138 réponses à ce sujet

[MassivelyEffective0730]

I know, just rustling your jimmies a bit.
 

Still think you're being too generous. What you call "mismanagement of resources" I call "sheer idiocy". I mean here you are with your covert organization and you've got some fine goals (stronger biotics, preventative rachni or geth research, whatever). You've got finite resources (despite what ME3 would have you believe) and you're not quite within the bounds of the law. No, I'll go even further. Everything you are and everything you stand for depends on two key concepts, two holy mantras: secrecy and efficiency. You're supposed to be humanity's protector and advancer. Except if humanity could publicly wave a big enough stick to defend itself and also move the cash to fund its R&D projects throught the public sector you wouldn't be needed. Thus secrecy and efficiency should be your God and Bible.

Now with that in mind, what does Cerberus do? Terrorism charges plastered all over the press? Mad science blowouts that leak out into the public? Arguably civilians may never have gotten wind of Pragia or Overlord but given the level of secrecy we're supposed to work with I lump the Alliance and Council into "the public". And let's not even start again on the logo branding.

I agree the problem starts with the project leads but they're not the cause. Think about it. The typical Cerberus project methodology is "here's your resources do whatever". And look who they're hiring. You need people who can push the envelope into the extreme and who will if need be. You need brilliant sociopaths. And so you hire brilliant sociopaths. And then you just enable them and look the other way? That's not advancement. That's chaos in a bag. That's unleashing the Hulk just to demolish a building (because why not? You're paying him). It goes against efficiency, it goes against secrecy. It's a flaw in base operating proceedures. And it's so obvious, that to allow it for so long can only be chalked to stupidity.

A covert organization like this needs to be utterly controlled. Completely. It needs to have internal oversight up the ass, even if (or maybe especially if) they do things on the edge. But with this much failure at its base, it was only a matter of time till it crashed anyway.
 

They need a lot more discretion. They need to be ****** invisible, no, non-existent. Because a) they needed to be non-existent from the start and b ) they need to be that even more so now that they've been not only made, but tainted with the brush of terrorism, enemies of the state (for lack of a beter word) etc.
 

At best Cerberus needs to be broken down utterly, buried and its resources secretly assimilated elsewhere. It needs to be laundered in other words. With quite a bit of pruning in the process. Regarding the SB network, it's actually the other way around as it is the prime candidate right now to pick up the laundered resources (though it needs an overhaul as well- too many people know Liara runs it).

 

The new organization will be the Men in Black. There will be no public side. They don't exist, you did not just see them, have a nice day. Front organizations in the military, political and technological centers will be merely numerous pieces of a vast puzzle no one alive will be able to put together. A politician introduces a new bill on Earth while across the galaxy a small insignificant manufacturer cranks out a new kind of microchip. A few light years away, a new alloy is invented for lighter, more shock resistent vehicles while on Ilium research into into a new mode of energy has just had a breakthrough. The key reaction is seemingly sold to a competitor while stock from the microchip manufacturer is traded. The alloy company goes out of business and its assets are mothballed (or so it seems). A few months later on Omaga a new electrical-based weapon is found using a revolutionary new powersource managed by a unique microchip design in a shockproof casing. Several of these weapons later turn up on Earth as a result of new importing regulations the politician had introduced years ago.

 

And the only ones who have any inkling as to what really happened are locked away deep under a non-descript building simply marked "Department of Inter-System Horticulture"

 

And how are you going to achieve that. Not that I disagree, but with what I do, this level of secrecy is nigh impossible, impractical, and it is detrimental to efficiency. To some up a long point really quickly, it's a lot easier to set up an organization that everybody thinks does something else. You're not going to hide the universal men in black for long. But you can tell misdirect people over what it is. You rely on counter-efficient bureaucrats to worry about the numbers. You indulge the nutjobs to make everyone see them as crazy conspiracy theorists. Do it to the right people, they get paranoid, and paranoid people are easier to manipulate. Erasing yourself from existence is a lot harder than it seems, especially when you're having to deal with tangible resources. Intelligence agencies and people who don't want their stuff getting let out do a better job to misdirect than pretend that nothing's there. Unless you can get some kind of space-time altering technology that allows you to do so. Simply put, it's a great idea and it has enthusiasm, but it's not going to be possible. As I said, you're going to need some kind of organized group like the Templars or Assassin's to maintain a hidden, centralized leadership and guidance.

 

It really seems our key difference is that you think Cerberus is wildly inefficient. I'd say that they are, but I'd also wonder how much is TIM's own calculated work. Another issue is that I think you're looking for two different things: You're looking for control up the ass, but you're looking for decentralization to a point where only a few key individuals know what's going on. Personally, I'm going to say that you're going to need a bit more centralization. You can have a system that is untraceable without having to be as completely non-existent as what you describe. Who you hire should be of concern. In this instance, I'd say you be better served to focus on the control aspect. And, as I've said, the secrecy can be maintained through misdirection more than just complete dissemination to incognizance. Keep the space station orbiting a nondescript red giant hidden in a remote star cluster. Keep the stuff hidden under parking lots. Buy a building on Omega. It's remarkably easy to hide in plain sight when you put up the effort. As I've said, Cerberus system was not inherently flawed. TIM's MO was though; he needed a hell to keep a hell of a lot more oversight over his people, and people like Miranda or even Brooks to go around and be the trouble-shooters and enforcers. When you're looking for general oversight, are you referring to a hidden cabal or illumnati of people, or of one man with an ideal and a goal. You aren't defining the leadership for your method or system.

[wright1978]

Don't agree with the level of cuts to squad some have suggested. I'd make both samara and morinth npc's with the loyalty quest becoming a side mission though if it was up to me. I wouldn't have an issue in that this would make the complete success of the biotic barrier arm of suicide mission more difficult.

[CrutchCricket]

We'll probably have to agree to disagree here. I think most of the characters jtav listed could easily have been cut.

 

I understood Grunt's dilemma just fine on a purely intellectual level, but didn't feel that it was adequately dramatized. Simply by virtue of the way he's written, his arc is something that had to be told instead of shown, and as a result, I didn't feel anything for the character at all.

 

I agree that Samara had something to add to the asari besides "space babes," but perhaps this function could have been accomplished better by just writing Liara better. It doesn't help that Samara and Thane have overlapping archetypes, with both doing the whole "spiritual warrior" bit. Having both feels a bit redundant.

 

With the charges levied against ME2 already for being sidetracked from the main plot, I don't see how Grunt could've been more dramatized.

 

I'll also point out that there's nothing wrong with introducing the characters in one game and exploring them more in another, or in spin-off material. It's nice to know the galaxy's bigger than six people, six to eight less important people and masses of clone-stamped NPCS. The real problem is they were all made expendable. Well, it's more of a perceived problem, but an obstacle nonetheless.

[SporkFu]

I wouldn't have cut anyone from the game, I would have combined some of them. Was just thinking of taking the best parts of, say, Kasumi's character and integrating them into Thane's story. Then change Thane's loyalty mission into something like: Donovan Hock becomes the politician Kolyat's trying to kill, only he gets captured and he's in a cell in the basement of Hock's place, so you and Thane have to infiltrate the party and rescue Kolyat. If he lives you get Thane's loyalty, if he doesn't, you don't.

 

Or go the other way. Eliminate the drell stuff altogether, and take the rest of Thane's story and integrate it into Kasumi's character and give her more depth. Instead of a thief she's an assassin, and Keiji is the one she was sent to kill but fell in love with instead. The one they killed to get to her. Maybe Donovan Hock becomes the one who killed him, and you infiltrate the party to get payback or something.

 

If I really want to get crazy I'd combine Jacob and kai-Leng and have Jacob turn traitor at the end of ME2, and that's how TIM got his hands on all that reaper tech after the suicide mission. And then have Jacob be the one trying to kill you all through ME3.

[CrutchCricket]

And how are you going to achieve that. Not that I disagree, but with what I do, this level of secrecy is nigh impossible, impractical, and it is detrimental to efficiency. To some up a long point really quickly, it's a lot easier to set up an organization that everybody thinks does something else. You're not going to hide the universal men in black for long. But you can tell misdirect people over what it is. You rely on counter-efficient bureaucrats to worry about the numbers. You indulge the nutjobs to make everyone see them as crazy conspiracy theorists. Do it to the right people, they get paranoid, and paranoid people are easier to manipulate. Erasing yourself from existence is a lot harder than it seems, especially when you're having to deal with tangible resources. Intelligence agencies and people who don't want their stuff getting let out do a better job to misdirect than pretend that nothing's there. Unless you can get some kind of space-time altering technology that allows you to do so. Simply put, it's a great idea and it has enthusiasm, but it's not going to be possible. As I said, you're going to need some kind of organized group like the Templars or Assassin's to maintain a hidden, centralized leadership and guidance.

You say it's impossible... except the Shadow Broker did it. His only mistake was referring to himself as the Shadow Broker and presenting a single control target that can be tracked. And we're jumping universes here, but Bane's Sith did it, all the way up to Palpatine. You may think such a system would be slow to respond but speed=/=efficiency. And the real feat isn't responding, but preventing. Real power comes not from meeting challenges head-on but manipulating them in your favor. The trick is layers. Place enough layers between you and what happens and you can't be tracked. Insulate threads here and there and you build a machine that seemingly does nothing, except only you can really see the strings. You can have your public fronts, you can even have covert units behind them hiding in plain sight and doing all the things you say. But to really go at it you go even further. Yes I am very much imagining an Illuminati type scenario, a conspiracy nut's wet dream. I don't think we really disagree. I think the organization you want to build would just be another cog in my machine.
 

It really seems our key difference is that you think Cerberus is wildly inefficient. I'd say that they are, but I'd also wonder how much is TIM's own calculated work. Another issue is that I think you're looking for two different things: You're looking for control up the ass, but you're looking for decentralization to a point where only a few key individuals know what's going on. Personally, I'm going to say that you're going to need a bit more centralization. You can have a system that is untraceable without having to be as completely non-existent as what you describe. Who you hire should be of concern. In this instance, I'd say you be better served to focus on the control aspect. And, as I've said, the secrecy can be maintained through misdirection more than just complete dissemination to incognizance. Keep the space station orbiting a nondescript red giant hidden in a remote star cluster. Keep the stuff hidden under parking lots. Buy a building on Omega. It's remarkably easy to hide in plain sight when you put up the effort. As I've said, Cerberus system was not inherently flawed. TIM's MO was though; he needed a hell to keep a hell of a lot more oversight over his people, and people like Miranda or even Brooks to go around and be the trouble-shooters and enforcers. When you're looking for general oversight, are you referring to a hidden cabal or illumnati of people, or of one man with an ideal and a goal. You aren't defining the leadership for your method or system.

 

Control up the ass does seem to be contradictory to "no one knows you exist" but I believe the two can be reconciled. The key again is layers, and for control, defined protocols. Say you have a science cell. They believe they work for the Alliance. Except they don't. Everything is forged, every communication they have with HQ actually goes somewhere else (where I'll explain in a minute). The protocols dictate the work is classified and no one outside their direct chain of command will recognize or acknowledge their rank, status, whatever. In reality no one in the Alliance would even know this outfit exists.

 

Now who are they actually talking to? Well it's a covert STG-like organization who have been led to believe they've infiltrated and subverted a genuine Alliance science facility. They have all the codes, they receive all the data and they handle the requests. And who do they think they work for? Just for the hell of it, let's say the real Alliance. But the information is actually being siphoned to information brokers who "sell" it to you. They think they're selling it to a rival government let's say.

 

Now you've got an untraceable chain (achieved by misdirection, sure) leading to back to you (and you're the one that doesn't exist.) So what happens if there's a problem? Well you "sell" a code back to the broker who contacts the Alliance. And in the Alliance you have a few plants whose only job is to monitor communications for certain codes, and transmit other codes once they see them. That transmission is defined in the STG's protocols as "pose as Alliance officer and remove scientist x, and quietly dispose of him". Which they then carry out. The problem is solved, the science cell has the impression of direct oversight, the STG cell has the impression of direct oversight, the Alliance only received junk data, the broker made some money as usual and no one knows what you did. And the ultimate control of course is a clean wipe. Each link in the chain can be obliterated and replaced without the others being any the wiser.

 

The example is convoluted and I wouldn't be surprised if there's holes in it because I only just thought it up. But something like the Alliance plants are the real bread and butter of this system. Ordinary people doing small disjointed tasks that don't stand out from routine at all (or better yet, seem part of the routine) but that add up to unfathomable actions. Whether it's building something or communicating something, your actions are indistinguishable from the background. They are hidden in plain sight, like you say. But you yourself do not exist. If we don't see evidence of something how can we be sure it exists?

[MassivelyEffective0730]

The example is convoluted and I wouldn't be surprised if there's holes in it because I only just thought it up. But something like the Alliance plants are the real bread and butter of this system. Ordinary people doing small disjointed tasks that don't stand out from routine at all (or better yet, seem part of the routine) but that add up to unfathomable actions. Whether it's building something or communicating something, your actions are indistinguishable from the background. They are hidden in plain sight, like you say. But you yourself do not exist. If we don't see evidence of something how can we be sure it exists?

 

Simply put, it is very convoluted and full of holes. In the intelligence world, you want something that we like to call 'Spiderman's Web'. Essentially, you'd be getting, as the term suggests, a spiderweb of various parts and cells and networks all working co-dependently and simultaneously, while also ignorant and oblivious to each of their purposes. It's the basic flaw of the illuminati system: It's too complicated. It works too hard. It's too decentralized. You're making a system that is not only hopelessly complicated, but needlessly complicated. The Shadow Broker (the original) had the best ideal: He didn't have the system you had. He had a system of operatives in high places, all of whom answered directly to him. He could make things happen just as well as your system, and he could make them happen much, much faster. He made himself known. He made his control be known, and he let his capability go into public legend. It's a lot better than being completely invisible. Layers and layers and layers of secrecy and misdirections will end up complicating your bureaucracy. It's what the Spiderman's Web relies too hard on. I'll be blunt: You can't have your cake and eat it too. Control or secrecy isn't necessarily mutually exclusive, but the more you have of one, the less you have of the other. It's like facing two opposite directions at the same time to try and maximize both. I'll use a modern example: Area 51. Area 51 could has all the secrecy in the world. This is because the workers are kept on a tight leash by the military and the government. Now, the system is too big to lie about whether its existence is a secret or not. So instead, they let the mystique and tightly controlled nature of the place fester rumor and legend. Add a bunch of crackpots who saw mysterious lights at night while camping in the desert near the base and let a few idiots out who claimed to have seen the alien tech and bodies, and you have yourself a beautiful story to keep the public enamored with what is going on to keep them from investigating what's really going on. Which is to say, top secret testing of high-level military technology (whether extraterrestrial in origin is irrelevant). They keep up the fences, maintain the sensors, keep a few white trucks and vans on the top of the hill, and if someone gets too close, give them a flyby from an F-15 or a Blackhawk. It's impossible to hide the stuff that's there. But you can control what people believe it's about. Which is what they do. The alien technology ideal is a good cover-up for the other sensitive material that the government doesn't want somebody else to know about. And when everyone assumes that alien technology is being experimented on, they don't bother to worry about the new system of stealth developed and being assembled to hide you from even infrared sensors. It's too low key for the people. Too anti-climatic. If David were here, it wouldn't be heroic. It's too mundane. That's another thing you're not taking advantage of. You're relying on the ideal that people are going to pick up on everything, and thus trying to make yourself as invisible as possible. In truth, people simply aren't going to care. They're not going to be smart enough to fit the pieces together. You don't need to work so hard. You really don't. As I said, my system, though it would be a cog to your machine, would be enough of a machine on its own to do the same job as yours, and all the same things as yours. You aren't describing anything your system could do that mine couldn't. You're making things bigger for the sake of making things bigger. 

 

And then there's this: You're going to be controlling the Reapers anyway. Why the hell do you need an organization like you're describing? Seriously, all you need to do then is indoctrinate key people do have them do what you want.

[DeinonSlayer]

Careful there, Massively. You started channeling Xil at the end there.

[von uber]

Xil?

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Careful there, Massively. You started channeling Xil at the end there.

 

He controls. I'm just saying, why put that much effort into doing things when all you need is an indoctrinated guy here and there.

 

Please, don't compare to I'm nice enough not to compare you to Xil...

[DeinonSlayer]

Fair enough. Won't happen again.

[ImaginaryMatter]

I don't even know what's going on in this thread anymore.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

I don't even know what's going on in this thread anymore.

 

Nothing that will lead to anything productive:

 

[CrutchCricket]

Simply put, it is very convoluted and full of holes. In the intelligence world, you want something that we like to call 'Spiderman's Web'. Essentially, you'd be getting, as the term suggests, a spiderweb of various parts and cells and networks all working co-dependently and simultaneously, while also ignorant and oblivious to each of their purposes. It's the basic flaw of the illuminati system: It's too complicated. It works too hard. It's too decentralized. You're making a system that is not only hopelessly complicated, but needlessly complicated. The Shadow Broker (the original) had the best ideal: He didn't have the system you had. He had a system of operatives in high places, all of whom answered directly to him. He could make things happen just as well as your system, and he could make them happen much, much faster. He made himself known. He made his control be known, and he let his capability go into public legend.

 
Yeah and look what happened to him. He got beaten by an archeologist (with or without the help of humanity's greatest soldier, that part is less important considering the result is the same).

Like I've said the example was just off the top of my head and I didn't really take the time to make it foolproof. Maybe it could even be simplified. But the principles remain:
-decentralized cells or even individuals doing small tasks indistinguishable from routine and impossible to link together if you don't already know the whole picture.
-control and oversight comes appears to come from their direct legitimate superiors.
-no one knows you exist.
 

It's a lot better than being completely invisible. Layers and layers and layers of secrecy and misdirections will end up complicating your bureaucracy. It's what the Spiderman's Web relies too hard on. I'll be blunt: You can't have your cake and eat it too. Control or secrecy isn't necessarily mutually exclusive, but the more you have of one, the less you have of the other. It's like facing two opposite directions at the same time to try and maximize both. I'll use a modern example: Area 51. Area 51 could has all the secrecy in the world. This is because the workers are kept on a tight leash by the military and the government. Now, the system is too big to lie about whether its existence is a secret or not. So instead, they let the mystique and tightly controlled nature of the place fester rumor and legend. Add a bunch of crackpots who saw mysterious lights at night while camping in the desert near the base and let a few idiots out who claimed to have seen the alien tech and bodies, and you have yourself a beautiful story to keep the public enamored with what is going on to keep them from investigating what's really going on. Which is to say, top secret testing of high-level military technology (whether extraterrestrial in origin is irrelevant). They keep up the fences, maintain the sensors, keep a few white trucks and vans on the top of the hill, and if someone gets too close, give them a flyby from an F-15 or a Blackhawk. It's impossible to hide the stuff that's there. But you can control what people believe it's about. Which is what they do. The alien technology ideal is a good cover-up for the other sensitive material that the government doesn't want somebody else to know about. And when everyone assumes that alien technology is being experimented on, they don't bother to worry about the new system of stealth developed and being assembled to hide you from even infrared sensors. It's too low key for the people. Too anti-climatic. If David were here, it wouldn't be heroic. It's too mundane. That's another thing you're not taking advantage of. You're relying on the ideal that people are going to pick up on everything, and thus trying to make yourself as invisible as possible. In truth, people simply aren't going to care. They're not going to be smart enough to fit the pieces together. You don't need to work so hard. You really don't. As I said, my system, though it would be a cog to your machine, would be enough of a machine on its own to do the same job as yours, and all the same things as yours. You aren't describing anything your system could do that mine couldn't. You're making things bigger for the sake of making things bigger.

The difference here I think is population density, surveillance density and paper trail. You say you can't hide Area 51 completely. I won't argue. But where do you really have to hide it? The desert is about the only place. We're stuck on one planet. How far is the nearest town from Area 51? 10-15 miles? You can't plop down a base that's 25 by 23 miles where people won't notice because there's literally no place in the world except for maybe Antartica where you can map out a region that big and be far enough from people that no one notices it, or the contruction, supply and patrol vehicles it generates. And even if you get away from the civilians there's always intelligence agencies from other countries watching you. I freely admit I'm no expert in military intelligence, the geopolitical climate or world geography but I'm willing to bet there is not an inch of land that is perfectly isolated from any prying eyes, civilian or military, foreign or domestic and is also suitable for those kinds of operations. Everywhere you go, you've either got satellites watching you or kids with iphones (or some combination thereof).

The other concern is paper trail. I assume the other reason Area 51 can't be a complete secret is the government simply can't hide the expenses. The most reliable records are tax records, right? The spy novels love to make references to slush funds and hidden accounts that aren't supposed to exist but I think at the end of the day facilities like Area 51 get paid for by good old government checks which a first year accounting student could probably trace.

How how would we differ in the ME universe? Well the geography's easy. Space is huge. We could hide numbers approaching infinity of Area-51 like facilities just outside our solar system. Though Area 51 again is a very centralized, very easy to decipher operation if you found it and were able to infiltrate it. Under my system there wouldn't be a need for so many 575 miles² facilities even though we can hide them with impunity in space. And as for the paper trail, this is where decentralization really shines. This is the stuff we're all familiar with, front organizations, shell companies, money laundering, etc.
 
I'm not saying your points about misdirection are invalid. Far from it, I expect everything you've said will be put to use by certain nodes that are too crucial to be themselves decentralized. I add the extra layers to make the nodes themselves as easily detached and replaceable as an individual. Your organziation will be a cog in my machine. You say you can do the same job without the complexity. But if your hierarchy is ever compromised, your entire organization can be taken down and your goal lost. With my layers, you can be cut loose, dismantled and made to disappear as easily as removing a single operative. And the goal would be preseved, because it would effectively be fused into the fabric of society itself and thus be immutable.

 

There's also a bit where you say most people don't give a shit. While that's true I believe covert operations will face higher scrutiny post-war (or post-strife). The reason being most covert agencies were directly responsible for some major inconveniences before: Cerberus, STG, Shadow Broker (to an extent), the asari and the beacon. I believe there'll be a bit of a crackdown on covert agencies not directly under control, so I'd prefer to hide even more than usual.
 
I'm always willing to research and refine my idea. I hold no illusions that it's perfect from the get-go. But the principles I want to set out will remain. The details are the only things that still need to be worked out.
 

And then there's this: You're going to be controlling the Reapers anyway. Why the hell do you need an organization like you're describing? Seriously, all you need to do then is indoctrinate key people do have them do what you want.

Who says I need to? Or that my indoctrinating key people is any different from what I'm describing? If anything it's the easy-mode space magic equivalent of the same thing. Think about it. I indoctrinate the leaders to move along the paths I desire, I wipe the knowledge of my existence from their memories, I infiltrate every level of society, doing the same thing and then use my pawns to basically spin the galaxy in whatever way I want. (Yet another reason the holokid is full of shit- the Reapers could've done this on their own, without my direction). Decentralization? Check. Utter control? Check. Non-existant? Check. Mission accomplished.

 

I don't do this because Commander gets disconnected from the petty needs of insignificant organics and has no interest in babysitting them for eternity. But while it's still around it lays the foundations of the organization I mention (with minimal use of direct indoctrination) and its organic allies (Miranda, Liara etc) take it from there.

[ImaginaryMatter]

Nothing that will lead to anything productive:

 

I'm fine with that.

 

If I wanted productive I wouldn't bring my computer to class.