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[EmissaryofLies]

I saw Anders approving of selling a person to a magister. Granted, they hate each other, but I don't justify him for this.
I saw Ander trying (and succeeding) to kill a person to trigger a bloody revolution, without considering the fact that the way he started the process would mean that dozens of mages (including children) would die in Kirkwall (because even if the Champion supported the Circle, a lot of mages died here), and that's without caring a single bit of what those people wanted. Because those people definitely didn't want to be put in that situation.
So yes, I can definitely see why people could compare the two.

 

Fenris, a specific individual. As heinous and evil as supporting such an action is, at least he had the damned balls to say such in front of the man himself. Loghain supported the selling of most if not the entire alienage and hid behind Howe like a coward.

 

A revolution for the mages, that some undoubtedly wanted. Evidenced by the remaining circles revolting. You can argue coulda shoulda wouldas all you'd like; Anders was NOT the only mage who wanted freedom. You'll have to remember that not every slave wanted to be free in America's civil war.

 

While Loghain started a war and tried to destroy the vanguard against the blight, betrayed Maric in so many ways.

 

The comparison is utter and complete rubbish, driven by a fanatical hatred of a character that lived the majority of his life healing and helping others.

[AresKeith]

The comparison is utter and complete rubbish, driven by a fanatical hatred of a character that lived the majority of his life healing and helping others.

Ummm no, the Anders hate is perfectly legit and there's nothing wrong with comparison at all

[EmissaryofLies]

Ummm no, the Anders hate is perfectly legit and there's nothing wrong with comparison at all.

 

I completely and utterly disagree.

 

I disagree so much to the extent that I wish that I could disagree more. Sadly, I cannot.

 

But opinions are like assh*les.

 

Anders > Loghain.

[Grieving Natashina]

While I don't agree with the Anders hate, I can certainly see where the comparisons are coming from.  That being said, I really feel that to compare the two men too much is to cheapen both of their characters.

 

My two coppers.

[The Elder King]

Fenris, a specific individual. As heinous and evil as supporting such an action is, at least he had the damned balls to say such in front of the man himself. Loghain supported the selling of most if not the entire alienage and hid behind Howe like a coward.

A revolution for the mages, that some undoubtedly wanted. Evidenced by the remaining circles revolting. You can argue coulda shoulda wouldas all you'd like; Anders was NOT the only mage who wanted freedom. You'll have to remember that not every slave wanted to be free in America's civil war.

While Loghain started a war and tried to destroy the vanguard against the blight, betrayed Maric in so many ways.

The comparison is utter and complete rubbish, driven by a fanatical hatred of a character that lived the majority of his life healing and helping others.

The Circles are rebelling AFTER the events of Kirkwall, after templars become harsher on mages, as directly stated by Asunder. Furthermore, I was specifically taking about the mages in Kirkwall.
And no, I didn't say that no mages in Kirkwall would want to rebel or be free (the Libertarians were always present, and I didn't even put the word 'free' in my post). What I stated is that the mages in Kirkwall didn't want to be put in a deadly situation. They were forced to flee, and many of them didn't have the chance because they got killed. And the comparison with the slaves in US is completely irrelevant. They weren't forced in a situation where they had to flee for save their lives.
About Loghain, I recall that he admitted as a companion that he was responsible for the slavery thing but it was necessary becuase Ferelden's resources were zeroed. Which for me doesn't justify what he did, but he took responsibility.
You're completely wrong about my opinion of Anders. I don't hate him all. I don't support a bit his methods, but I don't hate him. The comparison between Loghain still stands becuase they're both people that did good for most of their lives, and that in the games had good intentions, but commicted actions that caused death and suffering of innocent people. If you want to Adige that what Loghain did was worse than what Anders did, that's another matter.
But considering your opinion of the Chantry, you probably think that the people in the Chantry aren't innocent and deserved to die. Though Anders didn't believe so.

[The Elder King]

I completely and utterly disagree.
 
I disagree so much to the extent that I wish that I could disagree more. Sadly, I cannot.
 
But opinions are like assh*les.
 
Anders > Loghain.

You do know that comparing two characters doesn't necessarily mean that they're on the same level right?

[Xilizhra]

But considering your opinion of the Chantry, you probably think that the people in the Chantry aren't innocent and deserved to die. Though Anders didn't believe so.

Elthina and the templars were not innocent. The presence of others is purely speculative.

[The Elder King]

Elthina and the templars were not innocent. The presence of others is purely speculative.

Your opinion of Elthina is just an opinion, and thus subjective. And Anders himself stated that those people deserved justice. Not to mention that you have no clue wha those templars did: for all you know, they could be similar to Thrask.
Doesn't change the fact that many mages died because he choose the best method to ensure the death of many, which would've been more if I didn't side with the mages.

[Xilizhra]

Your opinion of Elthina is just an opinion, and thus subjective. And Anders himself stated that those people deserved justice. Not to mention that you have no clue wha those templars did: for all you know, they could be similar to Thrask.
Doesn't change the fact that many mages died because he choose the best method to ensure the death of many, which would've been more if I didn't side with the mages.

Everything is an opinion, but mine is that Elthina was guilty of, at least, gross criminal negligence. And the templars are military targets.

 

Many mages did die... due to the actions of Meredith and those who chose to follow her.

[Shadow Fox]

Fenris, a specific individual. As heinous and evil as supporting such an action is, at least he had the damned balls to say such in front of the man himself. Loghain supported the selling of most if not the entire alienage and hid behind Howe like a coward.

 

A revolution for the mages, that some undoubtedly wanted. Evidenced by the remaining circles revolting. You can argue coulda shoulda wouldas all you'd like; Anders was NOT the only mage who wanted freedom. You'll have to remember that not every slave wanted to be free in America's civil war.

 

While Loghain started a war and tried to destroy the vanguard against the blight, betrayed Maric in so many ways.

 

The comparison is utter and complete rubbish, driven by a fanatical hatred of a character that lived the majority of his life healing and helping others.

And I've heard similar arguments and justifications for Loghain's actions.

 

And Loghain lived most of his life protecting Ferelden often at his own personal expense.

[AresKeith]

Everything is an opinion, but mine is that Elthina was guilty of, at least, gross criminal negligence. And the templars are military targets.

 

Many mages did die... due to the actions of Meredith and those who chose to follow her.

 

Don't just pin the whole thing of Meredith, Anders deserves some of the blame also

[EmissaryofLies]

The Circles are rebelling AFTER the events of Kirkwall, after templars become harsher on mages, as directly stated by Asunder. Furthermore, I was specifically taking about the mages in Kirkwall.
And no, I didn't say that no mages in Kirkwall would want to rebel or be free (the Libertarians were always present, and I didn't even put the word 'free' in my post). What I stated is that the mages in Kirkwall didn't want to be put in a deadly situation. They were forced to flee, and many of them didn't have the chance because they got killed. And the comparison with the slaves in US is completely irrelevant. They weren't forced in a situation where they had to flee for save their lives.
About Loghain, I recall that he admitted as a companion that he was responsible for the slavery thing but it was necessary becuase Ferelden's resources were zeroed. Which for me doesn't justify what he did, but he took responsibility.
You're completely wrong about my opinion of Anders. I don't hate him all. I don't support a bit his methods, but I don't hate him. The comparison between Loghain still stands becuase they're both people that did good for most of their lives, and that in the games had good intentions, but commicted actions that caused death and suffering of innocent people. If you want to Adige that what Loghain did was worse than what Anders did, that's another matter.
But considering your opinion of the Chantry, you probably think that the people in the Chantry aren't innocent and deserved to die. Though Anders didn't believe so.

 

They wanted to be free, but to not be put into a deadly situation. They were ALREADY in a deadly situation, lest you forget Meredith had already sent for the annulment and she was absolutely desperate to pin something on Orsino to get it quickstarted. Let's also not forget how quickly Meredith forgot Anders' even existed when the Chantry went boom. She all but shook the man's hand. I am one hundred percent convinced that Meredith was going to call that annulment, it was only a matter of time. Oh yeah and the divine was considering an exalted march and it seemed like Leliana supported such a decision with her recommendation of the GC hitting the road. The writing is on the wall and Anders knew it.

 

If anything Anders did the mages a huge favor. Meredith would have caught them completely off guard and there probably would have been even fewer survivors, if there were any at all.

 

Loghain admitted to what he done on his own terms, when it was comfortable and secure. Anders said what he said in the heat of the moment, no fear or hesistation, no political half steppin. Evil, but I can at least respect that.

 

Wasn't specifically talking about your opinion on Loghain and if you cannot tell by now, I still disagree that the comparison is an appropriate one, feel free to disagree.

 

Lastly, I hate the Chantry. They will always be an enemy. The GC and the templars with her in the cinematic most definitely deserved to die the most painful of deaths. I simply wish that the PC would have had the option to plant the bomb themselves.

 

But ironically, despite my hatred of them. I can see them being mages' greatest ally if you they play their respective cards right.

[The Elder King]

Everything is an opinion, but mine is that Elthina was guilty of, at least, gross criminal negligence. And the templars are military targets.
 
Many mages did die... due to the actions of Meredith and those who chose to follow her.

Even if you're right, that doesn't mean she deserved to die.
So you'd be fine if templars like Thrask (who might've trying to stand against Meredith) to die in the Chantry?
Meredith and her templars have definitely reasponsibility. I doesn't change the fact that Anders is responsible too.

[Xilizhra]

Even if you're right, that doesn't mean she deserved to die.
So you'd be fine if templars like Thrask (who might've trying to stand against Meredith) to die in the Chantry?
Meredith and her templars have definitely reasponsibility. I doesn't change the fact that Anders is responsible too.

I don't think that anyone fundamentally deserves to die, I just don't think that Elthina is innocent. Such templar losses would be unfortunate, but they do remain military targets nonetheless; we can't always concern ourselves with the moral character of enemy soldiers. And, to my knowledge, legally speaking (assuming laws not biased toward either party), Anders would not possess any guilt for the murder committed against various mages, as opposed to directly blowing up the Chantry; Anders created what was likely to be a provocation, but the actual act is solely the doing of the templars.

[Shadow Fox]

Don't just pin the whole thing of Meredith, Anders deserves some of the blame also

Loghain fans scapegoat Howe.

 

Anders fans scapegoat Meredith.

 

[AresKeith]

Loghain fans scapegoat Howe.

 

Anders fans scapegoat Meredith.

 

 

lol the comparisons thickens

[Xilizhra]

Loghain fans scapegoat Howe.

 

Anders fans scapegoat Meredith.

 

Er, I don't see it. Loghain and Howe were actually on the same side.

[AresKeith]

Er, I don't see it. Loghain and Howe were actually on the same side.

 

Has to do with anything how?

[pallascedar]

Didn't see Anders standing by while alienage elves were being sold into slavery. Didn't see him trying to kill off the only people holding Thedas' back from annihilation. So no, I'd say he is not.

 

And before I get jumped by the Loghain apologists, I am aware he had good intentions.

 

The road to hell is paved with them.

Loghain was a tyrant (albeit a well-intentioned one). Anders was a terrorist (albeit a well-intentioned one). I don't really know what's worse, but they're not much similar besides doing awful things for what they saw as good reasons.

[Xilizhra]

Has to do with anything how?

You cannot "scapegoat" Meredith for Anders' actions because they were always working at cross-purposes.

[AresKeith]

You cannot "scapegoat" Meredith for Anders' actions because they were always working at cross-purposes.

 

Doesn't really change the fact that both fanbase like to place all the blame on another party instead of both

[The Elder King]

They wanted to be free, but to not be put into a deadly situation. They were ALREADY in a deadly situation, lest you forget Meredith had already sent for the annulment and she was absolutely desperate to pin something on Orsino to get it quickstarted. Let's also not forget how quickly Meredith forgot Anders' even existed when the Chantry went boom. She all but shook the man's hand. I am one hundred percent convinced that Meredith was going to call that annulment, it was only a matter of time. Oh yeah and the divine was considering an exalted march and it seemed like Leliana supported such a decision with her recommendation of the GC hitting the road. The writing is on the wall and Anders knew it.
 
If anything Anders did the mages a huge favor. Meredith would have caught them completely off guard and there probably would have been even fewer survivors, if there were any at all.
 
Loghain admitted to what he done on his own terms, when it was comfortable and secure. Anders said what he said in the heat of the moment, no fear or hesistation, no political half steppin. Evil, but I can at least respect that.
 
Wasn't specifically talking about your opinion on Loghain and if you cannot tell by now, I still disagree that the comparison is an appropriate one, feel free to disagree.
 
Lastly, I hate the Chantry. They will always be an enemy. The GC and the templars with her in the cinematic most definitely deserved to die the most painful of deaths. I simply wish that the PC would have had the option to plant the bomb themselves.
 
But ironically, despite my hatred of them. I can see them being mages' greatest ally if you they play their respective cards right.

The Annulment was rejected by Elthina, and Asunder seems to retconnect Justinia/Leliana's POV. Unless Justinia called for an EM (which it doesn't seem likely, based on Asunder), Meredith could t have done nothing. Elthina wasn't going to conced it to her. And You forgot that the part of Leliana is a dlc that doesn't have to be played. Anders could very well know nothing about it, knowing only Elthina's stance, and still going on his plan.
Want heat of the moment? Anders wasn't in a dire situation. He wasn't risking nothing. He stated that because he fully support selling Fenris. I don't respect any desire of selling another into slavery.
I disagree on your opinion (not that I hold the Chantry in a pedestal though) and expecially with got methods and desires.
The Chantry might definitely be a great ally for the mages. It's better if the mages learn to coexist with the Chantry (or at least not saying war to them), for their sake. Otherwise I doubt the rebellion would survive in southern Thedas.

[Shadow Fox]

You cannot "scapegoat" Meredith for Anders' actions because they were always working at cross-purposes.

They both wanted the ROA to happen.

 

They just wanted the opposing side to die.

[Xilizhra]

Doesn't really change the fact that both fanbase like to place all the blame on another party instead of both

Meredith's response was so unsuitable to the situation that I can't see Anders really taking any blame for it.

 

 

They both wanted the ROA to happen.

 

They just wanted the opposing side to die.

That's like saying Roosevelt and Hitler had the same goal.

[The Elder King]

I don't think that anyone fundamentally deserves to die, I just don't think that Elthina is innocent. Such templar losses would be unfortunate, but they do remain military targets nonetheless; we can't always concern ourselves with the moral character of enemy soldiers. And, to my knowledge, legally speaking (assuming laws not biased toward either party), Anders would not possess any guilt for the murder committed against various mages, as opposed to directly blowing up the Chantry; Anders created what was likely to be a provocation, but the actual act is solely the doing of the templars.

But without him, the templars woudn't have killed them. His action are strictly related to the start of the Annulment, because he knew what would happen. He wanted Meredith to start the Annulment so the the mages would be forced to flee: that's why he killed Elthina.