^Whatever you say salroka.
My most sincere apologies Alistair....(spoilers)
Débuté par
Beerfish
, mars 10 2014 03:46
Retour en haut
#77
Posté 13 mars 2014 - 04:51
Shadow of Light Dragon
-
- Members
- 5 179 messages
In my first post regarding Alistair's leaving, I wasn't saying Alistair's refusal to stand alongside Loghain as a comrade is wrong. I was simply questioning his abandoning the wardens when so many lives were at stake. It was a bit too selfish for my taste. If Alistair didn't want to play buddies with the warden from there on, that is well and good, but he could have at least waited till the end of the battle. Afterwards he may have left Ferelden and joined some other nation's wardens or anything of that sort. No matter what are the reasons for his outburst, breaking the warden's oath is not worthy of a grey warden. His heart is clearly at the right place, he's kind, but he's surely not much fit to be a warden; one day or the other, he's gonna break down, if not in the landsmeet. That's the only thing I was saying. For all I know, Alistair probably has the most clean record of all the lunatics in the warden's camp, including the warden. Most of them are killers, apostates, assassins, minstrels, bard, bird killer and what have you. Still doesn't mean his breaking the warden's oath will be overlooked.
Gaider called Alistair's hatred of Loghain the character's one great failing; it corrupted him enough that he'd leave the Wardens and abandon everything. I didn't mind the scene, but I did think Alistair's tirade against Loghain was a bit left-field considering he hadn't said much about the guy at all after Ostagar, and certainly not in any way that warns you he hates the man for what happened to the Wardens. Enough to want to kill him personally, even.
Of course, then there's Alistair's left-field reaction to the Morrigan look-alike in the Dragon Age comics... 
#78
Guest_Faerunner_*
Posté 13 mars 2014 - 07:03
Guest_Faerunner_*
Guest_Faerunner_*
-
- Guests
I'm just saying a Warden can have reasons for not recruiting Loghain besides revenge or indulging Alistair.
Indeed. Personally, I find him about as effective protecting Ferelden as a fox protecting a hen house. My character thought about sparing him out of pity for Anora losing her father. Her own anger about her own father being sold into slavery by him aside, my skinny little rogue elf could trust the big heavily-armored human as far as she could throw him. He didn't exactly prove honest (to himself or others), trustworthy, or effective against the Blight.
- Shadow Fox aime ceci
#79
Posté 13 mars 2014 - 10:00
Shadow of Light Dragon
-
- Members
- 5 179 messages
The Joining process is really weird. On one hand it's like a super secret society and you can't tell anyone what it involves etc etc but then all sorts of untrustworthy people are recruited, and are expected to play along because they're impressed by the Wardens' mission or something? I don't get how someone didn't spread all the secrets centuries ago.
#80
Posté 13 mars 2014 - 11:01
Jedimaster88
-
- Members
- 287 messages
I noticed some of you people mentioning warden´s oath.
Do the wardens actually swear any kind of oath when they join the order? I dont remember any of my wardens doing so. Basically Duncan just took them with him, they drank some blood and thats it. No cool words were spoken except the ones spoken by Alistair.
Later as a warden commander, I recruited Anders, Velana etc. I dont remember them ever swearing any oaths either.
If they dont swear any oaths, is Alistair actually breaking any if he leaves?
I tried to look it up from dragon age wiki but found no mention of it. If some of you knows something about it, please enlighten me.
#81
Posté 13 mars 2014 - 11:31
DarthGizka
-
- Members
- 867 messages
In any case it would be odd if you were free to do whatever you pleased after Duncan saved you from the gallows by invoking the right to conscription. Hence at least the conscripts would be bound to the order until formally released, and the treaties granting conscription rights would surely guard against such loopholes.
The game surprised me a couple of times with people walking away from the Grey Wardens (Alistair) or being asked what they want to do after the Blight has ended (PC). There must have been something that made me believe Wardening was a "til death do us part" affair, quite apart from the taint eventually leading to the Calling.
#82
Posté 13 mars 2014 - 12:02
Corker
-
- Members
- 2 766 messages
Immediately after Joining, you are given an Amulet called "Warden's Oath," which could give the impression that an oath is involved. Duncan also calls it "the duty which cannot be forsworn," again implying that there was an initial swearing to uphold the duty. (You can't forswear what you didn't swear in the first place.)
Keenan's unfaithful wife in Awakening cheats, at least in part, because she's angry that her husband took on Grey Warden duties that she feels conflicted with their pre-existing marriage vows. I don't remember if she directly says that he made a vow or an oath to the Wardens, but I got the impression that she was equating the two institutions. I think she says something like "What about the vows he swore to me?" which sort of implied that he'd gone on to swear other vows. It wasn't just a job that he took.
I suspect the Awakening crew don't say anything because in the DAO Joining, the unvoiced Warden doesn't say anything. (Either you'd give the Warden one dialogue choice (the vow), which would seem silly - why give a menu with one choice? - you do give a choice, and someone picks "not the vow" and Duncan has to go all Jory on the Warden, and we can't have that.) So maybe it's established that the cup-guy says the words, and the initiate indicates acceptance by drinking. (Like if at a wedding, the priest said all the vows, and if you agree, you swap rings. Wouldn't hold water by our standards, but hey, fantasy world.)
- mousestalker et Blazomancer aiment ceci
#83
Posté 13 mars 2014 - 12:26
DarthGizka
-
- Members
- 867 messages
Good catch.
At the Warden's Keep you unlock some secret treasure by reciting the Grey Warden's oath in front of a picture. This is another indication that such an oath must exist.
- Blazomancer aime ceci
#84
Posté 18 mars 2014 - 03:29
Hazegurl
-
- Members
- 4 927 messages
Don't worry. I always strip Alistair when my Male Warden hooks up with Anora and spares Loghain. 
#85
Guest_starlitegirlx_*
Posté 18 mars 2014 - 07:55
Guest_starlitegirlx_*
Guest_starlitegirlx_*
-
- Guests
Alistair is poorly written in many places. While a good portion of his character is well written, there are moments when it is purely about gameplay and obviously so which is where the writing falters greatly because frankly if it were truly well done, such things wouldn't be so obvious that they smack of manipulating the player on some level or forcing the story in some way to evolve how they feel it should or ever rigging the game so that certain rules that are created by the writer set up circumstances that really don't always make sense. Too many to list but one that is shiningly absurd is that through the whole game being a warden is so very important and frankly the main plot. Yet the civil was creates this other plot that seems to become a rival for the main plot and that really is a failure because now we become concerned about who is king or queen. In other cases we cared because it would get us the army because until it was resolved we could not get our army. Some might say this is so for the landsmeet as well, but it is actually a very foced situation where you are now deeply interjected into the proceedings and personal relationships suddenly turn on the head of the dime. I find this part of the story to be pure rubbish since Alistair has sworn an oath and making him king now makes you the only living grey warden in all of ferelden. But it is presented in such a way that people now think that his being king is somehow essential even overlooking the fact that beyond his blood, he doesn't want it, and has deferred to you to take charge - you - the newest recruit! Newer than him! Yet one crappy line of conversation outside of his sister's hut makes him kingly material? Are you kidding me? And from a psychological standpoint it shows that the writer knows nothing of people or the psychology that drives them because the line tells him people are out for themselves. If you tell someone who does not want to be king that, the net result based on his lines afterward of how he's going to stand up for himself more flies in direct opposition to being manipulated into being on the thrown. Hardening him is the stupidest thing in the game. It's result is illogical and frankly it should have him refuse being the king since he states over and over that he doesn't want to be the king. But it magically changes him to wanting to be the king - to capitualting to doing what he did not want to do at all EVER and thus despite saying what he does after that line he becomes even a bigger pushover that makes zero sense. This is how certain things are in this game. Contrivances that mess with the characters and story in a way that makes no sense based on the preceding events.
Much of Alistair is written like this. He dumps you despite his supposedly adoring/loving you to have an heir or because you are not noble. Not the mark of a man who will do what he wants. That's the mark of a man who has chosen to capitulate to everyone else. The magical hardening has turned him into a bigger wuss than ever and also, he abandons his oath as a warden when Anora would be find as queen until you do the magikal mind altering hardening where he suddenly wants to be king out of the clear blue when minutes before you harden him he wants to be with you (if you romance him) doesn't want to be king, and is a loyal grey warden. His wants change magically and we are pulled into this other rivaling part of the story - so two main stories at once where one then becomes the center and takes over disregarding a whole lot of things.
Alistair is the victim of poor writing. Some of his lines are ridiculous. Some of it is in how they design his character while other aspects are just contrived and manipulations at best.
- Dutchess et DarthGizka aiment ceci
#86
Guest_starlitegirlx_*
Posté 18 mars 2014 - 08:27
Guest_starlitegirlx_*
Guest_starlitegirlx_*
-
- Guests
@Qistina - If Alistair's motivation was always to stop the blight, then his motivation should have been stopping the blight till his last breath, not to become drunkistair of the free marches. Whether the whole world around him is hypocrite or not is irrelevant to that. The setting makes it absolutely clear that Grey Wardens don't have the luxury of emotions clouding their judgement. Duncan gutting Jory is an example. Grey wardens are there to serve people by whatever means necessary. It can also be by recruiting a brilliant strategic tool aka Loghain who was the mastermind behind Ferelden's independence. Loghain actions during the course of Origins are not in question, he is a criminal without a doubt. But he has still got a brilliant mind in his head that might provide a strategic edge to the army, an army that is heavily outnumbered and with only three grey wardens at the helm. I get it that Alistair's feelings were hurt, but he's not just any person but a grey warden. I'm sure if Riordan were like Duncan, he would have put a dagger in Alistair's spine right there for deciding to abandon. Grey wardens are not unlike the Legion of the Dead, they live to die, not throw tantrums when something doesn't turn out the way they think it would.
You speak about Alistair tolerating every armed lunatic the warden picks up, but isn't it Alistair himself who gave his reins over to the warden? Why let a junior lead when you are the senior warden? If you can't lead yourself, then it's inevitable that along the way, your leader would make some decisions that you are completely against or not totally in agreement with. It's not a favour that he did to the warden by putting up with the likes of Zev and Morri, it's something he brought upon himself by allowing someone else to make decisions that were rightfully his to make.
The question for an ideal warden was never whether to side with Alistair or Loghain, but whether to side with or against the Blight. Depending upon the character you are RPing, it might as well be that your warden is letting Loghain live just to torment Alistair, but there's no denying that Alistair was not really a grey warden material, or at least not first in class.
There's one another thing that might come up. Was it a good decision to let Loghain go through the joining? Was it wise to trust him after what he did? May be not, but when have the wardens not taken their chances? Riordan himself said that blood mages, carta thugs, kinslayers are welcome if they have the ability. Sophia Dryden allowed blood magic and summoning of demons. Malcolm Hawke is forced to use blood magic to seal Corypheus.
There's not really anything to fault Alistair the person, it's only natural that you'd want to see the person who had a hand in your father figure's death brought to justice. Arguably Ostagar was a tactical withdrawal, but be it what it may, Alistair the grey warden was certainly not worth his salt. The only thing I wonder as I said in my previous post is what would have he done if knew about the final blow on the archD thing.
PS: Alistair's my favourite companion along with Leliana, but the wardens that I make in my likeness always agree with Riordan whether Alistair's hardened or not
This is a perfect example of how it really is the writing and we have to live with it. There is no reason for him to end up that way except the writer wanted a different outcome if certain actions were taken. They wanted to alter the essence of the character which they do in more places than I can count once we are dealing with this king business. The whole landsmeet is all about player choice and maniplation. Little of it is true choice. It's all very forced. It's all manipulation. Everything about it is wrong on so many levels. But this was their crowning moment that they devised by making him a bastard of a king. And ending the blight which is your duty as a warden now becomes a diminished point though we still do it. The key issue becomes who will rule and all the options except Anora remaining queen as her husband was the king seem like the player manipulating outcomes based on game design rather than a well written story. We are playing as wardens and yes we did help make a choice for king but that was to get an army. We did not presume to insert a warden on the thrown as part of the action. We never even imagined that. But now at the landsmeet we have to do that. We are even given say over the matter because we are warden which makes no sense as well. I don't care how far we have come to get us to stopping the blight, that eamon turns to us (under specific conditions, again with the manipulations and contrivances) and asks what we feel when really WHY would we have say in who is king? Try that in Orzamar and you may get attaked if you say it is your wish rather than Cairidin's choice. Here, Eamon has the power to ask you what your thoughts are - to resolve the matter of who will be king or queen. For all the drama around this absurd situation, YOU are the deciding element if you don't allow alistair to battle/kill Loghain where he then takes the throne as default (if you hardened him, not sure if you didn't but if you didn't that seems to go against his own desires throughout the game even moreso and again ****** poor writing that in anything but a game would get it viewed as trash). There is no logic here and it basically boils down to game mechanics and what the writer wants as outcomes while they have no logical basis.
I forgive alistair most anything as really he is just the victim of some terrible contrived writing. Poor thing. No other character is a writers tool to such a degree, so easily manipulated and such a major chesspiece for a major storyline (can't even tell if it's the main one or a subplot that takes over as a main plot at that point because the writing is THAT bad).
The other writing throughout the game is fine. The error was in making this all about Alisair being king or not in the final outcome and then having it be the very ending of the game with cutscenes that diminish the warden story almost entirely.
- Blazomancer et DarthGizka aiment ceci
