216 réponses à ce sujet

[AresKeith]

Eh, it is not my fault it's the truth. It's not twisting it around, it's calling it how it is.

It is oppressive. 

 

The facts make it sound oppressive because it is; the Rite of Tranquility is monstrous. The two times mages were freed from tranquility, they begged for death instead. That tells me how oppressive it actually is.

 

Because they are allowed to leave if they choose to, They still maintain free will. Not to mention that some mages actually asked and preferred to be made tranquil (unless you wanna dismiss them because it doesn't fit your view like others do)

 

I don't agree with everything the do but I see the reason behind why it was created

[AresKeith]

Isn't there a Tranquil in Asunder who talks about them still having free will?

 

I think so, or it was probably a codex explaining it

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I don't recall Andrastian lynch mobs hunting down dwarves or elves; I recall Mother Hannah reassuring an Amell Warden that a lynch mob wouldn't kill him for being a mage.


Which was never in dispute.

*cough* Denerim purge *cough*

 

You got up at arms at me when I brought up that CE and DC have it just as bad if not worse than Mages. 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

 

Isn't there a Tranquil in Asunder who talks about them still having free will?

 

I think so, or it was probably a codex explaining it

It definiely wasn't a Codex, though there may be evidence there too. I remember a Tranquil taking to Wynne about it, which means either it was in Origins or Asunder.

[AresKeith]

The tranquil who says she belongs to Alrik and he's the only one who can command her tells a different tale. Yes, I'm hopeful that we meet a tranquil who shows more signs of free-will than the ones we have seen, but the in-game evidence simply doesn't match what Gaider said. It's also true that we haven't met that many tranquil, but the casual gamer, if they didn't know Gaider said that, wouldn't know it. 

 

At this instance I tend to take the dev's words first, and this isn't the first time the game matches what devs say

[dragonflight288]

At this instance I tend to take the dev's words first, and this isn't the first time the game matches what devs say

 

I'll take his word too. He is the lead writer for the series, and did write Asunder. But the point I was making is that if you haven't read the novel and didn't pay attention to the devs, and only played the games, there is no way to tell. And the tranquil in-game make a very poor case about having free will, especially when one of them says she belongs to Alrik.

[LobselVith8]

1. To be fair, those lynch mobs are usually killing untrained children according to Wynne. That doesn't make it better, but still.

Mother Hannah's reassurances to a human mage did give me the impression that it was a cause of concern, even for an adult.

2. Umm....that's never happened in any of my playthroughs or mentioned in the epilogue. Source?

You can read it on Pyral Harrowmont's page or in the Epilogue section on the unofficial Dragon Age Wiki; I'm on my phone at the moment, so I can't link to one of the YouTube videos showing the ending, my apologies.

[dragonflight288]

Mother Hannah's reassurances to a human mage did give me the impression that it was a cause of concern, even for an adult.


You can read it on Pyral Harrowmont's page or in the Epilogue section on the unofficial Dragon Age Wiki; I'm on my phone at the moment, so I can't link to one of the YouTube videos showing the ending, my apologies.

 

1. I got that impression as well, especially when you add in Morrigan mentioning how a Chasind accused her of being a witch, so she batted her eyelashes at the captain of the guard and the Chasind ended up arrested.

 

2. Hmm. I know on my most recent playthrough with my dwarven warden who made Harrowmont king and saved the Anvil is how he became more successful, destroying Bhelen's rebellion. It doesn't mention Dust Town. 

[AresKeith]

I'll take his word too. He is the lead writer for the series, and did write Asunder. But the point I was making is that if you haven't read the novel and didn't pay attention to the devs, and only played the games, there is no way to tell. And the tranquil in-game make a very poor case about having free will, especially when one of them says she belongs to Alrik.

 

I can understand that

[LobselVith8]

Because they are allowed to leave if they choose to, They still maintain free will. Not to mention that some mages actually asked and preferred to be made tranquil (unless you wanna dismiss them because it doesn't fit your view like others do)

I don't agree with everything the do but I see the reason behind why it was created

Karl referring to himself as a "templar puppet" and Alrik using the Rite to rape female mages addresses the problem with your retort.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Karl referring to himself as a "templar puppet" and Alrik using the Rite to rape female mages addresses the problem with your retort.

No more than the Baroness addresses the problem of anyone saying "Mages should be able to rule". A single Templar's influence, since Karl was made Tranquil by Alrik, is no more evidence of a system than what a single apostate does.

[LobselVith8]

*cough* Denerim purge *cough*

I remember the purge, and the massacre of the orphanage.

The dwarves of Dust Town having their section of the city reduced to rubble, however, seemed isolated to Harrowmont using the golems.

You got up at arms at me when I brought up that CE and DC have it just as bad if not worse than Mages.

I was in the midst of a discussion with another poster where the trials and tribulations of others were being argued to negate the plight faced by the mages.

[AresKeith]

Karl referring to himself as a "templar puppet" and Alrik using the Rite to rape female mages addresses the problem with your retort.

 

I've already acknowledged that Karl is an unfortunate case during due to abusive authority, and what Alrik did isn't even the norm for what all Templars 

[Rainbow Wyvern]

Because they are allowed to leave if they choose to, They still maintain free will. Not to mention that some mages actually asked and preferred to be made tranquil (unless you wanna dismiss them because it doesn't fit your view like others do)

 

I don't agree with everything the do but I see the reason behind why it was created

So emotionally decapitating someone is okay because "lol we let them leave if they want to"?

 

Some mages may ask to be made Tranquil, but some don't. They're made Tranquil because a Templar has a slight feeling they might be a blood mage, or that they won't pass their Harrowing. 

Or maybe that Templar is a sick freak like Alrik, and wants to 'have his way' with some mages.

I wouldn't be opposed to Tranquility if they only used it on mages who committed serious crimes, or who want it, but that's just not the case for the most part.

[LobselVith8]

No more than the Baroness addresses the problem of anyone saying "Mages should be able to rule". A single Templar's influence, since Karl was made Tranquil by Alrik, is no more evidence of a system than what a single apostate does.

I think you misunderstood me. I'm addressing the nature of tranquility. Using the Rite of Tranquility to force women to engage in carnal contact with you demonstrates that there's a problematic issue with saying that the tranquil have "free will", as though they're still the same despite the removal of their emotions.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

So emotionally decapitating someone is okay because "lol we let them leave if they want to"?

 

Some mages may ask to be made Tranquil, but some don't. They're made Tranquil because a Templar has a slight feeling they might be a blood mage, or that they won't pass their Harrowing. 

Or maybe that Templar is a sick freak like Alrik, and wants to 'have his way' with some mages.

I wouldn't be opposed to Tranquility if they only used it on mages who committed serious crimes, or who want it, but that's just not the case for the most part.

Except being a blood mage is a serious crime. And apprentices are only made Tranquil if the are afraid they won't pass the Harrowing and would rather have that than death. 

[dragonflight288]

Except being a blood mage is a serious crime. And apprentices are only made Tranquil if the are afraid they won't pass the Harrowing and would rather have that than death. 

 

Or if the templars feel they are weak. 

[AresKeith]

So emotionally decapitating someone is okay because "lol we let them leave if they want to"?

 

Some mages may ask to be made Tranquil, but some don't. They're made Tranquil because a Templar has a slight feeling they might be a blood mage, or that they won't pass their Harrowing. 

Or maybe that Templar is a sick freak like Alrik, and wants to 'have his way' with some mages.

I wouldn't be opposed to Tranquility if they only used it on mages who committed serious crimes, or who want it, but that's just not the case for the most part.

 

And the First Enchanter has to agree to it also before the Templar make the mage Tranquil

 

The case where Tranquility is actually abused is Kirkwall, and some can consider the events of Asunder.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I think you misunderstood me. I'm addressing the nature of tranquility. Using the Rite of Tranquility to force women to engage in carnal contact with you demonstrates that there's a problematic issue with saying that the tranquil have "free will", as though they're still the same despite the removal of their emotions.

 

You gave an example about how a single man abuses a system, so I responded by giving another example of a similar concept. What Alrik did was terrible, there is no question in that. But that's on him, not Tranquility itself. Who knows what he said after the act of tranquilizing them to make them comply. He knew how Tranquility worked and how Tranquil thought, and he played off that knowledge for his advantage. 

[Lotion Soronarr]

Irving admits he didn't know about any of the evidence first-hand; it's all "Greagoir says", so he's effectively out of the loop. Irving also admits he wouldn't proceed with Jowan's Rite of Tranquility it was up to him; he cautions that life in the Circle is a matter of survival.

 

IIRC, Irwing sez he hasn't seen the evidence YET.

To me it left the impression that the final decision hasn't been made yet - after all, they didn't immediately arrest and tranquil Jowan. Rather he was running around the Cirlce for a while.

 

Obviously there was more to the entire process and it wasn't finished yet.

Otherwise, what's the point of waiting?

[LobselVith8]

IIRC, Irwing sez he hasn't seen the evidence YET.
To me it left the impression that the final decision hasn't been made yet - after all, they didn't immediately arrest and tranquil Jowan. Rather he was running around the Cirlce for a while.

Obviously there was more to the entire process and it wasn't finished yet.
Otherwise, what's the point of waiting?

The Rite was already signed by Irving. The decision was made (and Irving admits that while things would be different if it were up to him, "but the Chantry..."), since Lily warned Jowan about seeing Irving's signature on the document.

Irving even admits the Rite will happen if you confront him about it, even if you try to dissuade him.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

In the Templar's defense, their suspicions were right. I mean, Jowan was a blood mage. 

[LobselVith8]

In the Templar's defense, their suspicions were right. I mean, Jowan was a blood mage.

That's not really the point. It's problematic because the First Enchanter signed the Rite without actually being privy to the evidence against the apprentice in question.

[TheKomandorShepard]

That's not really the point. It's problematic because the First Enchanter signed the Rite without actually being privy to the evidence against the apprentice in question.

 

By this point you should understand if templars says that mage is blood mage this mage is blood mage rule of da.

[Shadow Fox]

I remember the purge, and the massacre of the orphanage.

The dwarves of Dust Town having their section of the city reduced to rubble, however, seemed isolated to Harrowmont using the golems.


I was in the midst of a discussion with another poster where the trials and tribulations of others were being argued to negate the plight faced by the mages.

No I'm saying mages have it bad yes but 90% of Thedas has it worse so I fail to see why the mages plight itself deserves special consideration.