147 réponses à ce sujet

[Jedi Master of Orion]

That's not what he says at all. He actually talks about how it would be impractical to kick them out.

[Lulupab]

That's not what he says at all. He actually talks about how it would be impractical to kick them out.

 

He wants to kick them out but he cannot. 

[dragonflight288]

He offers Asylum to three random Apostates during peacetime, again not exactly the same situation.

 

Back then all the Chantry was doing was throwing a hissy fit via Meredith, The Templars had basically declared a Crusade against rebels mages yet.

 

Possible Dev Comments aside, I'd say a Nation recovering from a Blight would do what most would do with no vest interest in the conflict, close their borders to both parties and let them kill each other.

 

So the war breaks out, and he supports mages, what's the response going to be? A rogue army invade Ferelden without any backup since they are not loyal to any nation, have no Chantry supporting them, and so on? The whole thing with logistics would keep the templars hunting mages out of the country unless they wanted to face Ferelden's military (and probably the Wardens as well if they mess with them....again). I don't see the issue. If the templars actually did invade, they'd have to be monumentally stupid. 

 

Besides, Meredith was just throwing a hissy fit that she could't throw her authority around with Alistair and couldn't boss him around like she could everyone else in Kirkwall. At least that's my opinion since she seemed to have quite a childish reaction. 

 

This nation recovering from a blight has Ines the botanist, a mage, studying an herb (Northern Prickleweed) that could actually grow in blighted soil. I think they see the benefit of having mages if they are helping, and we don't know the details behind those apostates. They may have offered similar services, or brought evidence of the templars abuse of power and Alistair being Alistair promised to protect them so long as they weren't blood mages.  

 

Also, Alistair is not the biggest fan of the Chantry. In his words, "do you want the Chantry's version or the truth?" the warden asks, "They're not the same thing?" and he goes "They rarely are."

 

And if the Chantry was throwing a hissy fit over Meredith, could you please show me any evidence at all? I don't recall seeing anything that says they didn't like what Meredith was doing at the time she was doing it. 

[Wulfram]

I don't think neutrality is especially practical.  Ultimately you have to decide whether mages can live freely on your lands.  Or your people get caught in the crossfire as your country becomes a battlefield.

 

I'd expect the Mage/Templar conflict to get quickly entangled in local squabbles.  If your rival supports the Mages, then the Templars become your natural allies, and vice versa. 

[EmissaryofLies]

Good point.

 

I also do not believe that it will be as simple as a country 'picking a side', too many variables amongst mages and templars for stability to last a long enough time before in-fighting starts to cause problems.

 

You've got multiple mage fraternities, Red templars, the templars that left the chantry, and Justinia.

 

It's going to be very messy.

[Dean_the_Young]

He wants to kick them out but he cannot. 

 

Would you mind providing a link to the scene, or at least text? I have not seen it, and would rather take my own impression from what he says.

[Master Warder Z_]

So the war breaks out, and he supports mages, what's the response going to be? A rogue army invade Ferelden without any backup since they are not loyal to any nation, have no Chantry supporting them, and so on? The whole thing with logistics would keep the templars hunting mages out of the country unless they wanted to face Ferelden's military (and probably the Wardens as well if they mess with them....again). I don't see the issue. If the templars actually did invade, they'd have to be monumentally stupid. 

 

Besides, Meredith was just throwing a hissy fit that she could't throw her authority around with Alistair and couldn't boss him around like she could everyone else in Kirkwall. At least that's my opinion since she seemed to have quite a childish reaction. 

 

This nation recovering from a blight has Ines the botanist, a mage, studying an herb (Northern Prickleweed) that could actually grow in blighted soil. I think they see the benefit of having mages if they are helping, and we don't know the details behind those apostates. They may have offered similar services, or brought evidence of the templars abuse of power and Alistair being Alistair promised to protect them so long as they weren't blood mages.  

 

Also, Alistair is not the biggest fan of the Chantry. In his words, "do you want the Chantry's version or the truth?" the warden asks, "They're not the same thing?" and he goes "They rarely are."

 

And if the Chantry was throwing a hissy fit over Meredith, could you please show me any evidence at all? I don't recall seeing anything that says they didn't like what Meredith was doing at the time she was doing it. 

 

 

You need to reread my post obviously, i said they were throwing a Hissy fit through Meredith, Aka she was the messenger in that respect, claiming he had no right to shield apostates from the Chantry. (Which he doesn't at least not legally) 

 

Dragon, I know you are pro mage but would you at least ground yourself a little bit, i mean your dealing with a relatively impartial Nation recovering from a Blight, Not Rivain.

 

A lot of your speculation is based on the concept of Alistair ruling alone or ruling at all, And him placing his personal politics above his Nation, Having it dragged into the Mage Templar war wouldn't do much to promote National Stability nor recovery.

 

So you think the Monarchy would willingly agitate the Templars? Even if they did, i doubt they would do so entirely for the mage spectrum given that within this very Nations, You have at least two Lord of  Bannorns with Templar connections, Aka they would raise a stink over anything being overtly done to the Templars, Add in that you have Anti Magic Dogma spread amongst Fereldan like most Andrastrian Nations and the predicted outcome is simple.

 

The Monarchy is risking civil unrest and instability over a conflict they ultimately don't have any stake in, I see Neutrality coming out of this over any other reaction because the Templars are connected to this Nation, even overt military action by the Monarchy in declaring a side for one way or another and you have the Bannorn to contend with, whom i'd presume would prefer stay out of a out of nation conflict while they are still rebuilding from a civil war and blight, not risk another one to play bosom buddy with the mages.

[Dean_the_Young]

So the war breaks out, and he supports mages, what's the response going to be? A rogue army invade Ferelden without any backup since they are not loyal to any nation, have no Chantry supporting them, and so on? The whole thing with logistics would keep the templars hunting mages out of the country unless they wanted to face Ferelden's military (and probably the Wardens as well if they mess with them....again). I don't see the issue. If the templars actually did invade, they'd have to be monumentally stupid.

 

The Templars don't really have to conquer the country or hunt the mages out of the country to raise cain for Alistair- they just have to raise cain. There are a lot of ways they can do it, ranging from using public support and fear of mages to support their movements (which is possible) to demonstrating that the crown can't stop them (which is easier).

 

Nor is rooting apostates out from the Countryside really necessary for a Templar victory- preventing an independent Circle is. Rounding up apostates at a later date is fine, as long as the independent Circle is broken apart. If the Templars take Lake Calenhad and the Tower, and the mages are hiding in the countryside, then they've broken an independent mage bastion. Even creating a Circle-in-Exile in another city wouldn't be the same- it would be clear that the mages can't maintain their own independence, but are dependent on another faction.

 

 

Mind you, in the great scale of things Ferelden's Circle isn't that important- so goes Orlais and the Chantry, so goes the greater continent, and Ferelden isn't exactly strong enough or independently minded enough to resist all foreign pressures.

 

What matters far more than the Ferelden Circle is the lyrium trade. Templars need it, mages want it, the Dwarves have it, and it all happens in western Ferelden- which, coincidentally, is likely where the Inquisitor and Templars will be acting from. If radical pro-mage Alistair (and I think this is being overstated to a great degree) can't project power west of lake Calenhad, then it won't really matter what stance he takes.

[Lulupab]

Would you mind providing a link to the scene, or at least text? I have not seen it, and would rather take my own impression from what he says.

 

This took a while to find... 

 

 

[Northern Sun]

One thing I could see happening in Orlais specifically is one of the sides in the civil war approaching the mages/templars and offering them concessions in exchange for support in the war. It would obviously immedieately cause the other civil war group to approach the other mage/templar group, but if, for example, Celene was desperate to bring an end to the war and was willing to gamble that a bunch of magefire could end the war too quickly for the Templars and Gaspard to unite, I could see her doing it.

[Dean_the_Young]

Thanks- but I don't see where you get that Alistair wants to kick the Templars out from that. His tone is decidedly neutral and non-committal when it's raised, nor does he express an opposition to them in general.

 

Opposition to Meredith, to be sure- but he says that as a (ex)-Templar perspective, and never identifies as an anti-Templar in the conversation. The closest he ever does is effectively a 'the grass seems greener from where you are' sort of moment when Hawke mentions that Ferelden sounds better.

[Lulupab]

Thanks- but I don't see where you get that Alistair wants to kick the Templars out from that. His tone is decidedly neutral and non-committal when it's raised, nor does he express an opposition to them in general.

 

Opposition to Meredith, to be sure- but he says that as a (ex)-Templar perspective, and never identifies as an anti-Templar in the conversation. The closest he ever does is effectively a 'the grass seems greener from where you are' sort of moment when Hawke mentions that Ferelden sounds better.

 

Well Hawke asks can't you just kick the Templars out?

He says "Ha! easier said than done"

 

I interpreted it means if it was easy he would kick the Templars out asap.

[DrBlingzle]

One thing I could see happening in Orlais specifically is one of the sides in the civil war approaching the mages/templars and offering them concessions in exchange for support in the war. It would obviously immedieately cause the other civil war group to approach the other mage/templar group, but if, for example, Celene was desperate to bring an end to the war and was willing to gamble that a bunch of magefire could end the war too quickly for the Templars and Gaspard to unite, I could see her doing it.

Very possible. I'm not sure which sides would ally with each other and there isn't enough information out on the Olesian civil war to make an accurate quess (we'll probably have more information after masked empire comes). However Gaspard did try to recuit wynne which suggest that he has no problem siding with mages (although I suspect he's willing to side with anyone if it wins him the war).

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Well Hawke asks can't you just kick the Templars out?

He says "Ha! easier said than done"

 

I interpreted it means if it was easy he would kick the Templars out asap.

I think your views may be biasing your interpretation a little bit. I never got "Alistair would do it if it was easier." from his line.

[Lulupab]

I think your views may be biasing your interpretation a little bit. I never got "Alistair would do it if it was easier." from his line.

 

Well he has already allowed Apostates free reign on Fereldan. As citizens he has that right over them. And when talking with him he is trying to make the circle leave chantry control and become independent. So yeah if it was easy he would kick the Templars out but we both know its not easy.

[Aimi]

Very possible. I'm not sure which sides would ally with each other and there isn't enough information out on the Olesian civil war to make an accurate quess (we'll probably have more information after masked empire comes). However Gaspard did try to recuit wynne which suggest that he has no problem siding with mages (although I suspect he's willing to side with anyone if it wins him the war).

There may also be pressure to keep the Orlesian civil war and the mage-templar conflict separate. Allies don't fight for free; they usually want something, especially if those allies don't initially share a common enemy. Either side of the Orlesian civil war might wish to avoid making concessions to either templars or mages in exchange for victory. Furthermore, taking a side means, well, not taking the other side. Coming down against the templars might mean that those templars cause Gaspard (or whomever) a great deal of trouble. It's always difficult to manage patronage and alliances in a large empire, and Orlais is larger than most. Mages and templars might be one interest group too far for Celene and Gaspard.

 

People often point toward ways in which conflicts might be broadened - "this country pulls in that country, and their enemies pull in this faction, and so on and so on" - but there are almost always countervailing pressures to stay neutral. I agree: we simply don't have enough information to say which direction the pressure is going until at the very least Masked Empire. Maybe even not until the game itself comes out.

[TheKomandorShepard]

For now none as every country have own problems to deal with so they don't have time if they will be forced or solve their problems i guess most will take side of templars because i doubt that anyone wants walking bombs exploding in their countries and give mages opportunity to create next tevinter empire... so as long leader of country is sane and know dangers that mages represent he will take templar side or at least burn them after they start one after one turn into abomnations...

[Dean_the_Young]

Well he has already allowed Apostates free reign on Fereldan. As citizens he has that right over them. And when talking with him he is trying to make the circle leave chantry control and become independent. So yeah if it was easy he would kick the Templars out but we both know its not easy.

 

Who says he is allowing those three Kirkwall apostates free reign on Fereldan? He's not giving them back to Meredith, but nothing more is said about their status one way or another. He doesn't even claim them as citizens (which, coming from Kirwall, they wouldn't be). He just says he can only deal with mages outside the Circles.

 

Nor does he claim that he is trying to make the Circle leave Chantry control. He just says he doesn't share the same views on mages.

 

You're seriously projecting motivations on him.

[Lulupab]

Who says he is allowing those three Kirkwall apostates free reign on Fereldan? He's not giving them back to Meredith, but nothing more is said about their status one way or another. He doesn't even claim them as citizens (which, coming from Kirwall, they wouldn't be). He just says he can only deal with mages outside the Circles.

 

Nor does he claim that he is trying to make the Circle leave Chantry control. He just says he doesn't share the same views on mages.

 

You're seriously projecting motivations on him.

 

Alistair admits his thoughts about mages are different than the templars. Hawke can ask about trying to take over the circle, on which he replies that's not that easy. There is a clear implication that he wants to do that but its not easy to which Anders comments its worth trying.

 

Back to my original point, Fereldan will not side with Templars.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Alistair admits his thoughts about mages are different than the templars. Hawke can ask about trying to take over the circle, on which he replies that's not that easy. There is a clear implication that he wants to do that but its not easy to which Anders comments its worth trying.

 

Back to my original point, Fereldan will not side with Templars.

 unless you put anora on the throne so well i can see her supporting templars...

[Veruin]

Alistair admits his thoughts about mages are different than the templars. Hawke can ask about trying to take over the circle, on which he replies that's not that easy. There is a clear implication that he wants to do that but its not easy to which Anders comments its worth trying.

 

Back to my original point, Fereldan will not side with Templars.

Ferelden won't side with mages either, because of that whole "Rebuild from the blight" stuff.

 

They'll likely be a neutral country.

[Dean_the_Young]

Alistair admits his thoughts about mages are different than the templars. Hawke can ask about trying to take over the circle, on which he replies that's not that easy. There is a clear implication that he wants to do that but its not easy to which Anders comments its worth trying.

 

Back to my original point, Fereldan will not side with Templars.

 

There's not a clear implication- there's a scoff and a non-committal rebuttal that would apply regardless of whether Alistair is wanted to or not. It is intent neutral: Anders's comment is no more indicative of Alistair's intent than Fenris's. All Anders' comment expresses is his own view.
 

[Lulupab]

 unless you put anora on the throne so well i can see her supporting templars...

 

David Gaider said that, "the most important thing to know about Anora is that she is her father's daughter." Loghain promised to free the circle from Templars for his own gains. 

[Veruin]

David Gaider said that, "the most important thing to know about Anora is that she is her father's daughter." Loghain promised to free the circle from Templars for his own gains. 

So what you're saying is, if Anora won't benefit from it, you can't really rely on her morality to free the circle just by a whim.

 

So, to recap;

 

Alistair - Neutral

 

Anora - Whatever side will benefit Ferelden more.

[Dean_the_Young]

David Gaider said that, "the most important thing to know about Anora is that she is her father's daughter." Loghain promised to free the circle from Templars for his own gains. 

 

Anora is her father's daughter, but that doesn't mean she holds the same bargains as him. Not, mind you, that Loghain's bargain still applies: a deal with Uldred to help Loghain win the civil war and resist orlais is a bit moot when Uldred is dead, the Civil War is resolved, Loghain is nowhere to lead, and Orlais is not exactly a major threat.