503 réponses à ce sujet

[spirosz]

What if said Hawkes were baby-faced?  

 

[Shadow Fox]

I would kill both Dragonflight's and Ares' Hawkes in that situation, if I was able.

Not helping your case Xil.

[KaiserShep]

Anders spoke for those mages who'd been most heavily victimized by the Chantry. And those who were comfortable and obsequious enough to avoid the templars' wrath... well, if their comfort and silence is bought with the suffering of those less fortunate than they, and they allowed this to continue just to keep living in the same style, I consider them culpable for this as well. Those mages who enabled the templars to crush other mages are nearly as guilty as the templars themselves.

 

Basically, you're saying that the Circle mages are deserving of blame because they didn't have the temerity to get themselves killed in a revolt before the issue came to its boiling point. It's easy to call them obsequious from a more comfortable position, but sometimes, survival takes precedence over tossing your life away in a spat of righteous indignation.

[Xilizhra]

Basically, you're saying that the Circle mages are deserving of blame because they didn't have the temerity to get themselves killed in a revolt before the issue came to its boiling point. It's easy to call them obsequious from a more comfortable position, but sometimes, survival takes precedence over tossing your life away in a spat of righteous indignation.

See above for my clarification on that: my issue is with the active collaborators more than anything.

[Br3admax]

See above for my clarification on that: my issue is with the active collaborators more than anything.

My issue is with extremist who like to pretend that they speak for anyone but themselves. 

[The Hierophant]

Meh.

 

He assassinated Elthina because she was the only roadblock that was preventing Meredith from carrying out the RoA on Kirkwall's unprepared CoM as evidenced at the beginning of Act3.

 

"I removed the chance of compromise, because there is no compromise." - Anders

 

"We were already doomed. A quick death now or a slow one later - I'd rather die fighting."

 

"There can be no peace."

 

Don't get me wrong since i believe that Elthina shares blame for not being proactive like reporting Meredith's abuses while the latter was a psychopath, but compared to them Anders takes the cake for manipulating the latter in an effort to orchestrate an international conflict by turning Kirkwall's CoM into matyrs under his nihilistic cause.

[Steelcan]

As long as he stays dead idgaf

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Don't just pin the whole thing of Meredith, Anders deserves some of the blame also

Or the idol. Take your pick.

[Divine Justinia V]

Or the idol. Take your pick.

 

The three of them are meant for each other.

[spirosz]

My issue is with extremist who like to pretend that they speak for anyone but themselves. 

[Shadow Fox]

See above for my clarification on that: my issue is with the active collaborators more than anything.

Ignoring that some mages might prefer the Circle over being stoned to death by ignorant mundanes,abused by their parents,being forced to live in a slum or having to actually work simply because they're lazy.

[Steelcan]

Ignoring that some mages might prefer the Circle over being stoned to death by ignorant mundanes,abused by their parents,being forced to live in a slum or having to actually work simply because they're lazy.

As a lazy person I agree with this 100%

[KaiserShep]

See above for my clarification on that: my issue is with the active collaborators more than anything.

 

And what of hypocrites that willingly throw others into the fire to serve their own self-righteousness? It's as if he wanted the Knight-Commander to officially invoke the right of annulment just so the Circle can be dismantled. Never mind that this requires lots of innocent mages to be killed indiscriminately as a result. For all this talk about helping the less fortunate among his "kind", he sure tries hard to get them all killed. Hell, if Hawke did not intervene properly, he would've smitten Ella with Justice's falcon punch too. This is why he never leaves Kirkwall alive in my playthrough. Who knows what that daffy abomination will do next. Anders + Justice is like the magical Tommy from Goodfellas. Call him a demon and he'll wig out. Ain't nobody got time for that.

[Shadow Fox]

As a lazy person I agree with this 100%

Simply put not every mage is torn from his mother's arms and dragged to the Circle kicking and screaming by heartless Templars.

[Steelcan]

Simply put not every mage is torn from his mother's arms and dragged to the Circle kicking and screaming by heartless Templars.

Wynne rode on the shoulders of a friendly one after being left abandoned in a shed...

 

 

the horror?

[Zazzerka]

You know who else manipulates children under the guise of friendliness?

 

PEDOPHILES

[Steelcan]

You know who else manipulates children under the guise of friendliness?

 

PEDOPHILES

 

I thought commonwealth people spelt that with an "a" in there somewhere

[Zazzerka]

I thought commonwealth people spelt that with an "a" in there somewhere

 

I think we're meant to, but it just looks pretentious. Like if you wrote "encyclopaedia."

[Steelcan]

I think we're meant to, but it just looks pretentious. Like if you wrote "encyclopaedia."

 

And yet more evidence of the superioirty of the American vernacular emerges

[Zazzerka]

And yet more evidence of the superioirty of the American vernacular emerges

 

An arrogant American. Colour me shocked.

 

Anyway, this Anders guy. What a nut.

[Lulupab]

 

Incidentally, this is total nonsense. There are loads of drastic changes that have happened peacefully, and without extreme violence.

 

Take the abolition of slavery, for instance. Only a few countries ended up submitting the issue of slavery to the trial of war, like the United States and Haiti. Britain abolished slavery peacefully. So too did France (more or less...it's complicated). Same with Russia. The Ottoman Empire. Spain. Portugal. Brazil. That's a humongous change - the release of human beings from bondage - and it didn't require a John Brown an Anders to do it in most countries.

 

Or, for another example, the revolutions in the Eastern Bloc states in the late 1980s and early 1990s. No one needed to slaughter a bunch of Komsomol members or whatever to kickstart a war to bring down communism. By and large, the Revolutions of 1989 and the events surrounding them were relatively bloodless, with most of the few people who were killed being the most egregious criminals under the previous regimes (e.g. the Ceaușescus of Romania).

 

So radical change can happen without radical amounts of violence. It's people like Anders, who deliberately radicalize a situation by murdering innocents, who do their level best to prevent that from happening.

 

I want to tantrum and throw my tablet out of the window when I see people  try to apply the norms of a post merchantile democratic society in a pre-merchantile feudal society. There was no way in hell mages could get free "radically". You are delusional if you think otherwise.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I want to tantrum and throw my tablet out of the window when I see people  try to apply the norms of a post merchantile democratic society in a pre-merchantile feudal society. There was no way in hell mages could get free "radically". You are delusional if you think otherwise.

Hey, this Pre-Merchantile Feudal society has also done away with sexism for the most part as well as racism amongst their own race for the most part, so Thedas doesn't really fit any Earth timetable. In some ways, it is feudal. In others, they are more tolerant than we ever were and in some cases are. 

[Lulupab]

Hey, this Pre-Merchantile Feudal society has also done away with sexism for the most part as well as racism amongst their own race for the most part, so Thedas doesn't really fit any Earth timetable. In some ways, it is feudal. In others, they are more tolerant than we ever were and in some cases are. 

 

I was not talking about "tolerance" per se. Nowadays such an act of terrorism is abhorrent, inexcusable and not an effective carrier of change. People react to exercises of strength or violence in a different manner and a non agressive approach is much more plausible because most of our societies have democratic regimes or even before those at least in the past 3 centuries there was a diffusion of authority because of merchantile strength and the rise of the burgeois against the feudal system. Dragon Age is clearly a feudal society and not a particularly enlightened one politically. The common people have no electoral power and very minor purchasing power. The feudal lords have very limited electoral power which is under the constant censure of military and religious power centers. Ferelden is perhaps further advanced because its existence is in opposition to Orlais; their nationalism is defined in opposition to Orlesian norms. Kirkwall is much different. Its viscounts are presented to have ruled under the approval of the chantry and templars. If the common people rebelled against Meredith, she would simply put them down; in fact Leliana makes it pretty clear that the Divine might well put the entire city to the torch.

 

In this balance, one should consider the choice made by Anders. Perhaps change could be accomplished with a moderate approach but it would not take decades, but rather centuries. Not until the economic and political structures could support rights movements would the Mages be able to tap to the concordance of the collective to force political reforms. In this time we are weighing a likely short though violent war against the current situation. Templars do not simply incarcerate mages. There are extensive instances of molestation and rape, constant psychological violence, and the right of tranquility which is murder of mind but also largely economical exploitation; the skills of the Tranquil in enchantment partly fund the Chantry and the Templars. All I am saying is, do not compare what Anders did with examples of social reforms in the past century cause there is no analogy. Rather consider any instances of actual social reform taking place peacefully in the Dark Ages.

[TheLittleBird]

I also believe that what Anders did was clearly out of necessity. I won't go comparing this situation to our world, since, well, it's Thedas..... not Europe or something.

 

The whole situation in Kirkwall contributed to Anders' act of 'Justice'. The way I see it, he saw no other way out than with extreme violence and took it; to see his 'dream' come true. Meredith was leading the city, and only Meredith herself could inspire revolution.

How? By removing the final barrier to invoking the Right of Annulment. In my view, Anders did not kill the Grand Cleric to unleash conflict within Kirkwall, but simply to have the Circle annulled, which would mean that Meredith did something unforgivable to the rest of the Andrastian Chantry-world. And this would inspire rebellion in Circles of Magi all over those areas. Oh, and this is why he had to die, which I've already explained a few pages back.