216 réponses à ce sujet

[AresKeith]

It's illegal for Harrowed mages to be made Tranquil. If Aneirin hadn't experienced that, which I don't think he did, he'd probably be doomed.

 

I'm pretty sure if a Harrowed mage becomes a blood mage they can get made tranquil no issues

[LobselVith8]

It's illegal for Harrowed mages to be made Tranquil. If Aneirin hadn't experienced that, which I don't think he did, he'd probably be doomed.

Wynne says the templars claimed fourteen year old Aneirin was a maleficar; the elf who became Aneirin the Healer, and likes to go out amongst nature.

The fact that Wynne dismisses this, and even invites Aneirin to return to the Circle, makes it clear how accurate she thought this was.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Anders also claimed the origins of the dark spawn were just a fairy tale the chantry made up to scare you. And then he also said the mages would need to be insane to break away from the chantry.

 

What other words of wisdom do you want to use as fact that come from that ginger nutters mouth?

[Hellion Rex]

I'm pretty sure if a Harrowed mage becomes a blood mage they can get made tranquil no issues

I thought all Templars had execute on sight for maleficar...or perhaps that is just for those they encounter outside the Circle.

[Cainhurst Crow]

I'm pretty sure if a Harrowed mage becomes a blood mage they can get made tranquil no issues

 

Nope. Then they'll just kill them.

 

Only kirkwall seemed to break this rule, which I feel should have been immediate grounds for the seekers to come in and purge the upper ranks, as it were.

 

[EmissaryofLies]

They were asleep at the wheel. Until the resolutionists started talkin' that ****. Then they came a runnin'.

 

Can't wait to see if they actually do their jobs in future titles.

[AresKeith]

I thought all Templars had execute on sight for maleficar...or perhaps that is just for those they encounter outside the Circle.

 

I think it's the former

[LobselVith8]

Anders also claimed the origins of the dark spawn were just a fairy tale the chantry made up to scare you. And then he also said the mages would need to be insane to break away from the chantry.

What other words of wisdom do you want to use as fact that come from that ginger nutters mouth?

Actually, Anders believed in the Chantry fable in Awakening and vanilla Dragon Age II; he is religiously Andrastian. His Andrastian faith is why he argues with Merrill over her Dalish beliefs, when she says she doesn't view the denizens of the Fade as Spirits who are the First Children of the Maker, and doesn't believe some Spirits became Demons who represent different "sins" because of their jealousy over the Maker.

 

In their religious argument, Anders claims: "Spirits were the first children of the Maker, but He turned his back on them to dote on His mortal creations. Anders: The ones who resented this became demons, driven to take everything mortals had and gain back the Maker's favor." In another argument with Merrill, Anders said: "But have you never studied the types of demons? They break down very clearly into different sins-" Anders' characterization in Legacy is inconsistent with his depiction in both Awakening and vanilla Dragon Age II, since in both he addresses that he believes in the Chantry fable about the corruption of the Golden City.

As for his line about breaking away from the Chantry in the City of Amaranthine, perhaps he changed his mind because of what happened to Karl, or maybe his initial views in Amaranthine are because the developers originally considered Justice merging with Velanna.

Either way, his opinions don't negate his knowledge of facts.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Honestly it brings a lot of what he says into question as to whether it is fact, given most of what he says are opinions and perspective points.

[Reznore57]

I'm not sure there's two version of the circles.

Mages were granted boon and could have some freedom.

It's still the case in Asunder , Wynne is more or less free .

There's a story about young Rhys and an older circle mage being sent in Tevinter to study.Well they were send as spies ...

Thing is the mages suffered from the lack of war /disaster.

The fifth Blight was done in one year , only Wynne really benefit from it.

In Kirkwall ,Hawke took care of the Qunari.

Mage Hawke is named Champion and isn't taken to the Circle.His apostate friends are tolerated by the templars.

 

About the DAO boon , I think it didn't make sense to free a whole circle from the Chantry.

This circle just had an abomination problem , the right of annulment was called , Jowan was a blood mage who escaped  and attacked a local famous noble , and Ferelden and Orlais are not on the best term.

The mages only fought one big battle in Denerim.

I can imagine the Divine in Orlais just laughing her a** off when she heard about that.

[LobselVith8]

I thought all Templars had execute on sight for maleficar...or perhaps that is just for those they encounter outside the Circle.

 

It happens, as in the case of the elven charlatan who pretended to be a mage with healing abilities called the "Magnificent D'Sims":

 

The Magnificent D'Sims was an elven "healer" who "cured" hayseeds of nonexistent ailments. Even though it was all a scam, the templars declared him apostate and took off his head.

[katerinafm]

I think they were implying things were pretty rough from the beginning, we as the Warden were just not in the position to see it and had bigger things to worry about. But there were hints throughout. It looks like a sudden shift in DA2 because of the Veil being very thin in Kirkwall (making everyone more prone to do weird things) and either Hawke or his sister were in a very sensitive position about it.

 

In the scene where Cailan is going over the battle plans and they are talking about the beacon, the enchanter mage (I think it was the evil mage from the Circle quest, don't remember his name), suggests something like being in charge of alerting loghain's army, and the chantry representative there instantly shuts him down and talks down on him 'We'll trust no lives to your spells, mage.'. There wasn't even a pretense of equality there.

[LobselVith8]

I'm not sure there's two version of the circles.

Mages were granted boon and could have some freedom.

It's still the case in Asunder , Wynne is more or less free .

 

It's addressed in Asunder that Wynne has freedoms that none of the other mages have.

 

Thing is the mages suffered from the lack of war /disaster.

The fifth Blight was done in one year , only Wynne really benefit from it.

In Kirkwall ,Hawke took care of the Qunari.

Mage Hawke is named Champion and isn't taken to the Circle.His apostate friends are tolerated by the templars.

 

I wouldn't consider that to be a good example, since Hawke was a unique situation (involving the rescue of the most powerful and influential nobles in the city-state from a Qunari coup), with Anders and Merrill being protected by their friendship with the Champion of Kirkwall.

 

About the DAO boon , I think it didn't make sense to free a whole circle from the Chantry.

This circle just had an abomination problem , the right of annulment was called , Jowan was a blood mage who escaped  and attacked a local famous noble , and Ferelden and Orlais are not on the best term.

The mages only fought one big battle in Denerim.

I can imagine the Divine in Orlais just laughing her a** off when she heard about that.

 

It made sense to me. Mages participated in helping end the first Blight, and magic is necessary for the Joining that creates Grey Wardens. The Circles participated in the previous Blights to defeat the darkspawn, as well as the New Exalted Marches against the Qunari attempt to conquer Thedas. As the codex reads: "The greatest advantage of the Chantry-led forces was the Circle of Magi. For all their technology, the Qunari appeared to harbor great hatred for magic. Faced with cannons, the Chantry responded with lightning and balls of fire."

 

As for the rebellion with Uldred, that was the result of mages fighting to be free from the templars. It's happened throughout history, including in Ferelden (which was created by Aldenon the Wise and Calenhad Theirin bringing together the warring teyrnirs into one united kingdom), with the mages under the leadership of Aldenon being forced into servitude to the Chantry: "As the Chantry's hold on the kingdom grew, and Aldenon's rebel mages were claimed one by one, the great Calenhad came to regret letting the Circle form in his kingdom. Certainly he missed his old friend's counsel."

 

Emancipating the Circle of Ferelden from the Chantry of Andraste and the Order of Templars made enough sense for the new ruler that Queen Anora and King Alistair are willing to do it even when the Hero of Ferelden sacrifices his life to put an end to the Fifth Blight.

 

As for Divine Beatrix III, it doesn't really matter what she thought, since the Circles are no longer under the authority of the Chantry or their templars.

[dragonflight288]

I think they were implying things were pretty rough from the beginning, we as the Warden were just not in the position to see it and had bigger things to worry about. But there were hints throughout. It looks like a sudden shift in DA2 because of the Veil being very thin in Kirkwall (making everyone more prone to do weird things) and either Hawke or his sister were in a very sensitive position about it.

 

In the scene where Cailan is going over the battle plans and they are talking about the beacon, the enchanter mage (I think it was the evil mage from the Circle quest, don't remember his name), suggests something like being in charge of alerting loghain's army, and the chantry representative there instantly shuts him down and talks down on him 'We'll trust no lives to your spells, mage.'. There wasn't even a pretense of equality there.

 

His name is Uldred, and he said the Circle was prepared to help out and that lighting the beacon was not even necessary. The Grand Cleric stopped him from speaking, saying just that. 

[katerinafm]

His name is Uldred, and he said the Circle was prepared to help out and that lighting the beacon was not even necessary. The Grand Cleric stopped him from speaking, saying just that. 

 

Yeah, exactly.

[Cainhurst Crow]

And then he went off the deep end. Wonder how he'd feel if his mages were sending up the signal, and loghain told them all to run away.

[dragonflight288]

And then he went off the deep end. Wonder how he'd feel if his mages were sending up the signal, and loghain told them all to run away.

 

Well, for one thing, the signal wouldn't have been late so Loghain may have actually charged. The devs said that Loghain only made the decision to retreat the moment he saw the signal fire. 

 

Or he may have retreated. It doesn't matter now. The idea was shot down completely because a mage made a suggestion. 

[Shadow Fox]

I don't think people rebelled against or fled the Circle because it was an idyllic paradise. Even the mage protagonist can express it's "an oppressive place", and instead of trying to dispute this, Wynne encourages that The Warden can change this by returning to the Circle as a leader, and even admitting that this is her dream.

The Warden can also praise the Circle as a place of camaraderie and safe haven for mages against a world that hates them and she won't dispute that either and Eadric won't dispute an Elven Warden saying that being in a Circle makes then luckier then most elves. 

[LobselVith8]

The Warden can also praise the Circle as a place of camaraderie and safe haven for mages against a world that hates them and she won't dispute that either and Eadric won't dispute an Elven Warden saying that being in a Circle makes then luckier then most elves.

Wynne saying that it was her dream for The Warden to return to the Circle and become a leader to change the Circle into a better place was my point.

The suicides, the escapes, the Rites of Tranquility, the Rights of Annulment, and the need for the Mages Collective to protect mages outside the Circle give me a very different impression of the Chantry controlled Circle.

[Shadow Fox]

Wynne saying that it was her dream for The Warden to return to the Circle and become a leader to change the Circle into a better place was my point.

The suicides, the escapes, the Rites of Tranquility, the Rights of Annulment, and the need for the Mages Collective to protect mages outside the Circle give me a very different impression of the Chantry controlled Circle.

Just saying your Warden's opinion isn't credible evidence for your argument.

 

No different than what the average peasant faces except for having food and decent living conditions without having to work for it.

[LobselVith8]

Just saying your Warden's opinion isn't credible evidence for your argument.

It isn't an isolated view, given how people have risked their lives to escape the Circle of Ferelden, or rebelled against it because they found it oppressive. Even Irving admits to the mage protagonist that his decisions are tempered by what he must do to survive in this environment, to the point of taking action he'd prefer not to.

No different than what the average peasant faces except for having food and decent living conditions without having to work for it.

I think the lack of freedom, being unable to keep your children, the inability to have relationships in certain Circles, the risk of losing your humanity without having the right to contest the charges, and the looming possibility of being killed en mass demonstrate otherwise.

[Shadow Fox]

It isn't an isolated view, given how people have risked their lives to escape the Circle of Ferelden, or rebelled against it because they found it oppressive. Even Irving admits to the mage protagonist that his decisions are tempered by what he must do to survive in this environment, to the point of taking action he'd prefer not to.


I think the lack of freedom, being unable to keep your children, the inability to have relationships in certain Circles, the risk of losing your humanity without having the right to contest the charges, and the looming possibility of being killed en mass demonstrate otherwise.

But far from the only view.

 

Lack of freedom you mean like how peasants are at the mercy of the lord of the land and can't climb the social ladder without the help of another noble or how Orlesian chevaliers can legally rape women?You mean like how Fiona had to give up her kid because she was a Warden?,And being forced into one via arranged marriage is better?And peasants run the risk of losing their land,imprisonment or worse at a noble's discretion,You mean like the City Elves in Denerim were?

[LobselVith8]

But far from the only view.

I doubt anyone contested that. However, the continental rebellion certainly isn't taking place because of how happy most of the mages are with the status quo.

Lack of freedom you mean like how peasants are at the mercy of the lord of the land and can't climb the social ladder without the help of another noble or how Orlesian chevaliers can legally rape women?

No, I meant templars having domain over mages by divine right that hasn't changed for nearly a thousand years, rather than social inequality that can change. An incredibly disingenuous comparison.

You mean like how Fiona had to give up her kid because she was a Warden?

Fiona had a choice, which is why she later chose to return to the Circle to free her people from another millennia of servitude.

And being forced into one via arranged marriage is better?

You can leave and try to forge your own path, without someone having the legal right to kill you or strip you of your humanity; it's not quite the same as some of the Circles prohibiting fraternization of any kind.

And peasants run the risk of losing their land,imprisonment or worse at a noble's discretion,You mean like the City Elves in Denerim were?

No, actually, not like the plethora of grossly inaccurate comparisons you've made. None of those examples are even remotely similar to being shackled to one of the Chantry controlled Circles.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I doubt anyone contested that. However, the continental rebellion certainly isn't taking place because of how happy most of the mages are with the status quo.


No, I meant templars having domain over mages by divine right that hasn't changed for nearly a thousand years, rather than social inequality that can change. An incredibly disingenuous comparison.


Fiona had a choice, which is why she later chose to return to the Circle to free her people from another millennia of servitude.


You can leave and try to forge your own path, without someone having the legal right to kill you or strip you of your humanity; it's not quite the same as some of the Circles prohibiting fraternization of any kind.


No, actually, not like the plethora of grossly inaccurate comparisons you've made. None of those examples are even remotely similar to being shackled to one of the Chantry controlled Circles.

 

Peasants have just as much a chance at getting the system oppressing them to change as mages do the Templars. at least the mages have magic to at least put up some fight. And no, saying the City Elves have it better than the mages is just ridiculous. The City Elves and Casteless Dwarves are the most oppressed people in the DA universe. While in a cage the mages at least have a gilded cage. The CE and DC don't even have that.

[LobselVith8]

Peasants have just as much a chance at getting the system oppressing them to change as mages do the Templars.

They have a chance, which is more than the mages will ever have living in the Circle.

at least the mages have magic to at least put up some fight.

That didn't mean much for the annulled Circle of Rivain.

And no, saying the City Elves have it better than the mages is just ridiculous.

Rites of Tranquility and Rights of Annulment lead me to differ from your stance on the matter.

The City Elves and Casteless Dwarves are the most oppressed people in the DA universe. While in a cage the mages at least have a gilded cage. The CE and DC don't even have that.

They live in servitude to the Chantry, in an institution that some in-universe characters condemn as slavery, from Aldenon the Wise to the pro-mage Champion.

A system that had lead to suicides, escapes at the risk of the escapee's life or worse, rebellions, and legalized acts of genocide. It's a tyrannical system.