something doesn't turn out the way they think it would.
You speak about Alistair tolerating every armed lunatic the warden picks up, but isn't it Alistair himself who gave his reins over to the warden? Why let a junior lead when you are the senior warden? If you can't lead yourself, then it's inevitable that along the way, your leader would make some decisions that you are completely against or not totally in agreement with. It's not a favour that he did to the warden by putting up with the likes of Zev and Morri, it's something he brought upon himself by allowing someone else to make decisions that were rightfully his to make.
The question for an ideal warden was never whether to side with Alistair or Loghain, but whether to side with or against the Blight. Depending upon the character you are RPing, it might as well be that your warden is letting Loghain live just to torment Alistair, but there's no denying that Alistair was not really a grey warden material, or at least not first in class.
There's one another thing that might come up. Was it a good decision to let Loghain go through the joining? Was it wise to trust him after what he did? May be not, but when have the wardens not taken their chances? Riordan himself said that blood mages, carta thugs, kinslayers are welcome if they have the ability. Sophia Dryden allowed blood magic and summoning of demons. Malcolm Hawke is forced to use blood magic to seal Corypheus.
There's not really anything to fault Alistair the person, it's only natural that you'd want to see the person who had a hand in your father figure's death brought to justice. Arguably Ostagar was a tactical withdrawal, but be it what it may, Alistair the grey warden was certainly not worth his salt. The only thing I wonder as I said in my previous post is what would have he done if knew about the final blow on the archD thing.
PS: Alistair's my favourite companion along with Leliana, but the wardens that I make in my likeness always agree with Riordan whether Alistair's hardened or not.
Well frankly neither was the Warden themselves since they wasted time trying to save Ferelden instead of regrouping in Orlais.
Not to mention Loghain is an old man past his prime so the Warden might believe it a waste to recruit him.
Sophia Dryden is proof that doing anything to win can backfire horribly though.
Well frankly neither was the Warden themselves since they wasted time trying to save Ferelden instead of regrouping in Orlais.
Not to mention Loghain is an old man past his prime so the Warden might believe it a waste to recruit him.
Sophia Dryden is proof that doing anything to win can backfire horribly though.
First Point: True, but I don't think that logically works as an argument against weaponizing Loghain.
Second Point: I usually play on easy and I still have to sneak in potions for that duel. I'm torn between wishing I could have unleashed an in-his-prime Loghain-as-Warden and figuring that I'd probably still be on my second playthrough with a challenge that hard.
Third Point: And Uldred for that matter. Though all that means is that you want to limit it to not using demons. Other dirty tricks tend to work out pretty well in this setting. (Like the starvation tactics that screwed Sofia, for instance. It was SOP in real life sieges, of course, but that doesn't mean it's not incredibly messed up.)
First Point: True.
Second Point: I usually play on easy and I still have to sneak in potions for that duel. I'm torn between wishing I could have unleashed an in-his-prime Loghain-as-Warden and figuring that I'd probably still be on my second playthrough with a challenge that hard.
Third Point: And Uldred for that matter. Though all that means is that you want to limit it to not using demons. Other dirty tricks tend to work out pretty well in this setting. (Like the starvation tactics that screwed Sofia, for instance. It was SOP in real life sieges, of course, but that doesn't mean it's not incredibly messed up.)
Well Cautherin is like a super boss when you first fight her and I mean the fact that his age might lower his chances of surviablity.
I'm saying she was a terrible example for a "good" Warden.
Well Cautherin is like a super boss when you first fight her and I mean the fact that his age might lower his chances of surviablity.
I'm saying she was a terrible example for a "good" Warden.
Even accounting for the fact that she'd probably be level-drained a lot in the interests of gameplay balance, Cauthrien wouldn't have made a bad Warden herself. Though I'll give you Loghain's age.
As for Sophia not really being as apolitical as she should have been, that's fair. But I don't see why that's being brought up.
I just realised - why can't I do this with Asari!?
I just realised - why can't I do this with Asari!?
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If i have a motivation of something, i can abandon it if my companions/co worker/platoon/whatever betray me. I don't want to take part in any of the bullshit they are going through. If they succeed in whatever they are doing then congratulation, but if they don't then they got what they deserve.
It's simple
As about why Alistair give the junior to lead, it is because the game require you to be a junior, not his fault in that. Blame the writer. It is a point where he don't have any defense of in story wise. You must lead because you are the player.
About Riordan, you just meet him, you don't even know who he is, maybe he's a spy, maybe he's a bad man, maybe this and that, maybe he's working with Loghain, maybe he's bribed...the point is, you know Alistair longer than you know Riordan. At that time, at that place, at that moment Riordan is just a guy who suddenly show up and try to sheanigan all your works...so no, I DON"T AGREE with him at all
I travel with Alistair, going into hell to gather an army, doing all the trivial tasks, going into the Fade and so on then suddenly a who know who guy want to take control everything? No...i trust Alistair more than Riordan and even the Grey Wardens themselves to speak the truth
You play as a guy/girl who just being recruited, know nothing about being a Grey Warden but want to talk about how a Grey Warden should be? No, my judgement there is as who ever i play, not as Grey warden at all....either as Cousland, Mahariel, or whatever race i play, not as Grey Warden at all.
Despite everyone call me "Warden", i never consider being a Grey Warden at all...anyone could do what the Warden do, things that make it difference is the ability to kill the Archdemon
But why would be an betrayal recruiting an defeated enemy to your own cause? An betrayal would be giving up and side with Loghain. But you are not siding with him, you are forcing him to serve your cause.
And as for Riordan, he couldn't be a spy or anything like that considering Alistair recognized him in the prision. And he have every right to take charge. He is an senior warden. Superior then you and Alistair by both rank and experience. Try pulling something like that in an army. It won't be pretty. After all, you and Alistair are members of an military order.
I see this has gotten a little crazy. The good thing is, Everyone is allowed to have an opinion. Isn't it great? 
If I want Loghain dead, I have Alistair duel him so the question never comes up.
Yet you're the one complaining he won't blindly follow your lead like a dog when you go out of your way to do things he disagrees with
What? You completely lost me here. Alistair demands that the Warden let him murder Loghain, or that the Warden do the deed. Refusing such an unreasonable demand is not 'going out of one's way to save someone's life'.
Yes, the reasons that my Warden appeased Alistair this time were pure metagaming - all the team's collected über items in danger of disappearing, and having to play the "Alistair stays" version at least once anyway in order to see what happens in the canonical version.
My current character would never have made that choice herself since she doesn't suffer fools gladly and has no use for a failed templar. She sees the advantages to having a Theirin on the throne with Anora, both for Ferelden and with regard to the Blight, but unlike Duncan she does not easily condone murder simply because it happens to be convenient. Like me, she gets really irritated if people act like children instead of getting a grip, in situations that are important and require level heads (e.g. Landsmeet).
most people wouldn't respond well to their friend saving the life of someone who killed their family and tried to kill them.
You lost me there, I'm afraid. Apart from arranging Cailan's death, Loghain did not kill - or try to kill - other members of Alistair's family like King Maric, Fiona or Goldanna. Unlike Duncan, who had agreed to kill King Maric - Alistair's father - in case Maric saw something in the Deep Roads that Duncan's lunatic commander wanted kept under wraps. And Loghain didn't try to kill Alistair either, unless you want to count his hiring the Crows to go gunning for Grey Wardens.
I think what really bugged Alistair was Loghain's being responsible for the death of his idol, Duncan, through an act of treachery.
Alistair did not object in any way when a notorious mass murderer and a professional killer joined the team. No fatuous comments about the honour of the Grey Wardens there. In reality he doesn't give a flying meow about honour or the Grey Wardens, or the Blight, or Ferelden. Except to the extent that the Grey Wardens happen to be a club he belongs to and which was Duncan's baby.
(... Alistair tottering ineffectually after Loghain while the latter continues chasing Leliana ...)
Or maybe you built him wrong or gave him bad tactics he's always worked for me.
As I said, it's not Alistair's fault that his taunts didn't work on Loghain. I mentioned it only because it is sort of funny. The one time when he could be useful to the team - being there anyway - the game makes him fail at something that he would normally be able to do.
When I get home I'll fire up the toolset and check. Maybe Loghain just picked a team member at random, like the spider queen.
Modifié par DarthGizka, 12 mars 2014 - 02:44 .
Alistair did not object in any way when a notorious mass murderer and a professional killer joined the team.
"What?! Now you're having the assassin join us? Does that really sound like a good idea?"
Or words to that effect.
Perhaps it was masked by the comment of another companion. Happens sometimes, even with whole cutscenes.
It is betrayal for everything that is HONOR. What Loghain deserve is only one thing, execution.
No matter who Riordan is, his rank or superiority, he is not the one who unite the land to against the Blight, he can give his opinion, but he must respect your decision. Any military officers will do the same in his condition. Why? because he know nothing what you have going through to reach there. So a wise senior military member will respect the one who know what is going on. just because you are a captain of a lost unit it doesn't mean you automatically taking order of new unit you stumble upon, unless that unit themselves giving you the authority. You better just shut up and see what the Sergeant is up to, you can give your opinion, but the men only listen to the Sergeant, you must remember that.
So seniority is not the issue here, even in army, senior officers don't just taking command of men of lower rank, especially the one who know the situation and respected by his/her own men
Honor doesn't mean much when you are about to get wiped out by an unstopable army of monsters. Look at Orzammar. Belhen is shown to be an scumbag that betrayed his entire family in an fashion that would leave Howe jealous just to get what he wanted. The honorable thing would be disposing of him and putting an nicer person like Harrowmont. But doing that screws Orzammar since Harrowmont traditionalism further the social injustices and cripples their economy. While Belhen pretty much launches the city into an new age.
I'm sorry, what? How come Riordan can't take charge? Because when it comes to military, rank will aways take priority. Let's say, in an army an group of soldiers is killed including their supperior. Only a few soldiers of low rank survive and keep on the mission. If they happen to find an superior officer during the mission, the course of action is to fill them in with what happened since your previous superior died and then allow to him to take charge. That's called chain of command. But plot and gameplay didn't allow for that sort of thing to happen since as the player you need to lead.
Alistair sees being a Grey Warden as an honor. That's why he does not want Loghain to become one. I still don't think Al should have left the wardens even if marrying Anora. He did not need to fight alongside Loghain, and if he wanted, he could have killed him somewhere on the battlefield. That was not the way the story was written however and there is nothing we can do about it now. We just play the game and have fun whatever choices we make.
(... regarding Alistair during the big Landsmeet brawl ...)The irony is that he singularly failed to do the job he had been given all the team's best kit for, which was to keep Loghain occupied until the Warden was done frying all of the latter's minions. Instead, all Alistair accomplished was to totter ineffectually after Loghain like Oghren after his wife, while Loghain continued chasing after Leliana until he bit the dust. It's not really Alistair's fault, since he taunted and bashed and pummelled the lech continuously while all that Leliana had done wrong was to look really cute in her armour and the Thane helmet. Maybe that's why it is called the Battledress of the Provocateur. Maybe the game simply wanted to add some more emphasis to the image of the failed templar. Who knows.
As I suspected, there is a hare-brained script at the bottom of this as usual.
It makes Loghain pick a random target via DEN_GetRandomTeamTarget() and uses that to override the AI. Without timeout, 'til death do them part.
It may be possible to circumvent the broken scripting by attacking Loghain pronto, in lieu of taunting. I.e. make the tank attack Loghain with a bow.
If i have a motivation of something, i can abandon it if my companions/co worker/platoon/whatever betray me. I don't want to take part in any of the bullshit they are going through. If they succeed in whatever they are doing then congratulation, but if they don't then they got what they deserve.
It's simple
Well, good for you.
As about why Alistair give the junior to lead, it is because the game require you to be a junior, not his fault in that. Blame the writer. It is a point where he don't have any defense of in story wise. You must lead because you are the player.
I'm sorry, are you serious? Why would I blame the writer when it comes to character development? It's they who designed Alistair, he didn't just pop out of thin air. If the writers wanted to portray him as an indecisive person, someone who's more comfortable following orders than commanding, then that's exactly how Alistair was supposed to be. Whether the writer did a good job or not portraying him, I'm not competent enough to comment on that.
It is true that from a gameplay perspective, the player is going to lead the party, but it wouldn't really have taken that much of an effort to make Alistair a bit more involved in the decision making process if the writers really wanted to. Your logic says that Alistair followed the warden because the warden is the PC, in the same way it says that Alistair put up with the warden's decisions only because he was the PC. Even Wynne and Leli could possible die opposing the warden, but we couldn't have that for Ali because he was an important piece of the political puzzle. You see, no credit to Alistair's personality. He was only considerate because the game demanded it, lest the warden guts him sometime. Is that what you are saying?
About Riordan, you just meet him, you don't even know who he is, maybe he's a spy, maybe he's a bad man, maybe this and that, maybe he's working with Loghain, maybe he's bribed...the point is, you know Alistair longer than you know Riordan. At that time, at that place, at that moment Riordan is just a guy who suddenly show up and try to sheanigan all your works...so no, I DON"T AGREE with him at all
Alistair recognizes Riordan from his joining. Riordan is a senior grey warden. In armies the common soldier generally knows his fellow comrade in arms better than his commanding officer; doesn't stop him from following orders, does it? A senior officer can take command of a company that has lost it's commanding officer, provided none of the survivors are of higher rank than him. Well, that is how it works in real life. It might be different in the DA universe, but I highly doubt it, seeing how the First Warden sends Mistress Woolsey to take control of the treasury in Amaranthine, and no one is given the opportunity to oppose it. So, at least some sort of chain of command does exist.
You play as a guy/girl who just being recruited, know nothing about being a Grey Warden but want to talk about how a Grey Warden should be? No, my judgement there is as who ever i play, not as Grey warden at all....either as Cousland, Mahariel, or whatever race i play, not as Grey Warden at all.
Despite everyone call me "Warden", i never consider being a Grey Warden at all...anyone could do what the Warden do, things that make it difference is the ability to kill the Archdemon
You can speak for yourself and your wardens. That might not be the way my warden or somebody else's warden think. It's true that the PC had been a warden for a very short time, but during that short duration s/he'll form his/her own opinion about what a grey warden would or wouldn't do, which in your case I presume, if I may, is more about honor and glory. This may not be true about other players. In those cases, the warden might have accepted the ideology that any means is permitted for the greater good and that Honor, Friendship, Love is secondary. Worth noting that Wynne seems to agree to this particular view, while Sten I guess is someone who advocates honor, but at the same time he also has a strong sense of duty and ethics.
Since this has dragged on too long, I'd like to make myself clear if I hadn't already. In my first post regarding Alistair's leaving, I wasn't saying Alistair's refusal to stand alongside Loghain as a comrade is wrong. I was simply questioning his abandoning the wardens when so many lives were at stake. It was a bit too selfish for my taste. If Alistair didn't want to play buddies with the warden from there on, that is well and good, but he could have at least waited till the end of the battle. Afterwards he may have left Ferelden and joined some other nation's wardens or anything of that sort. No matter what are the reasons for his outburst, breaking the warden's oath is not worthy of a grey warden. His heart is clearly at the right place, he's kind, but he's surely not much fit to be a warden; one day or the other, he's gonna break down, if not in the landsmeet. That's the only thing I was saying. For all I know, Alistair probably has the most clean record of all the lunatics in the warden's camp, including the warden. Most of them are killers, apostates, assassins, minstrels, bard, bird killer and what have you. Still doesn't mean his breaking the warden's oath will be overlooked.
@Mercury Elf - Well of course, I'd never claim that my warden is any better. In fact, most of them are nucking futs jumping here and there in hopes of encountering the starmetal ore, instead of heading to Papa Eamon's, you know it being a video game with limited options and all. The option to abandon Ferelden and retreat to Orlais was never given. But when the option was there, most of my wardens did what they thought was in the best interest. Now what is best would vary from player to player and is not worth debating on, but we all know how Alistair acted in the Unhardened-Loghain Lives scenario. So it's only that I'll comment on, not the warden. The warden's a variable.
It's Loghain's tactical expertise which could have been useful, even if he weren't able to stand tall at the vanguard. Even if the warden doubted Loghain's physical fitness, there is no way he's not aware of Loghain's role in driving out the Orlesians.
Yes, doing anything to win can backfire. That is what is a risk basically. For all we know, the story might have taken some other turn and Loghain might have ended up doing something even more sinister after being recruited. But that is not the point. I'm not commenting on the warden or the grey wardens' affinity to follow any means necessary to tackle anything related to darkspawn. I'm merely questioning Alistair's decision to abandon the wardens.
I'm just saying a Warden can have reasons for not recruiting Loghain besides revenge or indulging Alistair.
Personally if I was the writer I'd have Alistair become an npc that dies attempting to kill the Arch-demon just as you reach it but alas...
I'm just saying a Warden can have reasons for not recruiting Loghain besides revenge or indulging Alistair.
Personally if I was the writer I'd have Alistair become an npc that dies attempting to kill the Arch-demon just as you reach it but alas...
They can, and unless you metagame that's probably the safer move. But there's legitimate in-character reasons to recruit him as well.
They can, and unless you metagame that's probably the safer move. But there's legitimate in-character reasons to recruit him as well.
Exactly.
I'm just saying a Warden can have reasons for not recruiting Loghain besides revenge or indulging Alistair.
I agree with you on that mate.
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