202 réponses à ce sujet

[Terca]

Kinds off-thread of consciousness here, but what would people think of having the conversation trees splitting up more in MEN?

 

I mean, at the end of ME3 we had Red, Blue, Green and abstention. Would people enjoy having more choices than 'altruist', Neutral, '*******' (well, it isn't so clear cut of course, and I'm biased against Renegade)? More along the lines of 'Idealist', 'Conservative', 'Radical' for the Blue-Neutral-Red combination? In the games I found that the neutral choice rarely helped me out, and that could just be because I am a Paragon full bore unless it's an interrogation (renegade interrupts... Oh my...). People who are running a more reserved shep might get more use of it than me. But having a distinctly conservative middle point in the dialogue might be nice because it replaced what I felt like were non-committal answers in the games most the time.

 

If you were to have a green option, something that epitomized Synthesis, what would you call those dialogue choices? Would you treat that as the true 'ideal' color and then replace neutral with blue, as it fits the ending better?

 

I'm just wondering what people think of it.

[Major Tao]

I do appreciate the sharing of information regarding Mass Effect Next.

Wish the chiefs at Bioware would allow more information to trickle out about MASS EFFECT NEXT.

The story that follows expresses how I feel regarding the incredible scarcity of news on the subject....

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

 I feel like someone staggering around in the Gobi desert with an empty water bottle....     

 

"Mass Effect Next....!  Water.....!  Mass Effect Next....!   Water.... !"

 

A Djinn materializes from the Ether.....wanting to engage me in some banter....with some kind of ulterior motive....

The Djinn's talegmust and burnoose shimmer with iridescence and change constantly like the Northern Lights...

 

Djinn:  "Hello Wanderer  !    Hello  Sandy  !"

 

(  The Djinn's voice is rich and resonant....and carries echoes from Marrakesh, or perhaps the Arab Quarter of Paris...)

 

Me:     "My Name's NOT Sandy !" 

 

Djinn:  "....Ah....but you ARE SANDY - are you not ?"    

 

Me:      (  Frowning intensely..... )   ( I meet the Djinn's amber eyes and suddenly find myself light headed....  )

            (  Is it the Djinn ?   Or is it me....?   I've been searching the desert....searching the net day after day....   I've been out in the sun too long... )

 

Djinn:    "I sense that you THIRST for something ?    Could it be water ?  Knowledge ?

              What if I said I knew something ?    SOMETHING about......MASS EFFECT NEXT ? !

             ...Or would you rather discuss the Danish Women's Curling Team ?  

               Such Grace they have !  ....Such lovely forms !"

 

Me:       "Are you really a Djinn ?  Or are you a Marid ?   

              Look at you !  So self-assured with your SECRET KNOWLEDGE !

              Either I'm going to find what I'm looking for.... or I'll start making up my OWN DAMN STORIES !

              I DON'T NEED THIS !"

 

           ( Madly I dash into the Outer Darkness...away from the teasing Djinn....my vision blurry from tears....sobs errupting from deep inside my fandom self....) 

 

 

Djinn:    "Wait ! .....   Where are you going.....?    Come back !

              "Don't you want to hear the latest ghost of a wisp of a maybe rumor ?"

 

 

Me:        ( By now I am a rapidly diminishing figure far across the hazy dunes...my sobs carry faintly across the distance....  

               A rising gust of wind spreads clouds of dust and grit...concealing the path of my flight from the Djinn.....)

 

 

Djinn:     "WELL !   It seems....he's not interested.....!

    

               (  The Djinn turns about to regard You with golden appraising eyes...   )

 

              Greetings Traveller ! 

 

              How about You ?"

[SwobyJ]

Kinds off-thread of consciousness here, but what would people think of having the conversation trees splitting up more in MEN?

 

I mean, at the end of ME3 we had Red, Blue, Green and abstention. Would people enjoy having more choices than 'altruist', Neutral, '*******' (well, it isn't so clear cut of course, and I'm biased against Renegade)? More along the lines of 'Idealist', 'Conservative', 'Radical' for the Blue-Neutral-Red combination? In the games I found that the neutral choice rarely helped me out, and that could just be because I am a Paragon full bore unless it's an interrogation (renegade interrupts... Oh my...). People who are running a more reserved shep might get more use of it than me. But having a distinctly conservative middle point in the dialogue might be nice because it replaced what I felt like were non-committal answers in the games most the time.

 

If you were to have a green option, something that epitomized Synthesis, what would you call those dialogue choices? Would you treat that as the true 'ideal' color and then replace neutral with blue, as it fits the ending better?

 

I'm just wondering what people think of it.

 

Red - Pro freedom, anti security, anti peace

Blue - Anti freedom, pro security, anti peace

Green - Anti freedom, anti security, pro peace

 

Obviously there would be many grey shades, but this is what I'd like.

 

"Help, _____! Criminals are taking my wife hostage if I don't give them 1,000,000 Credits!"

 

Red --> Shoot or intimidate the criminals, hostage dies but husband keeps money.

Downside? So focused on criminals, that no one was (initially) saved.

Meaning? You're close only to yourself. The enemy is the enemy, and allies may not be helped. You get the most immediate job done - eliminating the threat of the criminals. This will simplify matters down the road, as it's made clear as a sure thing that at least some of the gang will return to crime.

 

Blue --> Brainwash (..) or charm the criminals, hostage lives and husband keeps money.

Downside? So focused on saving the hostage, that the criminals lived. (Or you were okay with infringing on their minds, or something)

Meaning? You're close to those on your side, but the enemy is still the enemy.

You get the job done, but you do it with some risk (the criminals living), some moral complications, yet still with the innocents being helped.

 

Green --> Give the Credits or ____ (insert persuasion word) the criminals, hostage lives but husband loses money.

Downside? You saved the hostage and kept ethics intact, but didn't treat the criminals like the enemy that they were.

Meaning? You don't see the enemy as the enemy, but instead people in a larger universe. You're willing to infringe on freedoms (the criminals) and security (the money) in the hope for something new and good. Something like some of those criminals possibly feeling bad for what they did, and coming back to assist the couple.

[Malanek]

Personally I think all morality should be dissociated from game mechanics including colours or positions on the dialogue wheel. Make the player judge the morality of actions themselves.

[SwobyJ]

Personally I think all morality should be dissociated from game mechanics including colours or positions on the dialogue wheel. Make the player judge the morality of actions themselves.

 

That's a possibility for future games, but I can totally understand BW keeping it for an original trilogy, as that was what they decided for ME1.

 

The decision wheel is actually an interesting reflection of not just the character, but of the player. It might tell a lot about someone if they are one to automatically jump to a color or position, instead of context or specific action - or the opposite.

 

But I'm getting pretty meta here, so I digress.

[Lyria]

Thanks for the info.  Man, I'm actually excited for Mass Effect Next or whatever the title is. 

[Terca]

I think that even if you didn't color the decision people usually can tell, at least with the style of dialogue in ME. They're pretty black and white... IMO at least, though sometimes I think they don't quite match up and there should have been a different way. That's just the way I see it though.

 

And the almost unrealistic outlook of the green choice could lead to some interesting outcomes...

[SwobyJ]

I think that even if you didn't color the decision people usually can tell, at least with the style of dialogue in ME. They're pretty black and white... IMO at least, though sometimes I think they don't quite match up and there should have been a different way. That's just the way I see it though.

 

And the almost unrealistic outlook of the green choice could lead to some interesting outcomes...

 

Even 'unreal' or 'virtual' outlook.

[Terca]

Yeah, because if we relate Green back to Synthesis (which is where the color came from for me), it would have to have something to do with the idyllic nature of the choice, the perception of it leading to an ultimate good at the end which seems somewhat too good to be true, which is something some people didn't like about Synthesis.

 

So something like letting a group of thieves go and allowing the sacrifice of others in the belief in the spirit of a people... Could create the most ideologically tied character you could have. Beyond 'Anarchic necessity' and 'Idealist Justice' is the 'Utopian Belief', the Green. Blue could be seen as an ideal but I don't think Paragon implicitly believes that everything is 'good', more that we must do something about it on one way, and Renegade says something must (or must not) be done for a completely different set of ideals. Green could be the outlook of a 'greater good' within things...

 

I don't know how it would help your character beyond making it clear there is a sort of humanism to them which makes them believe such a thing. It seems like the option which would get the least done... Though in a dichotomy setup of side vs side a Green could walk between them more easily.

[SwobyJ]

Yeah, because if we relate Green back to Synthesis (which is where the color came from for me), it would have to have something to do with the idyllic nature of the choice, the perception of it leading to an ultimate good at the end which seems somewhat too good to be true, which is something some people didn't like about Synthesis.

 
To me it's not just Synthesis:
-Overlord
-Thane in ME2 but particularly ME3
-Genophage Cure (whether better result with Wrex or not)
-Wrex+Eve have a tone of this in specifically ME3
-Geth Consensus
-A tone of this in Rannoch (whether better result with Legion/Peace or not)
-Synthesis
 
Basically it's something 'emerging', but not quite intrinsic to Shepard's character unless we go forward with it in specific ways. Shepard seems to be more inclined to be Renegade, with an optional Paragon route. The Green stuff isn't too core to him.
 
The 'color theme' seems to have a big "too good to be true" element to it, totally. But it also seems to have the "do it perfectly or not at all" element as well. For example, Thane could have sacrificed himself for absolutely nothing. But instead, he was there right when he was needed, and saved a Councilor's life in the process. And..
 

 
There are distinct negatives there though.
To Paragons, seeing one person view themselves as the solution instead of the solution being cooperation between many, may be seen as vain and disturbing.
To Renegades, seeing someone sacrifice themselves when they could have fought til the end for personal survival, may be seen as weak and utterly deluded.
 
Both may be correct in their own ways. People do have their reasons to stay away from a Genophage Cure (even with Wrex and Eve there), avoid Rannoch Peace, and view Thane's sacrifice as just the expression of his regrets of his life instead of something very heroic. I just think that it's not as much part of Shepard's story (except the surprise at the end) because it's not really core to what he's been through most of the trilogy (except in very specific RP paths). Instead, he/we are 'guided' towards it.
 

So something like letting a group of thieves go and allowing the sacrifice of others in the belief in the spirit of a people... Could create the most ideologically tied character you could have. Beyond 'Anarchic necessity' and 'Idealist Justice' is the 'Utopian Belief', the Green. Blue could be seen as an ideal but I don't think Paragon implicitly believes that everything is 'good', more that we must do something about it on one way, and Renegade says something must (or must not) be done for a completely different set of ideals. Green could be the outlook of a 'greater good' within things...

 
Renegade - I'll unite with you, to a point, to get the job done.
Paragon - I'll network with you, to save people.
Green - I'll merge with you, to make the world better.
 
Obviously all three positions may have downsides.
Green and Blue neglect the individual.
Green and Red neglect the collective.
Red and Blue neglect the universal.
 
Since Green neglects the individual and collective, heck YES things can go disastrous. Without input and context from others, one might doom everything
 

I don't know how it would help your character beyond making it clear there is a sort of humanism to them which makes them believe such a thing. It seems like the option which would get the least done... Though in a dichotomy setup of side vs side a Green could walk between them more easily.

Well I don't see it as much humanism. Generally speaking:

 

Red - Humanism

Blue - Transhumanism

Green - Posthumanism

 

There would be a humanistic element to it, as with all 3, but Green would be the most to try to 'move out' of what is typically defined as human. Inspired by humanity, but not necessarily tied to it.

 

Red - We humans are messy, and that's just how it should be and where we should stay

Blue - We humans are messy, but we can evolve out of it, if we try hard enough

Green - We humans are messy, but we can be something more than human, as it is inevitable

[Tython]

Well I swore after the terrible ME3 ending and lack of closure even with the extended cut that I'm done with ME. This information, if true, gives me hope they are moving in the right direction to rehabilitate the series. Although I do suspect they will take the easy way out and jump to another galaxy to explore and not address the ME3 ending debacle.

 

But if they add in a DLC that bridges the gap between the two games and gets my Shepard rescued from the bottom of the debris, I'd actually buy it. Here's hoping...Until then, I'll keep my game installed with the Mass Effect happy Ending Mod!

[Vespervin]

I really hope the part about Xbox One, PlayStation 4 and PC is true. I really would hate it if the Xbox 360 and PlayStation 3 consoles held this game back.

[Iakus]

Hardware is not what's going to hold this game back...

[Drone223]

Well I swore after the terrible ME3 ending and lack of closure even with the extended cut that I'm done with ME. This information, if true, gives me hope they are moving in the right direction to rehabilitate the series. Although I do suspect they will take the easy way out and jump to another galaxy to explore and not address the ME3 ending debacle.

But if they add in a DLC that bridges the gap between the two games and gets my Shepard rescued from the bottom of the debris, I'd actually buy it. Here's hoping...Until then, I'll keep my game installed with the Mass Effect happy Ending Mod!

Shepards story is over bioware have said so many times! citadel dlc was the last Shepard dlc.

Modifié par Drone223, 11 avril 2014 - 10:20 .

[Tython]

Shepards story is over bioware have said so many times! citadel dlc was the last Shepard dlc.

 

They also said our choices would matter in the ending and they lied about that among other things. Times change. People in authority change. You don't think if they released a dlc bridging the gap between each series people wouldn't buy it? Especially if it added some much needed closure to the original trilogy? Money talks at any company. When Bioware/EA's stock plunged after ME3's ending got out, the suits panicked and the extended cut was born. It's happened before but I agree it is unlikely as I suspect everyone at Bioware wants to distance themselves from that horrid ending but stranger things have happened...

[Drone223]

They also said our choices would matter in the ending and they lied about that among other things. Times change. People in authority change. You don't think if they released a dlc bridging the gap between each series people wouldn't buy it? Especially if it added some much needed closure to the original trilogy? Money talks at any company. When Bioware/EA's stock plunged after ME3's ending got out, the suits panicked and the extended cut was born. It's happened before but I agree it is unlikely as I suspect everyone at Bioware wants to distance themselves from that horrid ending but stranger things have happened...

Choices did matter in the game its just some sections handled them better than the others e.g. genophage/Rannoch arcs are the best examples. Also I'm pretty sure Bioware is sticking with their guns they had with the endings, (I think the concept Bioware had was great but the execution of it wasn't).

[Tython]

Choices did matter in the game its just some sections handled them better than the others e.g. genophage/Rannoch arcs are the best examples. Also I'm pretty sure Bioware is sticking with their guns they had with the endings, (I think the concept Bioware had was great but the execution of it wasn't).

 

Sorry I meant in the end the choices you made didn't matter which was confirmed by Marc Walters. I agree the concept was cool. I would've liked to have had more end options though to include the IT, a happier ending, etc. Obviously, the starchild was a disaster but that's been beaten to death. In some ways I can respect a company sticking to their guns if what they were sticking to was worth the conviction but those endings are not.

 

But we'll see how sales for ME4 turn out. If it bombs, Bioware will have to reconsider things a bit but I expect it will do well despite the damaging ME3 ending. People will always pick up what's shiny and new.

[Drone223]

Sorry I meant in the end the choices you made didn't matter which was confirmed by Marc Walters. I agree the concept was cool. I would've liked to have had more end options though to include the IT, a happier ending, etc. Obviously, the starchild was a disaster but that's been beaten to death. In some ways I can respect a company sticking to their guns if what they were sticking to was worth the conviction but those endings are not.
 
But we'll see how sales for ME4 turn out. If it bombs, Bioware will have to reconsider things a bit but I expect it will do well despite the damaging ME3 ending. People will always pick up what's shiny and new.

The EC did add some changes so we know what happens to the galaxy, (e.g. if genophage is cured with Wrev a new Krogan rebellion will happen in the future) so I wouldn't say they didn't matter in the end. Also people want to play more games in the ME universe and are willing to over look issues in past games.

[Tython]

The EC did add some changes so we know what happens to the galaxy, (e.g. if genophage is cured with Wrev a new Krogan rebellion will happen in the future) so I wouldn't say they didn't matter in the end. Also people want to play more games in the ME universe and are willing to over look issues in past games.

 

True. I guess folks like myself just think how things should've been. For example, Final Fantasy 2 (or 4 if you follow the Japan numbering) had a 20 minute ending. That was over 20 years ago and was a standalone game. ME3 was the last installment of an epic trilogy; it deserved a much better treatment.

 

But even I may consider the next game if it continues the series in a meaningful way.

[Drone223]

True. I guess folks like myself just think how things should've been. For example, Final Fantasy 2 (or 4 if you follow the Japan numbering) had a 20 minute ending. That was over 20 years ago and was a standalone game. ME3 was the last installment of an epic trilogy; it deserved a much better treatment.

But even I may consider the next game if it continues the series in a meaningful way.

Well the thing is that the "trilogy" wasn't written as a trilogy, each game was stand alone. ME2 for example is a great game on its own, but terms of story isn't good for the second part of the trilogy as there no story progression in the over all plot what so ever since Shepard in the end is back to square one preparing for the Reapers (the galaxy has made no preparation what-so-ever), so I think Bioware did the best they could with what they had.

If Bioware is to do another trilogy the story should be written before they start making the game.

[Tython]

Well the thing is that the "trilogy" wasn't written as a trilogy, each game was stand alone. ME2 for example is a great game on its own, but terms of story isn't good for the second part of the trilogy as there no story progression in the over all plot what so ever since Shepard in the end is back to square one preparing for the Reapers (which the galaxy has made no preparation what-so-ever), so I think Bioware the best they could with what they had.

 

If Bioware is to do another trilogy the story should be written before they start making the game. 

 

Yes I know and I agree. I just find it amazing as well that there was no outline, treatment, synopsis or summary of any kind. They didn't even know the end of the game until they were mostly finished. Great series but it will always be remembered for how horrible it ended. hopefully, some decides to write an outline for the new trilogy...

[DigitalMaster37]

Thanks for sharing!

 

 

Hmm. While I heartily welcome a return to exploration, I'm now beginning to wonder if I would like a narrative focus on it. Maybe the world in ME1 seemed so much bigger because exploring those worlds were optional? They were available if you should wish to engage in visiting them, but not necessary for the story.

On the other hand, I can understand the idea of wanting to make the most of what you build. Creating a dozen different worlds that many players might not even want to travel to could make it tempting to view it as 'wasted time'. But I think it would be worth it if it means the game world comes alive and has that incredibly-sized feel to it.

But as I said, I'm not sure if I really feel that way. We'll have to wait and see.

 

All in all, great things ahead if this turns out to be true gosh, I can't wait to hear more.

 

This^

 

I find myself thinking about ME1 as well and how the uncharted worlds were "optional" but it made the universe feel massive. By not having a narrative tied to them, it seemed like we were sort of writing our own story. A story with a few clean canvas areas really immerse the player right into it without a doubt. 

 

Good post!

[gw2005]

Sounds exactly like how Bioware will likely market it. Logical next step if you will. In fact, I'm expecting those kind of wording when the game is official revealed.

[Iakus]

The EC did add some changes so we know what happens to the galaxy, (e.g. if genophage is cured with Wrev a new Krogan rebellion will happen in the future) so I wouldn't say they didn't matter in the end. Also people want to play more games in the ME universe and are willing to over look issues in past games.

 

If the past issues end up getting imported into future games, it's gonna be really hard to overlook...

[Drone223]

Yes I know and I agree. I just find it amazing as well that there was no outline, treatment, synopsis or summary of any kind. They didn't even know the end of the game until they were mostly finished. Great series but it will always be remembered for how horrible it ended. hopefully, some decides to write an outline for the new trilogy...

I disagree that it'll just be remembered for the ending, it'll be remembered for its good setting and character development it's just that the story for the whole trilogy, wasn't planned well enough.

@Iakus, it's unlikely the next ME game will have an import feature and will have little connection to the plot of the trilogy so I don't see it as being much of an issue.