I was a champion and I never called the circle slavery. So 1 - 1 = that evidence is 0.
And a system that had lead to suicides, escapes at the risk of the escapee's life or worse, rebellions, and legalized acts of genocide, all sound like city elf life to me. And you don't see them scoffing and how gilded their cages are, mainly because they actually know what true oppression feels like, you whiny spoiled brat of a magister.
A system that had lead to suicides, escapes at the risk of the escapee's life or worse, rebellions, and legalized acts of genocide. It's a tyrannical system.
Lobsel, what people is trying to tell you is that this right here is what the mages have to look forward to when they get free. People still kill themselves to escape oppression, guilt and poverty.
People still risk life or worse when they seek to escape war or life they're trapped in... some even sell themselves -into- slavery because that's still better than their own life.
The rebellions of the circle is nothing compared to the ones outside them where people die by the hundreds if not thousands.
And legalized acts of genocide? Kont-Aar and the Denerim Alienage comes to mind.
The circles are tyrannical, yes. But the world outside them isn't safe, happy and welcoming by comparison.
I was a champion and I never called the circle slavery. So 1 - 1 = that evidence is 0.
And a system that had lead to suicides, escapes at the risk of the escapee's life or worse, rebellions, and legalized acts of genocide, all sound like city elf life to me.
And you don't see them scoffing and how gilded their cages are, mainly because they actually know what true oppression feels like, you whiny spoiled brat of a magister.
Oppression is prolonged cruel or unjust treatment or control. Sounds like the Chantry controlled Circles, the Alienages, and what the casteless go through. Just because one oppressed party has it slightly better than another doesn't make them spoiled brats for complaining about it.
I'd post a more thought out post but I'm kinda tired so meh.
The circles are tyrannical, yes. But the world outside them isn't safe, happy and welcoming by comparison.
It seemed more like some were blatantly whitewashing the horrors of the Chantry controlled Circle. The Rite of Tranquility alone is monstrous. Losing my emotions and my humanity to live out the rest of my life as some emotionless thrall is a fate worse than death.
That said, the plight of the casteless and the Alienage elves is horrific, but it doesn't change that the mages also suffer under the Chantry controlled Circles.
I don't think that reality for the mages who have endured subjugation for close to a millennia should be marginalized.
Lose their humanity how?
They have a chance, which is more than the mages will ever have living in the Circle.
That didn't mean much for the annulled Circle of Rivain.
Rites of Tranquility and Rights of Annulment lead me to differ from your stance on the matter.
They live in servitude to the Chantry, in an institution that some in-universe characters condemn as slavery, from Aldenon the Wise to the pro-mage Champion.
A system that had lead to suicides, escapes at the risk of the escapee's life or worse, rebellions, and legalized acts of genocide. It's a tyrannical system.
No they don't. Mages at least have magic to serve as a weapon to at least put up a fight. How many peasants can you say have the same in terms of ability.
And what of the Alienage purges, or the purge of Dust Town that happen every once in a while. And those aren't because the area may be infested with demons, those are done for nothing other than spite. The Circles aren't the only places to suffer those kinds of things.
People are soooo not projecting atm, nope
I just played the mage origin again earlier this evening (then switched to Kingdoms of Amalur but that's besides the point) and there's one thing that must be pointed out.
Before MisterJB gets involved in this discussion and talks about all the luxeries and comforts a Circle mage enjoys that peasants do not, I'd like to point out something that caught my attention. There are two mages being trained by their mentors in the library on your way to see Irving. Both of them are essentially given the same advice. Control and master your emotions. Fear weakens your will, and that makes you easy prey for a demon. The first mage starts panicking when he hears about the injuries that can occur while trying to control fire. His mentor tells him to calm down because the flame reacts to his emotions, and he sets himself on fire. The second one is using a Fade Shield and is told that his fear is making his shield weaker, his will is wavering, and asks him if he wants to be possessed by a demon, encourages him to stand firm and know that he can do it.
Now, this is all well and good, and is the positive motivation mages do need, but it also shows another point as well. Mages need to be emotionally healthy and strong to control their powers. If they are forced into situations where they live in constant fear and paranoia, are kept down emotionally, traumatized or anything of the sort, it can have adverse affects upon them and their control.
Unless mages are given a strong emotional foundation, can build self-esteem, and become confident in themselves, they are in greater risk of possession and of losing control of their power.
It doesn't matter if things are great in the Circle, material-wise, if they are torn from their families that don't want them, have their children taken from them as Chantry property moments after their birth, are not allowed to marry, and so on and so forth, it becomes that much harder to build a strong emotional foundation.
It ultimately becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy and a downwards spiral. The templars say mages must be watched so they don't lose control, and they slowly gain more power to watch mages more effectively, and mages lose more rights over time thanks to the bad apples that ruin things for them as a group. The mages, or at least some of them, grow disdainful of losing those rights and act out, and if enough of them do it, the templars crack down on all of them, tighten their grip and use the mages who acted up as examples on why they're needed. Rinse and repeat.
Varic pretty much said this is what happened in Kirkwall after Act 2 when Meredith took control. She gained a great deal of power as the defacto Viscount, and squeezed harder. The harder she squeezed, the more the mages resisted, and the more they resisted, the harder she squeezed.
According to the Nevarran Accord, the mages in the Circle were originally supposed to govern themselves with a council of enchanters, be free to study magic of their choice, and in return they would live within these Circles and away from mundanes and allow the templars to stand guard in the event of an abomination, and watch out for troublemakers. But by the time Origins comes around, not even Ferelden follows that model. Gregoire, while a cool guy and a good templar, has a lot more power than the original Nevarran Accord granted to the templars. And Irviing admits that a lot of what he does is about survival. His exact line is "If you want to survive, you must learn the rules and know that sometimes sacrifices are necessary."
700 years of this downward spiral, hastened by the fact that three Annulments are called for within the same decade and two of them appear to be unjustified (Kirkwall and Rivain) has culminated in a powder keg of tension. It was bound to burst, as it did in Asunder.
Lose their humanity how?
The Rite of Tranquility.
Which they only lose their emotion and connection to the fade, other than that they still have free will and is allowed to do whatever
Which they only lose their emotion and connection to the fade, other than that they still have free will and is allowed to do whatever
Gaider may have said they retain their free will, but have you seen any tranquil in the game act in a manner outside what the templars explicitly tell them?
No they don't. Mages at least have magic to serve as a weapon to at least put up a fight. How many peasants can you say have the same in terms of ability.
And what of the Alienage purges, or the purge of Dust Town that happen every once in a while.
And those aren't because the area may be infested with demons, those are done for nothing other than spite. The Circles aren't the only places to suffer those kinds of things.
Which they only lose their emotion and connection to the fade, other than that they still have free will and is allowed to do whatever
Free will to serve the Chantry and do only what the Templars allow them to do.
Gaider may have said they retain their free will, but have you seen any tranquil in the game act in a manner outside what the templars explicitly tell them?
Just because we haven't seen it in game doesn't mean it isn't true, and we've only seen a few tranquils in-game
Which they only lose their emotion and connection to the fade, other than that they still have free will and is allowed to do whatever
Free will to serve the Chantry and do only what the Templars allow them to do.
Way to twist things around to make it sound oppressive
Way to twist things around to make it sound oppressive
Eh, it is not my fault it's the truth. It's not twisting it around, it's calling it how it is.
It is oppressive.
The lynch mobs who murder innocent mages in Andrastian kingdoms because they blame them for anything that goes wrong causes me to see things differently.
Dust Town is demolished by golems if you endorse Harrowmont as King and spare the Anvil.
And I'm getting tired of people whitewashing the Chantry controlled Circles on the basis of things being bad elsewhere.
This is a thread about the Circles. That's why they are the focal point of discussion.
The lynch mods hunting elves or dwarves for sport make me see things equally.
It's not whitewashing. Have I said the mages have it good? I said they are in a gilded cage. A gilded cage is still a cage as Zevran would say. I'm just saying the mages aren't the only ones who have it bad.
Free will to serve the Chantry and do only what the Templars allow them to do.
If Tranquil want to leave, they are allowed to.
Way to twist things around to make it sound oppressive
Karl referred to himself as a "templar puppet" when he begged for death over a return to tranquility, and Alrik used the Rite to rape female mages.
Alain was even raped by templars who threatened to make him tranquil if he told anyone.
Which is abusing their authority and they should've been dealt with, but that doesn't change what I said
And Kirkwall is literally the worst example of anything since it's meant to show the worst of both sides
The lynch mobs who murder innocent mages in Andrastian kingdoms because they blame them for anything that goes wrong causes me to see things differently.
Dust Town is demolished by golems if you endorse Harrowmont as King and spare the Anvil.
And I'm getting tired of people whitewashing the Chantry controlled Circles on the basis of things being bad elsewhere.
1. To be fair, those lynch mobs are usually killing untrained children according to Wynne. That doesn't make it better, but still.
2. Umm....that's never happened in any of my playthroughs or mentioned in the epilogue. Source?
3. You know how it is. "Mages may be emotionally traumatized, aren't allowed to have children, or depending on the Knight-Commander, relationships at all. Can get beaten for talking to civilians, raped without the rapist suffering any repercussions, may be the target of genocide for something they didn't do, and live in constant fear, whether of demons in the Fade or if a templar leers at them the wrong way, but things are bad elsewhere so they should shut up and deal with it! They aren't allowed to try to improve their situation or try to get away from their abusers."
Just because we haven't seen it in game doesn't mean it isn't true, and we've only seen a few tranquils in-game
The tranquil who says she belongs to Alrik and he's the only one who can command her tells a different tale. Yes, I'm hopeful that we meet a tranquil who shows more signs of free-will than the ones we have seen, but the in-game evidence simply doesn't match what Gaider said. It's also true that we haven't met that many tranquil, but the casual gamer, if they didn't know Gaider said that, wouldn't know it.
The lynch mods hunting elves or dwarves for sport make me see things equally.
It's not whitewashing. Have I said the mages have it good? I said they are in a gilded cage. A gilded cage is still a cage as Zevran would say. I'm just saying the mages aren't the only ones who have it bad.
Isn't there a Tranquil in Asunder who talks about them still having free will?
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