Meredith's response was so unsuitable to the situation that I can't see Anders really taking any blame for it.
Because everyone knew that she was becoming more paranoid during Act 3, Anders knew what would happen when he did that
He deserves as much as the blame as Meredith does
But without him, the templars woudn't have killed them. His action are strictly related to the start of the Annulment, because he knew what would happen. He wanted Meredith to start the Annulment so the the mages would be forced to flee: that's why he killed Elthina.
Anders may have wanted the Annulment to happen, but he did not cause it. He may be guilty of creating a harried situation, but is not guilty of the Annulment itself. That may sound like splitting hairs, but I very firmly believe that the perpetrator of a crime unrelated to self-defense or defense of another should not be able to foist any guilt of it onto another person, unless it was a conspiracy: that's how we get crap like blaming rape victims.
Meredith's response was so unsuitable to the situation that I can't see Anders really taking any blame for it.
That's like saying Roosevelt and Hitler had the same goal.
If one starts a riot he has culpability in any injuries or deaths that occur as a result.
Anders flat out says he murdered Elthina to have Meredith annul the Circle so the mages would be forced to fight the Templars.
If one starts a riot he has culpability in any injuries or deaths that occur as a result.
Anders flat out says he murdered Elthina to have Meredith annul the Circle so the mages would be forced to fight the Templars.
Anders didn't start a riot, and I'd be interested in a citation for that law if possible.
The Annulment was rejected by Elthina, and Asunder seems to retconnect Justinia/Leliana's POV. Unless Justinia called for an EM (which it doesn't seem likely, based on Asunder), Meredith could t have done nothing. Elthina wasn't going to conced it to her. And You forgot that the part of Leliana is a dlc that doesn't have to be played. Anders could very well know nothing about it, knowing only Elthina's stance, and still going on his plan.
Want heat of the moment? Anders wasn't in a dire situation. He wasn't risking nothing. He stated that because he fully support selling Fenris. I don't respect any desire of selling another into slavery.
I disagree on your opinion (not that I hold the Chantry in a pedestal though) and expecially with got methods and desires.
The Chantry might definitely be a great ally for the mages. It's better if the mages learn to coexist with the Chantry (or at least not saying war to them), for their sake. Otherwise I doubt the rebellion would survive in southern Thedas.
Val Royeaux. Meredith went over Elthina's head and sent the annulment to the Divine whom was considering an exalted march lest the city of Kirkwall fall to magic. What's easier? An exalted march or approving the annulment? You can have a nice chat with an Act III Karras if you don't believe me. Meredith also had the red lyrium idol and was become worser over time. She was going to call for that annulment, I'll bet my life on it. Anders saw it coming and made Meredith's intentions as plain as f*cking day to everyone. Basically there is a lot of evidence supporting the fact that Meredith was going to call for that annulment with or without the Divine's consent. And lo and behold, she ultimately did. Though it might have taken a couple weeks longer without Anders.
I'm saying that Anders was actually there and doesn't even pretend to be apalled, just the opposite. Loghain wasn't present when the elves were being sold nor did he ever admit to it except when you call him out on it, in which he then provides a very sketchy defense. There is a difference.
How do you coexist with someone that's systematically enslaved and wiped you out twenty one times over a thousand years? The mages should entertain the idea of making an ally with the Chantry but only as complete and utter equals and even then the mages should never take their eyes off of the malevolent organization.
Because everyone knew that she was becoming more paranoid during Act 3, Anders knew what would happen when he did that
He deserves as much as the blame as Meredith does
Yes, yes he does. As I've stated before, I liked Anders more as a person. It helps a lot that I had a chance to actually get to know him. Had I had the same chances for Meredith (or Orsino,) I might feel differently. Currently, one sympathetic story about her past doesn't condone her actions, which I've seen an excuse people make for her behavior. In my eyes, Anders upbringing also doesn't condone his actions towards the Chantry. They were both in the wrong with their actions, both had valid points, and yet were needed as catalysts to drive Thedas into the future.
This, I think, is why dead or alive he needs to stay out of Inquisition. I don't see how his story can continue after that. Plus, it's probably rather tricky to give a cameo for a character that is supposed to be dead. Mind you: Anders was possibly retconned (I kept him alive in Awakening,) Leliana might have been "killed" near the Sacred Urn (also a retcon,) and Zevran was a bug. I suppose Wynne in Awakening would count, but it was a very small conversation. You didn't even turn the quest back to her.
If Anders shows up, that's about the most I'm expecting: A five minute cameo that would leave Anders fans unsatisfying and those that hate Anders decrying "fan service." It seems like a lose-lose situation either way. Probably best to keep him to a codex and some mentions of him, and leave him directly out of DA:I. While there might be some wrapping up of loose ends in future EU, I think Anders' major role in the overarching story is done.
Yes, yes he does. As I've stated before, I liked Anders more as a person. It helps a lot that I had a chance to actually get to know him. Had I had the same chances for Meredith (or Orsino,) I might feel differently. Currently, one sympathetic story about her past doesn't condone her actions. Anders upbringing also doesn't condone his actions towards the Chantry. They were both in the wrong with their actions, both had valid points, and yet were needed as catalysts to drive Thedas into the future.
This, I think, is why dead or alive he needs to stay out of Inquisition. I don't see how his story can continue after that. Plus, it's probably rather tricky to give a cameo for a character that is supposed to be dead. Mind you: Anders was possibly retconned (I kept him alive in Awakening,) Leliana might have been "killed" near the Sacred Urn (also a retcon,) and Zevran was a bug. I suppose Wynne in Awakening would count, but it was a very small conversation. You didn't even turn the quest back to her.
If Anders shows up, that's about the most I'm expecting: A five minute cameo that would leave Anders fans unsatisfying and those that hate Anders decrying "fan service." It seems like a lose-lose situation either way. Probably best to keep him to a codex and some mentions of him, and leave him out of it. While there might be some wrapping up of loose ends in future EU, I think his major role in the overarching story is done.
I don't think it would have to be unsatisfying. Just have it shown that he's alive and that he's still in a romance if one was going (if friended; if rivaled, he's pretty clearly headed for suicide).
Well, In believe (based on the banter) that if alive Anders might feel guilt for the death of the mages, even if thinks it was necessary.Anders may have wanted the Annulment to happen, but he did not cause it. He may be guilty of creating a harried situation, but is not guilty of the Annulment itself. That may sound like splitting hairs, but I very firmly believe that the perpetrator of a crime unrelated to self-defense or defense of another should not be able to foist any guilt of it onto another person, unless it was a conspiracy: that's how we get crap like blaming rape victims.
Val Royeaux. Meredith went over Elthina's head and sent the annulment to the Divine whom was considering an exalted march lest the city of Kirkwall fall to magic. What's easier? An exalted march or approving the annulment? You can have a nice chat with an Act III Karras if you don't believe me. Meredith also had the red lyrium idol and was become worser over time. She was going to call for that annulment, I'll bet my life on it. Anders saw it coming and made Meredith's intentions as plain as f*cking day to everyone. Basically there is a lot of evidence supporting the fact that Meredith was going to call for that annulment with or without the Divine's consent. And lo and behold, she ultimately did. Though it might have taken a couple weeks longer without Anders.
I'm saying that Anders was actually there and doesn't even pretend to be apalled, just the opposite. Loghain wasn't present when the elves were being sold nor did he ever admit to it except when you call him out on it, in which he then provides a very sketchy defense. There is a difference.
How do you coexist with someone that's systematically enslaved and wiped you out twenty one times over a thousand years? The mages should entertain the idea of making an ally with the Chantry but only as complete and utter equals and even then the mages should never take their eyes off of the malevolent organization.
So basically Loghain's use of slavery to fund a war against the Darkspawn is inexcusable but Anders committing murder to cause a bloody war because he hates the Circles is justified because you hate the Chantry?
So basically Loghain's use of slavery to fund a war against the Darkspawn is inexcusable but Anders committing murder to cause a bloody war because hates the Circles is justified because you hate the Chantry?
Seems legit
Well, In believe (based on the banter) that if alive Anders might feel guilt for the death of the mages, even if thinks it was necessary.
I agree that his major responsibility is in creating the situation...but you should consider that his action could be considered a declaration of war. Granted, the right decision would've been to take him, and not blame the Circle, but he knew how Meredith would've react, and his speech before the event states what his intentions was.
I honesty don't see the comparison with rape victims: those don't want to be raped. ANders wanted the Annulment. His possible guilt is based by the fact that his goal was the Annulment, and for his goal mages (more than he thought) died.
His action couldn't possibly be considered a declaration of war because Anders claims no allegiance; he's part of neither the Circle nor the Grey Wardens anymore. He's purely a lone actor.
And it's more the legal principle of the thing; I don't want bad precedents.
So basically Loghain's use of slavery to fund a war against the Darkspawn is inexcusable but Anders committing murder to cause a bloody war because he hates the Circles is justified because you hate the Chantry?
..Okay, it wasn't just me that read that. Emissary hun, you know I feel strongly about the Chantry's hold on Thedas. However, isn't that just a tad overkill? 
So basically Loghain's use of slavery to fund a war against the Darkspawn is inexcusable but Anders committing murder to cause a bloody war because hates the Circles is justified because you hate the Chantry?
Make up whatever you like, Mercury.
Strawman '16!
Anders didn't start a riot, and I'd be interested in a citation for that law if possible.
By bombing the Chantry and setting the city on fire he did,there isn't one just my personal view.
..Okay, it wasn't just me that read that. Emissary hun, you know I feel strongly about the Chantry's hold on Thedas. However, isn't that just a tad overkill?
Not in and of itself. Emissary's end goal, of being able to speak with the Chantry as equals, is quite reasonable.
So basically Loghain's use of slavery to fund a war against the Darkspawn is inexcusable but Anders committing murder to cause a bloody war because he hates the Circles is justified because you hate the Chantry?
By bombing the Chantry and setting the city on fire he did,there isn't one just my personal view.
There was no riot. There was a disciplined army that chose to commit genocide.
Make up whatever you like, Mercury.
Strawman '16!
Your words not mine pal.
Hmm....
I'm betting if Anders lives, he'll at least make a cameo, and if he dies, Justice will make an appearance.
There was no riot. There was a disciplined army that chose to commit genocide.
Yea there was
Yea there was
Please, show me where it was.
Yea there was
Where and when? Just out of curiousity, since I beat DA2 three times, and not once did I see a riot.
Your words not mine pal.
My words that you twist and torque so you can see what you wish and then reply to it, pal.
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