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[The Elder King]

Val Royeaux. Meredith went over Elthina's head and sent the annulment to the Divine whom was considering an exalted march lest the city of Kirkwall fall to magic. What's easier? An exalted march or approving the annulment? You can have a nice chat with an Act III Karras if you don't believe me. Meredith also had the red lyrium idol and was become worser over time. She was going to call for that annulment, I'll bet my life on it. Anders saw it coming and made Meredith's intentions as plain as f*cking day to everyone. Basically there is a lot of evidence supporting the fact that Meredith was going to call for that annulment with or without the Divine's consent. And lo and behold, she ultimately did. Though it might have taken a couple weeks longer without Anders.
 
I'm saying that Anders was actually there and doesn't even pretend to be apalled, just the opposite. Loghain wasn't present when the elves were being sold nor did he ever admit to it except when you call him out on it, in which he then provides a very sketchy defense. There is a difference.
 
How do you coexist with someone that's systematically enslaved and wiped you out twenty one times over a thousand years? The mages should entertain the idea of making an ally with the Chantry but only as complete and utter equals and even then the mages should never take their eyes off of the malevolent organization.

Meredith had the right to call an Annulment after the death of Elthina, as the highest ranking member of the Chantry. Gaider stated so. She abused it (in my opinion) since the reason she called for wasn't valid, since the Circle was innocent of Anders' actions.
I understand your reasoning, but we have to agree to disagree. I can't consider Anders better just because he's honest about it.
You have to learn to coexist because you can't destroy it. Becuase if you'll try you'd be likely doomed.
And with coexistence I don't even mean an alliance. What I mean is that the mages shouldn't plot on destroying the Chantry.

[Grieving Natashina]

Not in and of itself. Emissary's end goal, of being able to speak with the Chantry as equals, is quite reasonable.

Well, I think that the Chantry has a stranglehold on Thedas, but I digress.  It just seemed pretty angry even for Emissary.  Plus, I usually agree with him, but I can't really justify Loghain or Anders' methods.  I think both of them got too emotional, and by thinking that they knew what was best for Ferelden/the mages, they got a lot of people killed.

 

Plus, every time I hear "Anders did it for the mages!" I sadly chuckle.  Tell that to my pro-Circle Warden.  Tell that to the people that are now effectively homeless and on the run because some freak in Kirkwall started a war.  That some of them didn't even ask for or want.  I don't like the old Circle system, but Anders had no right to speak for every mage in Thedas.

 

 Loghain had no right to isolate Ferelden from outside help and he had no right speaking for all the nobles.  He did try, but caused a civil war instead.  That's without fun things like him intentionally ignoring Howe's actions and blaming the Wardens for Cailan's death.  Ugh.

 

Yeah, not seeing how one is justified over the other here.

[dragonflight288]

Meredith had the right to call an Annulment after the death of Elthina, as the highest ranking member of the Chantry. Gaider stated so. She abused it (in my opinion) since the reason she called for wasn't valid, since the Circle was innocent of Anders' actions.
I understand your reasoning, but we have to agree to disagree. I can't consider Anders better just because he's honest about it.
You have to learn to coexist because you can't destroy it. Becuase if you'll try you'd be likely doomed.
And with coexistence I don't even mean an alliance. What I mean is that the mages shouldn't plot on destroying the Chantry.

 

They shouldn't, but neither should templars go above their superior's heads to try and get an annulment, or declare the deaths of every man, woman and child over the guilty person standing right in front of them, who committed the crime in front of their eyes. 

[The Elder King]

His action couldn't possibly be considered a declaration of war because Anders claims no allegiance; he's part of neither the Circle nor the Grey Wardens anymore. He's purely a lone actor.
And it's more the legal principle of the thing; I don't want bad precedents.

Bad precedents where?

[EmissaryofLies]

Meredith had the right to call an Annulment after the death of Elthina, as the highest ranking member of the Chantry. Gaider stated so. She abused it (in my opinion) since the reason she called for wasn't valid, since the Circle was innocent of Anders' actions.
I understand your reasoning, but we have to agree to disagree. I can't consider Anders better just because he's honest about it.
You have to learn to coexist because you can't destroy it. Becuase if you'll try you'd be likely doomed.
And with coexistence I don't even mean an alliance. What I mean is that the mages shouldn't plot on destroying the Chantry.

 

Not debating the validity and legality of Meredith's call. I am claiming with absolute certainty that Meredith was going to call that annulment, the entirety of act III practically screams it at the PC.

 

Fair enough,

[The Elder King]

They shouldn't, but neither should templars go above their superior's heads to try and get an annulment, or declare the deaths of every man, woman and child over the guilty person standing right in front of them, who committed the crime in front of their eyes.

I obviously agree with it. Don't know if it was clear.

[Shadow Fox]

It's the double standard I take issue with:

 

 

Both men commit morally deplorable actions for what they see as the "greater good" yet one is justified to you because you hate an institution.

[Grieving Natashina]

It's the double standard I take issue with:

 

 

Both men commit morally deplorable actions for what they see as the "greater good" yet one is justified to you because you hate an institution.

^  I feel the same way.  Both men thought they knew what was best, and both men put their perspective city-state/country into serious danger by having their emotions override their logic.

[Xilizhra]

Well, I think that the Chantry has a stranglehold on Thedas, but I digress.  It just seemed pretty angry even for Emissary.  Plus, I usually agree with him, but I can't really justify Loghain or Anders' methods.  I think both of them got too emotional, and by thinking that they knew what was best for Ferelden/the mages, they got a lot of people killed.

 

Plus, every time I hear "Anders did it for the mages!" I sadly chuckle.  Tell that to my pro-Circle Warden.  Tell that to the people that are now effectively homeless and on the run because some freak in Kirkwall started a war.  That some of them didn't even ask for or want.  I don't like the old Circle system, but Anders had no right to speak for every mage in Thedas.

 

 Loghain had no right to isolate Ferelden from outside help and he had no right speaking for all the nobles.  He did try, but caused a civil war instead.  That's without fun things like him intentionally ignoring Howe's actions and blaming the Warden for Callen's death.  Ugh.

 

Yeah, not seeing how one is justified over the other here.

Anders spoke for those mages who'd been most heavily victimized by the Chantry. And those who were comfortable and obsequious enough to avoid the templars' wrath... well, if their comfort and silence is bought with the suffering of those less fortunate than they, and they allowed this to continue just to keep living in the same style, I consider them culpable for this as well. Those mages who enabled the templars to crush other mages are nearly as guilty as the templars themselves.

[dragonflight288]

It's the double standard I take issue with:

 

 

Both men commit morally deplorable actions for what they see as the "greater good" yet one is justified to you because you hate an institution.

 

I see. Well, I don't justify Anders' actions in the least, and I've killed him in all but one of my playthroughs, and the one I did spare him was the same one I sided with Meredith for the achievement. 

[EmissaryofLies]

I wonder just how badly Kirkwall would have gone had not Anders acted. They wouldn't have seen Meredith coming.

[Grieving Natashina]

Anders spoke for those mages who'd been most heavily victimized by the Chantry. And those who were comfortable and obsequious enough to avoid the templars' wrath... well, if their comfort and silence is bought with the suffering of those less fortunate than they, and they allowed this to continue just to keep living in the same style, I consider them culpable for this as well. Those mages who enabled the templars to crush other mages are nearly as guilty as the templars themselves.

....

....

 

 

 

I'd ask if you were serious, but I know better.  Every mage that had a home in the Circle was indirectly responsible now?  What. In. Hades.

 

You've talked about at length that the mages had no choice with the Circles.  That it was either the Circles or death.  Now you're condemning the ones that made the most of a bad situation.  That those that were scared of being beaten or worse allowed this to happen?  My goddess...

 

Please bare in mind what your statement includes here, since you insist on such a broad general statement: So, a child/teenager that might have just gone to the Circle, that went because they were afraid that their families would be punished if they don't, is complicit in the Templars actions?  You're throwing one helluva a blanket there.  

 

Wow.  I'm going to take a nap.  Anyone want to continue to tackle this?

[Shadow Fox]

Anders spoke for those mages who'd been most heavily victimized by the Chantry. And those who were comfortable and obsequious enough to avoid the templars' wrath... well, if their comfort and silence is bought with the suffering of those less fortunate than they, and they allowed this to continue just to keep living in the same style, I consider them culpable for this as well. Those mages who enabled the templars to crush other mages are nearly as guilty as the templars themselves.

Weren't you the one who's been saying Anders didn't cause the ROA?

[The Elder King]

I see. Well, I don't justify Anders' actions in the least, and I've killed him in all but one of my playthroughs, and the one I did spare him was the same one I sided with Meredith for the achievement.

Whoah, that's harsh. Did you force him to join you?

[Xilizhra]

....

....

 

 

 

I'd ask if you were serious, but I know better.  Every mage that had a home in the Circle was indirectly responsible now?  What. In. Hades.

 

You've talked about at length that the mages had no choice with the Circles.  That it was either the Circles or death.  Now you're condemning the ones that made the most of a bad situation.  That those that were scared of being beaten or worse allowed this to happen?  My goddess...

 

Please bare in mind what your statement includes here, since you insist on such a broad general statement: So, a child/teenager that might have just gone to the Circle, that went because they were afraid that their families would be punished if they don't, is complicit in the Templars actions?  You're throwing one helluva a blanket there.  

 

Wow.  I'm going to take a nap.  Anyone want to continue to tackle this?

Actually, no. Aside from the Loyalists, whom frankly I would never trust, but they're all at least enchanter-level, so you won't get apprentices and the like. No, I refer primarily to those who prop the Circle up as opposed to the ones who just try to survive; those who collaborate with the templars instead of trying to avoid them. Those who work actively to perpetuate a system where teenagers are fed to demons and minds are raped for money.

[dragonflight288]

I wonder just how badly Kirkwall would have gone had not Anders acted. They wouldn't have seen Meredith coming.

 

Actually, I think another kind of rebellion would've happened anyway. A pro-mage Hawke can join up with some nobles who are organizing to take back the city, rebel against Meredith, and start running the city normally.

 

Meredith had effectively alienated the nobles, the common mundanes with her templar death squad, the mages, and, well, everyone. 

 

There already was a rebellion of templars led by Thrask to remove Meredith from power as they felt she had meddled with politics way too long and was no longer suited to be Knight-Commander. The nobles were organizing, and the commoners were watching every-day citizens slaughtered in the streets without anyone to appeal to, not even a magistrate.

 

 

Whoah, that's harsh. Did you force him to join you?

 

Yup. He got it started, it was his responsibility to see it through. 

[AresKeith]

 

Wow.  I'm going to take a nap.  Anyone want to continue to tackle this?

 

Lol no, I don't bother with statements like that

 

Whoah, that's harsh. Did you force him to join you?

 

I did 

[Xilizhra]

I would kill both Dragonflight's and Ares' Hawkes in that situation, if I was able.

[dragonflight288]

I would kill both Dragonflight's and Ares' Hawkes in that situation, if I was able.

 

lol. Don't worry, I did it for you and deleted said Hawke. 

[AresKeith]

I would kill both Dragonflight's and Ares' Hawkes in that situation, if I was able.

 

His fault and he paid the price for it

[EmissaryofLies]

Actually, I think another kind of rebellion would've happened anyway. A pro-mage Hawke can join up with some nobles who are organizing to take back the city, rebel against Meredith, and start running the city normally.

 

Meredith had effectively alienated the nobles, the common mundanes with her templar death squad, the mages, and, well, everyone. 

 

There already was a rebellion of templars led by Thrask to remove Meredith from power as they felt she had meddled with politics way too long and was no longer suited to be Knight-Commander. The nobles were organizing, and the commoners were watching every-day citizens slaughtered in the streets without anyone to appeal to, not even a magistrate.

 

 

But doesn't the Thrask rebellion fail miserably due to plot stupidity? See if that had worked out, I'd be the first one on the 'bad Anders' bandwagon, but it failed miserably and Meredith had turned into Cujo.

 

Won't deny that she had alienated a lot of people, but she still had her templars under her command, even with Cullen backing her.

 

I'm saying that with or without Anders, I see the annulment in Kirkwall happening regardless of outside interference. At that moment in time even the Divine was thinking about an exalted march and the seekers were no where to be found.

[spirosz]

I would kill both Dragonflight's and Ares' Hawkes in that situation, if I was able.

 

Rofl.  This guy, wait -- pause. 

[Divine Justinia V]

I'm saying that with or without Anders, I see the annulment in Kirkwall happening regardless of outside interference. At that moment in time even the Divine was thinking about an exalted march and the seekers were no where to be found.

 

Hell yeah it would've happened, I've said it time and time again, it was going to come. It was inevitable.

Do I agree with Anders speeding up the process? Of course not.

Do I understand his points? Yes. But that doesn't mean I support his actions. I just support his cause.

 

Meredith wanted that Circle annulled long before Anders even sought after the supplies for the actual concoction.

[Divine Justinia V]

I'd ask if you're serious but of course you are.

 

i'm out of likes but lmfao