503 réponses à ce sujet

[AresKeith]

And she espouses a very different stance in Pro Templar Playthroughs acknowledging that the Templars have their reasons, in this i'd infer with her agreeing that the circle for the most part is the best situation,.This is expanded upon especially true of a Gray Warden Bethany whom is initially shocked by the Champions choice to support the Templars but relents given the current crisis.

 

Bethany isn't a voice of Mage freedom.

 

She's a product of PC decisions.

 

DA2 sure knows how it make itself hard to use as an example

[Master Warder Z_]

Except that is the scenario with Bethany that was being addressed, where the Champion sided with the Circle.

 

I know it is just.

 

 

DA2 sure knows how it make itself hard to use as an example

 

That.

 

[Aurelet]

Sorry, in my view Anders deserves just as much blame. He knew how Meredith would react and played her into doing exactly what she did. 

Wait....You actually think someone in DA2 was that smart?

[Reaverwind]

Not that Bethany shows any sort of reluctance in killing Templars. She pretty much agrees with Anders' views but she doesn't want to employ violence. She is nice like that. (refer to party banter between the two). She wants to be free and not be bound for an accident of birth.

 

No one is claiming anything but there is no proof whatsoever that there were children inside. The exact game scene shows around 10 people, Elthina and a couple of priests and templars. You can claim there were more but cannot claim they were children.

 

Anders is product of chantry. His own parents hated him because of chantry propaganda and he was in solitude of circle prison for many years, lost people he cared about etc.... All events of Anders' life which stem from chantry affected his whole personality. Their own hate and oppression exploded in their own face, literally in form of Anders. Maybe that particular chantry didn't deserve it, the chantry in general deserved it and then some.

 

What Bethany felt doesn't change the situation. And Anders thought his life was bad? He should try being an elf. That's part of his problem - he can't see past the end of his own nose. He could have really have started something, by reaching out to and uniting the different disenfranchised groups. Instead, he decides to add fuel to the fire.

 

The Chantry is a house of worship. It stands to reason that there were families within, despite the fact they were never depicted. Considering that Kirkwall also supposedly had a large population never shown in-game, and that the explosion wasn't confined to the Chantry, I'm confident in claiming that children were among the casualties. 

[Lulupab]

What Bethany felt doesn't change the situation. And Anders thought his life was bad? He should try being an elf. That's part of his problem - he can't see past the end of his own nose. He could have really have started something, by reaching out to and uniting the different disenfranchised groups. Instead, he decides to add fuel to the fire.

 

The Chantry is a house of worship. It stands to reason that there were families within, despite the fact they were never depicted. Considering that Kirkwall also supposedly had a large population never shown in-game, and that the explosion wasn't confined to the Chantry, I'm confident in claiming that children were among the casualties. 

 

As Lob sayd "I believe there was debate about whether anyone besides the clergy and the templars would be present during the explosion, since the Kirkwall Chantry was apparently closed to the public at night, given how Hawke fights templars and Petrice's zealots there during Acts I and II." 

 

Anders actually sparks the fuel, the fuel was already there. This is not about whether what Anders did was right or wrong its about killing him or sparing him. I personally wanted a change in the way mages were handled in Thedas and I seriously doubt it could have been done without violence. Not that the chantry doesn't deserve every single bit. 

[Helios969]

^Yes, cause the Tevinter Imperium handles things so much better.

[Will-o'-wisp]

Man, this is so wrong, are you even reading what you're writing? The chantry deserves every single bit of violence? What do you think the Chantry is, some ominous evil Organisation of moustache-twirling oppressors and mage-murderers?

 

No, the chantry consists of men and women who believe in the maker, depending on what definition of chantry you give that would probably be about 90% of all southern Theodosians. I guess you only meant the Brothers and sisters officially belonging to the church as an organization, but still that's the exact same as saying "all mages deserve to be tranquilized and/or killed". Leliana was a part of the chantry in Lothering as much as all the other sisters there and the templars who helped the warden. Do they deserve to be violently killed just to prove some lunatics point?

 

It can be assumed that the casualties of the explosion were pretty high, because it ripped the chantry apart and blew its parts all across the City. Even if that wasn't the case ist a fact that Anders simply didn't care who he killed, he just wanted things to escalate, because he didn't see any other option than violence anymore and that's one more reason for me to consider him a pathetic hypocrite.

 

But anyway, back on Topic: Maybe that's something Anders-related that could be clarified in DA:I - how bad the explosion hit Kirkwall, what exactly were his motives behind this or if it was just justice/vengeance telling him to blow **** up.

 

(I meant to Quote Lulupab btw. but it didn't work for some reason )

[Lulupab]

Man, this is so wrong, are you even reading what you're writing? The chantry deserves every single bit of violence? What do you think the Chantry is, some ominous evil Organisation of moustache-twirling oppressors and mage-murderers?

 

No, the chantry consists of men and women who believe in the maker, depending on what definition of chantry you give that would probably be about 90% of all southern Theodosians. I guess you only meant the Brothers and sisters officially belonging to the church as an organization, but still that's the exact same as saying "all mages deserve to be tranquilized and/or killed". Leliana was a part of the chantry in Lothering as much as all the other sisters there and the templars who helped the warden. Do they deserve to be violently killed just to prove some lunatics point?

 

It can be assumed that the casualties of the explosion were pretty high, because it ripped the chantry apart and blew its parts all across the City. Even if that wasn't the case ist a fact that Anders simply didn't care who he killed, he just wanted things to escalate, because he didn't see any other option than violence anymore and that's one more reason for me to consider him a pathetic hypocrite.

 

But anyway, back on Topic: Maybe that's something Anders-related that could be clarified in DA:I - how bad the explosion hit Kirkwall, what exactly were his motives behind this or if it was just justice/vengeance telling him to blow **** up.

 

(I meant to Quote Lulupab btw. but it didn't work for some reason )

 

Anders himself never questioned that what he did was wrong. He fully acknowledges that his actions were murder, and were morally contemptible, and that justice was required of him for what he did. What he understood is that it wasn't about right or wrong, it was about necessity. He believed that the system of imprisoning mages within Circles, under the watch of the Chantry's templars, was wrong, and would accept nothing less than total freedom. And with that, he understood that unless someone was willing to take drastic measures, then nothing ever would change. He knew that the templars would rise against mages everywhere for his action, and that therefore all the mages locked within Circle towers would be forced to rise up against the templars in order to save themselves. By his actions, no mages would be able to take, say, Wynne's position that the templars and Circles are necessary, except for those mages who hated their own magic and wanted to embrace imprisonment or even suicide. They would have to either submit to templar tyranny, or fight to save their own lives. By extension, he/<?<:|emoved middle-of-the-road templars who weren't quite so eager to terrorize the mages under their watch. So he removed any stalemate--"there can be no compromise"--in the name of ending an indisputably broken system that served no one.

 

The bottom line is that what Anders did was reprehensible. It was murder, without question, and the murder of innocents is NEVER justified. Having said that, it is also completely and utterly true that the kind of change he was advocating for would NEVER have happened otherwise. There's just no getting around it: in the real world you see example after example of drastic, permanent changes being made in the world for the GOOD. What nobody ever likes to talk about is that good people, innocent people, can and DO die in the process. The point was also made fictitiously with Andraste: she threw down the Imperium and freed the slaves, and created the Chantry. But she was also a conquering warlord. People DIED because of her, and not all of those people were servants of the Imperium. Many children and innocents died.

 

Also nothing is pure evil in Thedas, and that applies to chantry too. It all comes to how grey is it? How much does the black outgrew the white?

[Helios969]

Nothing is pure evil?  How 'bout Darkspawn?  I'll throw in slavers too.  Love to kill the slavers.

 

I'm sure you mean organizations.  Which is true.  Organizations are made up of many people, so they can never be classified as evil.  Which includes the Templars, Chantry, Circle, etc.  They are made up of many good people, some bad, and far more that cannot be easily classified into such abstract confines.  When Anders blew up the Chantry he marked them all as enemies to be destroyed whether they deserved it or not.

 

Let's turn this around.  If for example, Fenris had blown up the Circle Tower because of his disdain for mages, my retribution would have been equally as swift.  People like Anders cannot be put into any other category but terrorist.  Rationalize him, romanticize him, idealize him if you want, but try to imagine if your family member(s) had been some of his victims and you'd likely not be so forgiving.  At the end of the day Anders was a plot device.  The writer(s) wanted carnage and anarchy for DAI, so Anders set the world ablaze. 

[Lulupab]

Nothing is pure evil?  How 'bout Darkspawn?  I'll throw in slavers too.  Love to kill the slavers.

 

I'm sure you mean organizations.  Which is true.  Organizations are made up of many people, so they can never be classified as evil.  Which includes the Templars, Chantry, Circle, etc.  They are made up of many good people, some bad, and far more that cannot be easily classified into such abstract confines.  When Anders blew up the Chantry he marked them all as enemies to be destroyed whether they deserved it or not.

 

Let's turn this around.  If for example, Fenris had blown up the Circle Tower because of his disdain for mages, my retribution would have been equally as swift.  People like Anders cannot be put into any other category but terrorist.  Rationalize him, romanticize him, idealize him if you want, but try to imagine if your family member(s) had been some of his victims and you'd likely not be so forgiving.  At the end of the day Anders was a plot device.  The writer(s) wanted carnage and anarchy for DAI, so Anders set the world ablaze. 

 

Yes I meant organizations. The organization of Chantry had it coming, for a long time in fact.

 

The point to take away from all this is not that Anders was a hero; I'm not making that argument at all. He didn't mean to be a hero for the cause of mages, he didn't mean to be a martyr. He meant only to bring about a complete end to the world's practice of imprisoning mages within the Circles, and he understood that to do that would require that someone get their hands bloody. He decided that he would be willing to do that, be willing to be the person who committed a heinous act so that no one else would have to. He was fully aware that his actions were evil and that they would trigger a war. But he knew that if that act of murder was not done, then the system of the Chantry and templars and mages and phylacteries would continue unabated forever.

 

In this, he was a tragic figure, taking it upon himself to be the reviled murderer so that other people would have the freedom to condemn his actions. Like it or not, that is a very realistic, real-world scenario. For every Martin Luther King or Anne Frank or Rosa Parks or Gandhi you see in the world, there are people in background with blood on their hands who give the rest of the world the opportunity to take the moral high road. Their actions ARE despicable, but that doesn't make them any less necessary. This is the point that the rest of us are missing, from our very comfortable positions in life: being able to take the high road and condemn the actions of murderous freedom fighters is, sometimes, not recognized for what it is: a luxury that we would NOT HAVE if not for those murderers giving the rest of the world something to rally around. This all depends on your view of the war. If you are pro-mage then you should by now realize its a necessary evil.

 

Also if Fenris did such a thing do you think people would blame a whole other people for his crime? No HE alone would pay for that, not all mages like in Anders' case. Anders did what he did to ensure this would never happen and mages should be treated like real people, hence better to die now than slowly under Templar scrutiny.

[Helios969]

Disagree.  I think he was very calculating about becoming a martyr.  You could argue killing him is exactly what he wants.  And I obliged.

 

In the Fenris hypothetical you have to imagine the whole dynamic being reversed.  Mages in authority...Templars subordinate. I also can't help but point out siding with the mages you end up fighting as many (or more) abominations than Templars.  WTF?!  Anyway isn't this argument about whether to spare him or not?  I really don't believe either side is worthy of support, and would have hopped onto Isabel's ship with my companions and watched Kirkwall burn as we sailed away.  Wasn't given that choice.

 

Off to work...have a great day.

[Lulupab]

Its kinda annoying that I make a long argument only to see personal opinion without any real argument... You ignored many points I tried to make and jumped onto your personal feelings about the war, Anders etc...

 

Fine. As mighty gaga said solving world hunger is easier than trying to make someone change their opinion. If you wanted to agree to disagree you should have said so. There is no room for argument in such a case.

[TheLittleBird]

I agree with Lulupab. Anders did what he did out of necessity. He knew that there was little to no other solution to free mages from Templar oppression, and he knew that he was signing his own death sentence with what he did.

 

And my Hawke killed him. Because he had, at that point, also signed Bethany's death sentence. And, as I explained earlier, with my Hawke it's 'family above all'. She knew of course that Anders did what he did because it was necessary, but she still believed there could have been another way.

What Bethany thinks about whether killing Templars is right or not doesn't really matter here. All that matters (at least to my Hawke) is that her life was put in jeopardy by Anders' actions.

[Raven_26]

going back on topic, we know that the warden and hawke might make cameo. I hope that in case of hawke, s/he will show up with the romance option you chose.

[Mistic]

The bottom line is that what Anders did was reprehensible. It was murder, without question, and the murder of innocents is NEVER justified. Having said that, it is also completely and utterly true that the kind of change he was advocating for would NEVER have happened otherwise. There's just no getting around it: in the real world you see example after example of drastic, permanent changes being made in the world for the GOOD. What nobody ever likes to talk about is that good people, innocent people, can and DO die in the process. The point was also made fictitiously with Andraste: she threw down the Imperium and freed the slaves, and created the Chantry. But she was also a conquering warlord. People DIED because of her, and not all of those people were servants of the Imperium. Many children and innocents died.

 

As much as I hate what Anders did, I have to agree with this. Drastic changes aren't possible without drastic measures. And that means that many innocents will get tramped underfoot. Damn. Anders at least was honest enough to recognize that and submit to your judgement (hell, you could make him kill mages for the Templars, in an incredible twist of events).

 

Andraste is a very good example, now that you mention it. Let's imagine a game set in those early days.

 

Tevinter was THE civilization. If you wanted law and order, it was Tevinter or nothing else. Of course, those in charge abused their powers often, but every system has its faults, doesn't it? Ok, there was a Blight that weakened it, but you can always count on the Grey Wardens to save the day. Oh, yeah, those elves are asking for their freedom and accusing us humans of stealing their culture and immortality. Bigoted extremists! But there will be always some nice magister that will want to change things, so wait and let them work.

 

"Oh, no! Barbarian hordes are marching against the empire! They're waging unprovoked war against the seat of human civilization, killing women and children, and stealing whole chunks of land! Worse, they're leaded by a religious extremist who claims God is talking to her to bring down the empire! If things keep going on this way, all of Thedas will be conquered by this madwoman and her foreign religion will be imposed by force on all of us!"

 

I wonder what we would do if we could play that game. Without hinsight knowledge, of course.

 

 

[Will-o'-wisp]

I guess it's quite pointless for me to make an other counter Argument because there's one Major Point where we disagree: escalating the whole conflict on purpose was not necessary and in no way good for any of the participating parties.

 

I don't believe that this war will make anything better for the mages that could not have bee achieved by diplomacy instead of extremism and violence and I also oppose the idea that all mages should be free from Chantry, Templars and Circles in the first place. If Anders wanted to wage war and chaos he sure did the 'necessary' thing but if what he wanted was better treatment for mages, he failed epicly.

 

I'm out now, seems I can't say much that's on Topic here. ^^'

[elrofrost]

Anders lived and was my lover. But since DAI isn't about Hawke, I'm assuming Anders will have a cameo. Too bad, I liked his chararter.

 

It was the same in the ME series.

[EmissaryofLies]

Hope he shows up.

 

Hope he slaughters templars full scale. It's nothing less than they deserve.

[Master Warder Z_]

Hope Lambert shows up.

 

Hope he slaughters the mages full scale. It's nothing less then they deserve.

 

 I can do it too.

[Xilizhra]

Hope Lambert shows up.

 

Hope he slaughters the mages full scale. It's nothing less then they deserve.

 

 I can do it too.

And you're... proud of this somehow?

[Master Warder Z_]

And you're... proud of this somehow?

 

No, but i am amused.

 

Pride is a strange concept, its far better to be practical and malleable.

[AresKeith]

And you're... proud of this somehow?

You should ask the poster above him the same question

[EmissaryofLies]

Hope Lambert shows up.

 

Hope he slaughters the mages full scale. It's nothing less then they deserve.

 

 I can do it too.

 

/golf clap

 

Would you like a golden star by your name too?

[EmissaryofLies]

You should ask the poster above him the same question

 

What are you supposed to be anyway? I vaguely recall you claiming to be 'compromise', does that hold true? I am always so very confused whenever I see you post in any thread that pertains to mages and templars.

[Spectre slayer]

They didn't however clarify where that leaves Justice. He could easily be controlling the corpse now.

I'm willing to bet Justice either finally took full control of Ander's live body or took control of him once he was dead. Justice possessed Kristof while he was dead and only lost control if he was beheaded or completely slaughtered by the Warden Commander. Ander's only gets knifed once, I doubt that would kill Justice.

Actually they have in fact clarified this and I wouldn't take that bet if I were you, Gaider already refuted this before and said a dead Anders will remain dead, no corpse possession by Justice and probably not anything else.

David Gaider

Indeed. While I've certainly no aversion towards doing such a thing if the story called for it (though a possessed Anders corpse would be pretty silly even for a hand-wave... I think I'd have an aversion to that), a dead Anders will remain dead.

If you believe Anders, then Justice would have been freed. If not, then Justice was destroyed along with him.

Either way, Justice won't be possessing Anders' corpse. A dead Anders is gone.

I'll leave that to speculation, though I doubt that would be a good solution. It certainly would not have simply killed Justice and freed Anders, at any rate.

http://social.biowar.../index/12589241

Justice may still be alive somewhere but who knows what effect Anders had on him, later getting forced out of his hosts body if you killed Anders and then the veil tear, that is if Justice still exists.

Anyway a dead Anders is dead, if he's alive then there's a decent chance he may show up since large chunks of an unknown dlc and the scrapped exhalted march expansion pack are apart of DAI now according to Gaider, Jonathan Perry also said this and that some of the character that were in the expansion pack are in DAI including a significant returning cast according to Cameron Lee. He could very well be one of those characters for all we know, though only if he's alive.