138 réponses à ce sujet

[CronoDragoon]

Me2 feels like a longer game with more content than me3 for some reason.

 

I think it's because ME3 has longer individual missions but less of them. So you remember all the loyalty missions or the Collector ship but not just how long Priority Tuchanka was, for example.

 

To the OP: The only thing I would change would be to swap EDI for Miranda as squadmate. EDI's character arc works just as well as the ship's AI than a squadmate, and Miranda needed some more interplay with the Cerberus sections of the plot.

[Bob from Accounting]

Miranda needed some more interplay with the Cerberus sections of the plot.

What kind of interplay, exactly?

[Iakus]

I think it's because ME3 has longer individual missions but less of them. So you remember all the loyalty missions or the Collector ship but not just how long Priority Tuchanka was, for example.

 

To the OP: The only thing I would change would be to swap EDI for Miranda as squadmate. EDI's character arc works just as well as the ship's AI than a squadmate, and Miranda needed some more interplay with the Cerberus sections of the plot.

 Only problem with that is it throws off squad balance.

 

In ME3, your three guaranteed squadmates are a pure soldier (James) a pure biotic (Liara) and a pure tech (EDI).  Miranda's a hybrid tech/biotic.

[Bob from Accounting]

It seems to me there's much bigger 'problems' than that. Such as nobody really seeming to have any clue what Miranda is actually doing.

[CronoDragoon]

What kind of interplay, exactly?

 

For one, Miranda's character arc in ME2 doesn't adequately explain why she decided to betray Cerberus. Her loyalty mission only shows why she now trusts Shepard, but why is she suddenly no longer okay with being TIM's tool? She could have also provided interesting dialogue in regards to the mutated Cerberus soldiers (is TIM indoctrinated now, or is he simply this ruthless?)

[CronoDragoon]

 Only problem with that is it throws off squad balance.

 

In ME3, your three guaranteed squadmates are a pure soldier (James) a pure biotic (Liara) and a pure tech (EDI).  Miranda's a hybrid tech/biotic.

 

None of which are necessary for a playthrough. Miranda has Overload, anyway, which is the important part.

 

Here is my ideal squad in ME3, and I think that it'd be possible for the vast majority of imported playthroughs, given Miranda's near-invincibility in the SM, Liara's flat out invincibility to ME3, and Tali and Garrus's popularity (and for non-imported playthroughs, they could have just canonized their survival):

 

Miranda: biotic/tech

Liara: biotic

Tali: tech

Garrus: soldier/tech

Javik: soldier/biotic

Vega: soldier

 

And since we're talking about fantasy-land budget, Javik isn't DLC and is part of the main game obviously.

[Bob from Accounting]

For one, Miranda's character arc in ME2 doesn't adequately explain why she decided to betray Cerberus. Her loyalty mission only shows why she now trusts Shepard, but why is she suddenly no longer okay with being TIM's tool? She could have also provided interesting dialogue in regards to the mutated Cerberus soldiers (is TIM indoctrinated now, or is he simply this ruthless?)

...Yes it does...?

 

A fair amount of dialogue with Miranda is Shepard confronting her over Cerberus. I don't really feel it has much to do with Miranda 'betraying' Cerberus but more with Miranda simply siding with Shepard over them.

[CronoDragoon]

...Yes it does...?

 

A fair amount of dialogue with Miranda is Shepard confronting her over Cerberus. I don't really feel it has much to do with Miranda 'betraying' Cerberus but more with Miranda simply siding with Shepard over them.

 

So why does she do that? When does she do anything but defend Cerberus when Shepard brings it up? Where is her gradual shift of opinion regarding Cerberus, or more appropriately, when do we have any indication that she is now willing to betray the organization and man that she has praised all game for Shepard?

[Bob from Accounting]

We have the considerable appreciation she shows towards Shepard, on both a personal and professional level. I don't think Cerberus ever 'touched' her in a way Shepard's actions with her sister did.

 

Look, having Miranda be the poster girl of Cerberus turning out to be evil all along is just not a very good idea. We really have more than enough of that in ME 3 already. I imagine it would seriously make Miranda supporters angry.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

...Yes it does...?

 

A fair amount of dialogue with Miranda is Shepard confronting her over Cerberus. I don't really feel it has much to do with Miranda 'betraying' Cerberus but more with Miranda simply siding with Shepard over them.

 

 

Why does she choose to do so? Why is Shepard able to change her views on Cerberus? What about a Shepard who sides with her and Cerberus? There is no 'my god I was so wrong' moments in ME2. There was nothing that built up to Miranda leaving Cerberus. Nothing.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

We have the considerable appreciation she shows towards Shepard, on both a personal and professional level. I don't think Cerberus ever 'touched' her in a way Shepard's actions with her sister did.

 

Look, having Miranda be the poster girl of Cerberus turning out to be evil all along is just not a very good idea. We really have more than enough of that in ME 3 already. I imagine it would seriously make Miranda supporters angry.

 

That doesn't necessarily mean that she'd somehow come to a conclusion that Cerberus is wrong or bad or evil. My Shepard managed to 'touch' Miranda on the personal level (not professional level, since it was a dream for her to be able to do what she did with them). 

 

The second paragraph is a complete red herring and straw-man. 

[kleindropper]

That doesn't necessarily mean that she'd somehow come to a conclusion that Cerberus is wrong or bad or evil. My Shepard managed to 'touch' Miranda on the personal level (not professional level, since it was a dream for her to be able to do what she did with them). 

 

The second paragraph is a complete red herring and straw-man. 

 

If you have Miranda with you when you decide to destroy the Collector Base instead of saving it for Cerberus, IM tries to make her stop Shepard. At that point Miranda sees IM is wrong and tenders her resignation on the spot.

 

Miranda reiterates these feelings about how IM was wrong if you talk to her after the Collector Base.

[themikefest]

She also mentions using the base would be a betrayal

[CronoDragoon]

If you have Miranda with you when you decide to destroy the Collector Base instead of saving it for Cerberus, IM tries to make her stop Shepard. At that point Miranda sees IM is wrong and tenders her resignation on the spot.

 

Miranda reiterates these feelings about how IM was wrong if you talk to her after the Collector Base.

 

Right but why does she feel this way about the base? Especially since you have the opportunity in ME2 to make her feel good about both her genetic modification and everything she's accomplished with her modification. Where did these moral principles come from that would make keeping the base a betrayal for Miranda?

 

It would be one thing if they showed Miranda conflicted when TIM orders her to stop Shepard, but she's immediately like "LOL what you gonna do about it, TIM?" That tells me it's not just loyalty to Shepard; somewhere along the way she's also become disallusioned with TIM and Cerberus, but we aren't shown where and how.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

If you have Miranda with you when you decide to destroy the Collector Base instead of saving it for Cerberus, IM tries to make her stop Shepard. At that point Miranda sees IM is wrong and tenders her resignation on the spot.

 

Miranda reiterates these feelings about how IM was wrong if you talk to her after the Collector Base.

 

I know. Believe me I know, and I think it's bad writing, and I'm saying it as one of the biggest Miranda fans and romancers around.

 

My question is why does she do this? There was no build up or lead up to it. And why does TIM have to be 'wrong' about the Collector Base. I fully agree with him, but I simply believe that the Base is beyond the capability of control of anyone, which is why I destroy it.

 

And I feel that Miranda's feelings on it are rather... irrational.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

She also mentions using the base would be a betrayal

 

I completely disagree with her on that line to be honest. That said, I destroy the base. Not because of some moralistic or ethical statement of principles. I destroy it because I don't believe that the Reaper tech is too concentrated and powerful to be adequately controlled, and I'm disturbed that TIM can't realize it. It's just going to end with someone indoctrinated, and the wrong person indoctrinated could be disastrous. TIM is said person.

[kleindropper]

I know. Believe me I know, and I think it's bad writing, and I'm saying it as one of the biggest Miranda fans and romancers around.

 

My question is why does she do this? There was no build up or lead up to it. And why does TIM have to be 'wrong' about the Collector Base. I fully agree with him, but I simply believe that the Base is beyond the capability of control of anyone, which is why I destroy it.

 

And I feel that Miranda's feelings on it are rather... irrational.

 

The incident with her sister makes her loyal to Shepard and more agreeable to his decisions. Seeing thousands of people goopified and the fact that TIM wanted to capitalize on that abomination probably opened her eyes to the true nature of TIM and Cerberus (along with the Jack situation, and Overload as applicable).  I'm not sure how she reacts to renegade Shep saving the base and that could have been an interesting plot twist in ME3 (throw it on the pile of "could'ves" for ME3).

 

  One plot hole I have trouble with though is the fact that Oriana is under the protection and at the mercy of TIM so its not very smart for Miranda to betray  him if she is concerned about her sister.

[DeinonSlayer]

I completely disagree with her on that line to be honest. That said, I destroy the base. Not because of some moralistic or ethical statement of principles. I destroy it because I don't believe that the Reaper tech is too concentrated and powerful to be adequately controlled, and I'm disturbed that TIM can't realize it. It's just going to end with someone indoctrinated, and the wrong person indoctrinated could be disastrous. TIM is said person.

Again, remote exploration via mech would have been the ideal approach.

Something else which could be a hindrance, though, is whether the base's automated systems would continue functioning after the purge wiped out the collectors on board. Would the cloning vats simply churn out a new batch of collectors to reassume control of the station before efforts could be made to secure it permanently?

It'd have also been nice to send a probe through first, linked back to base via QEC. Even if the probe only survived a few seconds and succeeded in only the most basic reconnaissance, it would tell the mission planners a great deal about what they were up against.

[AlanC9]

Aren't there a couple of cases at the end of ME2 where squadmates' reactions to destroying the base are incoherent?

[DeinonSlayer]

Aren't there a couple of cases at the end of ME2 where squadmates' reactions to destroying the base are incoherent?

Yep. About half of your squad (Legion, Garrus, Thane (I think) among others) voice support for keeping the base, but whether you keep it or destroy it, everyone will either say it should have been destroyed when you get back on the Normandy or voice discomfort with having handed it over to TIM.

[ImaginaryMatter]

Yep. About half of your squad (Legion, Garrus, Thane (I think) among others) voice support for keeping the base, but whether you keep it or destroy it, everyone will either say it should have been destroyed when you get back on the Normandy or voice discomfort with having handed it over to TIM.

 

Ya, something weird happened with that during the development cycle. Considering the changes the made with the ending (like what the human Reaper was and seeing the various stages of it's development) I wonder if some part of the squadmates reactions were also changed.

[grey_wind]

Yep. About half of your squad (Legion, Garrus, Thane (I think) among others) voice support for keeping the base, but whether you keep it or destroy it, everyone will either say it should have been destroyed when you get back on the Normandy or voice discomfort with having handed it over to TIM.

Considering the writers have admitted the Suicide Mission was rushed, it's likely that all these contradictions are just a result of a hodgepodge of ideas not being reviewed and edited properly.

 

Still disappointed that they completely axed L'Etoile's details about Reaper construction in favour of some mystic "essence of a species" nonsense.

[DeinonSlayer]

Considering the writers have admitted the Suicide Mission was rushed, it's likely that all these contradictions are just a result of a hodgepodge of ideas not being reviewed and edited properly.
 
Still disappointed that they completely axed L'Etoile's details about Reaper construction in favour of some mystic "essence of a species" nonsense.

We can thank Higher Paid for that, as well as Legion stalking Shepard and being festooned with bits of N7 armor.

[themikefest]

We can thank Higher Paid for that, as well as Legion stalking Shepard and being festooned with bits of N7 armor.

I remember reading L'Etoile's blog(I believe that's where I read it) mentioning that.

[grey_wind]

We can thank Higher Paid for that, as well as Legion stalking Shepard and being festooned with bits of N7 armor.

I've read L'Etoile's comments on the matter. I'm actually impressed at how well he was able to write Legion's "obsession" considering what Higher Paid thought was "cool".

 

I honestly don't mind the N7 armour. It gives Legion a rather unique feel, though it really should have been left as simply "a convenient field repair".

 

He's not played ME3 yet, and I don't think he ever plans to. I'd be genuinely curious to hear his thoughts about what they did to all four characters he put so much thought into (Ashley, Thane, Legion, EDI) and how they handled the Reaper scenario.