503 réponses à ce sujet

[Shadow Fox]

or they could give them a land, a less used land.

Because that worked out so well for the Dalish right?

[Dean_the_Young]

Also we are not in FIona's thought. Thinking she didn't know what she was doing is ignorant. The postmodern novels no longer have omniscient narrators. You cannot claim anything about anyone's thought unless its deliberately mentioned in the story. That's what makes them great.

 

We can, however, look at their actions and positions known to date- which certainly do not speak of preparing the groundwork for revolution in advance. Where are the alliances, the militarization of the magi, the preparation of defenses and logistics? Where are the indications that they have sought outside intervention on their behalf, or tried to rally public opinion, or even entertain the favor and assistance of the Chantry?

 

To this point, any Mage 'victory' in Inquisition will be in spite of their leadership, not because of it.

[Master Warder Z_]

Once again i love you Dean 

 

Although...It is slightly odd you tend to be able to beat me to my own points just ever so slightly before i get around to begining.

[Gregolian]

Anders is responsible for what Anders did just like Loghain is responsible for stuff he did.

 

I like Anders but it doesn't change the fact that what he did was extreme.  He could have gone in and bombed the Templar barracks, or poisoned Meredith, or do any of a number of things.

 

What he did ended up killing Elthina who in my opinion had nothing to do with how crazy Meredith was going.  HELL, Anders had more reason to get made at Hawke, Varric, and Bartrand for finding that idol she turns into a sword and makes her go paranoid nuts between Act II and Act III than he did to get made at Elthina.

 

I just want this Anders back:

 

Yeah, he was a bit of a jerkoff still but he wasn't a damn terrorist.

[Xilizhra]

We can, however, look at their actions and positions known to date- which certainly do not speak of preparing the groundwork for revolution in advance. Where are the alliances, the militarization of the magi, the preparation of defenses and logistics? Where are the indications that they have sought outside intervention on their behalf, or tried to rally public opinion, or even entertain the favor and assistance of the Chantry?

 

To this point, any Mage 'victory' in Inquisition will be in spite of their leadership, not because of it.

The first three would be impossible with templar scrutiny. Rallies for public opinion have happened; Orsino performed one in DA2, at the very least. And the Chantry has never really been in a position to be friendly to the mages.

[Dean_the_Young]

Freedom isn't something to be concerned with.

What is of concern are the new robes that have been brought to the circle. What is of concern is spaghetti Tuesday on a Wednesday. What concerns mages, are the filing of their nails. What is of paramount importance is the new model of bunk bed. That is what concerns us. For it is the meaning of life.

 

How many liberal-inclined societies have you seen that didn't have regular food already planned? Or who struggled to have any safe bed and sleeping place? Or struggled to meet basic needs and security, like much of Thedas?

 

Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs is legit- freedom doesn't fill bellies, and people won't prioritize emotional/philosophical needs and desires until the foundational needs are secure. There's a reason why Marx/early revolutionaries believed that socialist revolution and thought would arise from the bourgeois rather than peasants: they would be the ones educated, established, and comfortable enough to experiment with revolution.

[Xilizhra]

How many liberal-inclined societies have you seen that didn't have regular food already planned? Or who struggled to have any safe bed and sleeping place? Or struggled to meet basic needs and security, like much of Thedas?

 

Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs is legit- freedom doesn't fill bellies, and people won't prioritize emotional/philosophical needs and desires until the foundational needs are secure. There's a reason why Marx/early revolutionaries believed that socialist revolution and thought would arise from the bourgeois rather than peasants: they would be the ones educated, established, and comfortable enough to experiment with revolution.

Which would be, of course, why the mages are the ones rebelling to begin with and not the peasants. What you seem to be saying that if one is in position to start a rebellion, one cannot legitimately rebel; in my opinion, mages are in the sweet spot of having enough ability to experiment with the concept while at the same time in a living situation bad enough to make it justifiable.

[Dean_the_Young]

The first three would be impossible with templar scrutiny. Rallies for public opinion have happened; Orsino performed one in DA2, at the very least. And the Chantry has never really been in a position to be friendly to the mages.

 

It would be quite possible for a better prepared and wiser leadership. Especially Fiona, who as a Warden-Mage outsider had plenty of leeway and freedom to organize influence even without resorting to the mage's own secretive avenues under Templar scrutiny.

 

The Chantry is the most relevant and best placed potential ally and friend the mages have. It is the single group in Thedas with the legitimacy, authority, reach, respect, ideological compatibility, and leadership willing to make things better for the mages.

 

Orisino's performance in DA2 was, how to say it kindly, mage-centric and pitiful. Kind of like Ander's manifesto and dialogue efforts to convince people to approve of mage freedom, but spends far more time talking about how mages deserve sympathy rather than making universal appeals that would benefit and make common cause with the commoners. Mage freedom ideology to date has been far more interested in the mage than the freedom part, which would be far more relevant to mundanes who lack it as well as the education and resources mages receive and take for granted.

[pallascedar]

Anders is responsible for what Anders did just like Loghain is responsible for stuff he did.

I like Anders but it doesn't change the fact that what he did was extreme. He could have gone in and bombed the Templar barracks, or poisoned Meredith, or do any of a number of things.

Edit: Didn't realize you were talking about old Anders!

What he did ended up killing Elthina who in my opinion had nothing to do with how crazy Meredith was going. HELL, Anders had more reason to get made at Hawke, Varric, and Bartrand for finding that idol she turns into a sword and makes her go paranoid nuts between Act II and Act III than he did to get made at Elthina.

I just want this Anders back:


Yeah, he was a bit of a jerkoff still but he wasn't a damn terrorist.

I think killing non combatants in an attempt to iinspire an emotional reaction (namely one of fear) is the definition of terrorism.

That being said, while Elthina was kindly she was thoroughly useless. I blame her inaction for almost every event that happened in Kirkwall.

[Dean_the_Young]

Which would be, of course, why the mages are the ones rebelling to begin with and not the peasants. What you seem to be saying that if one is in position to start a rebellion, one cannot legitimately rebel; in my opinion, mages are in the sweet spot of having enough ability to experiment with the concept while at the same time in a living situation bad enough to make it justifiable.

 

Incorrect: in fact, the fact that the Soviet Revolution was a peasant revolution rather than one of the middle class is one of the most important aspects and discrediting factors of the Marxist orthodoxy. The Soviet Union spent decades trying to work around the fact that you don't need to be middle class to rebel: even the lowest classes will revolt if their core needs aren't being met.

 

What matters is that when a revolutionary movement is coming from the middle or upper class, it works against itself and loses credibility when it attempts to argue that it is in the worst position of them all. When people claim the mages have no rights or privilages and live in unbearable conditions, it's a mark of a lack of perspective towards those who are lower classes who have it worse and are looking up at the mages. From a viewpoint of someone not particularly involved or invested, the mage rebellion is as more an already privileged class seeking more rights and privilages than it is a bottom class rising up.

[MrMrPendragon]

Wow I never noticed how similar their stories are lol.

 

But I guess some people killed Anders, some people let him live. So in the case where he's alive, I guess full Vengeance Anders isn't that big of a stretch. I'm assuming with the Veil being torn, Justice would be I guess "closer" to the fade since the physical realm and the fade are joined, making it easier for him to take over.

[Dean_the_Young]

Once again i love you Dean 

 

 

Sorry, my heart belongs to another.

 

Sigh, internet crushes...

 

 

 

 

Although...It is slightly odd you tend to be able to beat me to my own points just ever so slightly before i get around to begining.

 

My time-traveling parents of extraterrestrial origin read me 'The Astonishing Secret of Awesome Man' as a child.

[Xilizhra]

Incorrect: in fact, the fact that the Soviet Revolution was a peasant revolution rather than one of the middle class is one of the most important aspects and discrediting factors of the Marxist orthodoxy. The Soviet Union spent decades trying to work around the fact that you don't need to be middle class to rebel: even the lowest classes will revolt if their core needs aren't being met.

 

What matters is that when a revolutionary movement is coming from the middle or upper class, it works against itself and loses credibility when it attempts to argue that it is in the worst position of them all. When people claim the mages have no rights or privilages and live in unbearable conditions, it's a mark of a lack of perspective towards those who are lower classes who have it worse and are looking up at the mages. From a viewpoint of someone not particularly involved or invested, the mage rebellion is as more an already privileged class seeking more rights and privilages than it is a bottom class rising up.

I don't think we've ever once heard anyone look upon mages with envy. Fear, hatred, sometimes awe perhaps, but never envy. Unless you count Dagna, who isn't worried about living conditions and also isn't Andrastian. In any case, it seems unlikely to me that your average Thedosian will look upon the mages as a particularly privileged class; it's not like any of them have ever been inside the Circle and wouldn't emotionally connect it with decent living quarters, just "that scary tower where they lock up scary people." I've never even heard any templars make the argument that mages should already be satisfied with how they live now, so it's unlikely even to be used as propaganda.

[Anvos]

I think there are a few, but talking about mages and templars in general is derailing the thread towards being another mage vs templar argument instead of about what if any role Anders should have in DAI.

[pallascedar]

I think there are a few, but talking about mages and templars in general is derailing the thread towards being another mage vs templar argument instead of about what if any role Anders should have in DAI.

I don't think it's possible to talk about Anders without talking about the conflict.

[Dean_the_Young]

I don't think we've ever once heard anyone look upon mages with envy. Fear, hatred, sometimes awe perhaps, but never envy. Unless you count Dagna, who isn't worried about living conditions and also isn't Andrastian. In any case, it seems unlikely to me that your average Thedosian will look upon the mages as a particularly privileged class; it's not like any of them have ever been inside the Circle and wouldn't emotionally connect it with decent living quarters, just "that scary tower where they lock up scary people." I've never even heard any templars make the argument that mages should already be satisfied with how they live now, so it's unlikely even to be used as propaganda.

 

To a degree. The average Thedosian probably knows as much about the living conditions of the mages as they know about the mages- the ones who know the least are also least likely to appreciate the plight of the mages either, and think the scary people are best in the scary tower under safe watch and key.

 

Class consciousness and economic awareness is a pretty blank area of Thedasian public awareness, and I'll fully admit I put more weight on it than the in-lore setting would justify- it's an argument I make more because BSN-ers understand it better than 'Hey, those people? They think equal rights be silly.' The idea of fear/suspicion/distrust of the One Percent (which, really, the mages qualify for on multiple levels) is something that a modern audience, the BSN audience, can empathize and start to understand. You can certainly victimize and unfairly treat the One Percent- but recognizing that they are the One Percent frequently brings more objectivity and emotional distance to the observor's views on claims of oppression. Everyone loves the underdog- but the rich? The extremely educated? The materially well off? The people with money, quality clothes, luxury goods, exclusive health care, significant security that removes common fears and insecurities and makes for one hell of a gated community? Appeals to oppression, even when grounded in truth, are less compelling.

[Grieving Natashina]

I don't think it's possible to talk about Anders without talking about the conflict.

Sad but true.  At least the majority mage vs templar discussions are taking place in only two threads (this and the Uneven Representation thread.)  

[Xilizhra]

To a degree. The average Thedosian probably knows as much about the living conditions of the mages as they know about the mages- the ones who know the least are also least likely to appreciate the plight of the mages either, and think the scary people are best in the scary tower under safe watch and key.

 

Class consciousness and economic awareness is a pretty blank area of Thedasian public awareness, and I'll fully admit I put more weight on it than the in-lore setting would justify- it's an argument I make more because BSN-ers understand it better than 'Hey, those people? They think equal rights be silly.' The idea of fear/suspicion/distrust of the One Percent (which, really, the mages qualify for on multiple levels) is something that a modern audience, the BSN audience, can empathize and start to understand. You can certainly victimize and unfairly treat the One Percent- but recognizing that they are the One Percent frequently brings more objectivity and emotional distance to the observor's views on claims of oppression. Everyone loves the underdog- but the rich? The extremely educated? The materially well off? The people with money, quality clothes, luxury goods, exclusive health care, significant security that removes common fears and insecurities and makes for one hell of a gated community? Appeals to oppression, even when grounded in truth, are less compelling.

Well, now a good portion of their former watchers have gone rogue and started burning down villages while being clearly tainted by magic themselves, so who knows what they'll think between those two sides?

 

I also wouldn't say that mages are the One Percent any more than I'd say that they're chattel slaves, because their situation isn't directly comparable to anyone IRL. The fact remains that mages are the underdog against a society that has far too much of its power structure invested in despising them, and that your and others' economic comparisons appear to be grounded in part in falsehood. I don't see why you can't just say that the people don't care about equal rights; their treatment of elves certainly drives that home well enough.

[Master Warder Z_]

Sorry, my heart belongs to another.

 

Sigh, internet crushes...

 

 

My time-traveling parents of extraterrestrial origin read me 'The Astonishing Secret of Awesome Man' as a child.

 

You deny my affection?

 

 

And that does explain it doesn't it?

[Ryzaki]

Don't worry he rejected me too ;_;

[Shadow Fox]

To a degree. The average Thedosian probably knows as much about the living conditions of the mages as they know about the mages- the ones who know the least are also least likely to appreciate the plight of the mages either, and think the scary people are best in the scary tower under safe watch and key.

 

Class consciousness and economic awareness is a pretty blank area of Thedasian public awareness, and I'll fully admit I put more weight on it than the in-lore setting would justify- it's an argument I make more because BSN-ers understand it better than 'Hey, those people? They think equal rights be silly.' The idea of fear/suspicion/distrust of the One Percent (which, really, the mages qualify for on multiple levels) is something that a modern audience, the BSN audience, can empathize and start to understand. You can certainly victimize and unfairly treat the One Percent- but recognizing that they are the One Percent frequently brings more objectivity and emotional distance to the observor's views on claims of oppression. Everyone loves the underdog- but the rich? The extremely educated? The materially well off? The people with money, quality clothes, luxury goods, exclusive health care, significant security that removes common fears and insecurities and makes for one hell of a gated community? Appeals to oppression, even when grounded in truth, are less compelling.

That's the thing that gets me:

 

People act like the mages are the only ones who are unjustly oppressed and are therefore entitled to freedoms the average Thedosian doesn't even have.

 

Where are all these social rights crusaders for the peasants,Casteless and City Elves?

[Grieving Natashina]

That's the thing that gets me:

 

People act like the mages are the only ones who are unjustly oppressed and are therefore entitled to freedoms the average Thedosian doesn't even have.

 

Where are all these social rights crusaders for the peasants,Casteless and City Elves?

You're not alone on these thoughts.

[EmissaryofLies]

The fact that you cease deeming it a compromise is rather the problem with compromises of systemic practices: eventually, someone else will deem the original reasons invalid and not care, and then ignore the nature or basis of previous concessions. Benefits and concessions are taken for granted and considered expectations rather than, well, compromises.
 
It's rather hard to have a meaningful negotiation with the types of people who constantly push for more without regard to what has already been given, and the temporary nature of all achievements and gains.

You’re goddamn right the mages don’t care. As of right now, the circle mages in Thedas do not care to the point that they’ve seceded from the Chantry. Taken for granted vs what? Being treated like a saarebas or annulled? You say that as if the Chantry has done the mages a favor, when their twenty one annulments and the condition of some circles screams otherwise.

So that’s why mages like Adain of Starkhaven are willing to risk their lives against the harshest of conditions, because as you would imply, they are ungrateful or greedy and will ‘push for more’? What more can the mages want than to be taken from their families unlikely to ever see them again. What more can they want than to be subjugated to whatever temperament of KC fate thrusts upon them?

 

Creature comforts are privileges. Given that Annulments are rare and being locked in a tower for life is a proven exaggeration, you're really just demonstrating the flaws of people who don't understand the nature of the situation they're in.

Annulments being rare is  irrelevant. They happen, and they can happen for the most arbitrary and idiotic of reasons. But that doesn’t matter because the mages should be grateful of their beds and robes nevermind the Templar abusing their friend and lists of ‘to be made tranquil’. Which may or may not be voluntary. How peachy.

You demonstrate the flaws of people who get to pack it up and go home to their families at the end of the day. They are not exposed to what may or may not be going on in that tower. Out of sight, out of mind. But I think mages like Alain can clue you in.
 

The power of life or death over someone isn't slavery. It's simply the power of life or death: any person with a gun nearby you has the same.
 
Slavery is a particular sort of relationship whose primary characterization is two things: the status of a person as property and being required to work for the profit of the owner. Mages are neither: they are not property, they are not forced to work, and the work they do perform goes to the Circle and not the Chantry.
 
The mages do have recourses to Templar abuses: the system can be deemed insufficient or outright broken, but it does exist. Mages do have rights against the Templars, do have a non-Templar authority to appeal to, and are not under martial law and forced to obey any Templar demand.

Mages are property that is thrust into war whenever the Chantry deems fit and then put back inside its cage and given belly rubs by its lion tamers.

For an institution that doesn’t deem mages as property, they sure do treat them as such. Mages have to beg and plead for any mobility and some do not get any sort of freedom until they are old and gray. Others not at all. Not to mention the phylacteries which can be thought of as slave collars. Not to mention that they are hunted relentlessly to the point where they can never stand still lest their masters catch them.

Don’t get me wrong, they’re pampered slaves. But slaves nonetheless. Rights are not rights if they can be taken away. The Templars can take mage rights away whenever they please and judging from Co-Templar behavior, they’ll get away it.

I have no idea where you’re coming up with these pleasantville beliefs about the state of the circle system. Especially when the people of said system have rebelled against it uniformly.

[Master Warder Z_]

That's the thing that gets me:

 

People act like the mages are the only ones who are unjustly oppressed and are therefore entitled to freedoms the average Thedosian doesn't even have.

 

Where are all these social rights crusaders for the peasants,Casteless and City Elves?

 

The Argument for that i most often encounter?

 

"Well those people CAN and i stress the word "CAN" elevate themselves above their station, never mind about mages being able to do the same, its an equally rare occurrence.

 

But you have Elven Templars, You can Have Wealthy Elves, You have Peasants that are knighted and become freeholders, And you have Casteless become Paragons.

 

Point being Thedas is a Feudalistic place and its measurement on the rights of the Individuals is fairly small.

[Gregolian]

I think killing non combatants in an attempt to iinspire an emotional reaction (namely one of fear) is the definition of terrorism.

That being said, while Elthina was kindly she was thoroughly useless. I blame her inaction for almost every event that happened in Kirkwall.

I see that.  BUT, Meredith and the Templars are supposed to be what Elthina can use to enforce her decisions.  If Meredith tells Elthina to take a hike what exactly can she do?

 

I know the Seekers exist...  but it still seems like Elthina is a character stuck between a rock and a hard place.