216 réponses à ce sujet

[Cainhurst Crow]

Isn't there a Tranquil in Asunder who talks about them still having free will?

 

And in origins, in fact owain pretty much runs circles around any attempt to try and convince him he's less of a person then he was before.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Oppression is prolonged cruel or unjust treatment or control. Sounds like the Chantry controlled Circles, the Alienages, and what the casteless go through. Just because one oppressed party has it slightly better than another doesn't make them spoiled brats for complaining about it. 

 

I'd post a more thought out post but I'm kinda tired so meh.

 

What does the chantry have to do with dwarven politics?

[LobselVith8]

And in origins, in fact owain pretty much runs circles around any attempt to try and convince him he's less of a person then he was before.

Owain thought it was better to clean than to notify Wynne he was on the other side of the barrier. That's the kind of "free will" exhibited by tranquil.

It's a monstrous process. Pharamond wanting death over a return to tranquility seems to echo Karl's own pleas for an end to his life when he's temporarily freed from tranquility.

[Cainhurst Crow]

-snip-

Some very good points and observations. Keeping mages mentally and emotionally healthy is important, though I would like to point out a lot of the mages in the circle, at least in origins, don't seem emotionally distressed about living in the circle, some even preferring it immensely, see finn from witch hunt. Regardless, the circle isn't really the problem, but the way the circle was handled, or more specifically the way one branch of the circle system conducted itself. Now, much like in life, there are some institutions of education that end up rotting from the upper branches due to lots of issues, apathetic staff among them. But I don't think that is grounds for abolishing all schools, not even close. Reform the schools, removing what elements didn't work but don't just throw the whole thing in the dirt as if it hasn't done any good and that the problems arising were not a recent phenomena because they were. We need better seekers is what we need, who do their jobs and intervene when crimes are committed. In my opinion that is the crux of the problem.

 

Not that you said the circles needed to be done away with, but I have a feeling that's the direction this thread will be headed, by the time this post is made.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Owain thought it was better to clean than to notify Wynne he was on the other side of the barrier. That's the kind of "free will" exhibited by tranquil.

It's a monstrous process. Pharamond wanting death over a return to tranquility seems to echo Karl's own pleas for an end to his life when he's temporarily freed from tranquility.

 

Yes, it's a wonder that Owain didn't want to venture out of his hiding place to get pounced upon by the demonic forces you had to fight through to get to where he was. What a horrible thing to have some common sense and a desire not to be gutted and worn like a suit.
 

And what a horrible being he is, wanting to keep himself busy rather then standing still, what with his lack of overwhelming fear to make him go crawling into the corner to shiver like a ball of mush.

 

And so what if reversing the rite turned pharamond into an emotionally unstable junkie right? I mean, at least he's still able to think and act so he can be a puppet to his hyper-enhanced emotions instead of, you know, actually back to how he was before he was tranquiled.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Karl referred to himself as a "templar puppet" when he begged for death over a return to tranquility, and Alrik used the Rite to rape female mages.

Alain was even raped by templars who threatened to make him tranquil if he told anyone.

 

Your using kirkwall as evidence for a norm? What kind of horseshit is this?

 

That's like citing the prequel movies for information regarding star wars. A shameful display.
 

[LobselVith8]

Yes, it's a wonder that Owain didn't want to venture out of his hiding place to get pounced upon by the demonic forces you had to fight through to get to where he was. What a horrible thing to have some common sense and a desire not to be gutted and worn like a suit.

Refusing to let Wynne know he was on the other side of the barrier so he can get to safety, and cleaning instead of hiding, are not examples of common sense.

And what a horrible being he is, wanting to keep himself busy rather then standing still, what with his lack of overwhelming fear to make him go crawling into the corner to shiver like a ball of mush.

Cleaning where anyone entering can see him, instead of hiding so he's out of view from anyone who would threaten him; I see a problem with that.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Refusing to let Wynne know he was on the other side of the barrier so he can get to safety, and cleaning instead of hiding, are not examples of common sense.


Cleaning where anyone entering can see him, instead of hiding so he's out of view from anyone who would threaten him; I see a problem with that.

 

I don't. The demons had gone to the lower levels, you know, where wynne and her barrier was. So yeah, your situation would have owain, who can't use magic, go down through the librabry full of rage demon abominations and hope they somehow didn't catch him, and hopefully, despite everything, there were actually people on the other side of that barrier who would actually hear him before the demons and abominations did.

 

You are not the brightest banana in the bunch, are you kid? The tranquil think different then you or I, that doesn't make them less human or lacking in free will. And the fact you would be so dismissive of another living creatures ability to self determine just because it doesn't match your own is really telling.

[LobselVith8]

Your using kirkwall as evidence for a norm? What kind of horseshit is this?

That's like citing the prequel movies for information regarding star wars. A shameful display.

I'm addressing the nature of tranquility itself. No need to try to change the goalpost.

Since the nature of tranquility is exhibited in Karl and Alrik's sex slave tranquil, I see no reason to dismiss it. Karl and Pharamond preferring death to a return to tranquility also a factor I take into consideration.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Citing DA2 on how tranquility is flawed because it, like everything else, was pushed to the nth degree for shock value. It doesn't make you a slave or give you memory lost as DA2 tries to present it as, and the way it's handled pretty much goes counter to the lore on what tranquility is and how it works, even counter to DA2's own codex entry on tranquility.

 

In other words, tranquility is just another in the long line of lore violations dragon age 2 committed.

[LobselVith8]

I don't. The demons had gone to the lower levels, you know, where wynne and her barrier was. So yeah, your situation would have owain, who can't use magic, go down through the librabry full of rage demon abominations and hope they somehow didn't catch him, and hopefully, despite everything, there were actually people on the other side of that barrier who would actually hear him before the demons and abominations did.

Owain says he went to Wynne's barrier, and the returned to the storeroom. She even tells him she would have lowered the barrier if he simply let her know he was on the other side.

You are not the brightest banana in the bunch, are you kid? The tranquil think different then you or I, that doesn't make them less human or lacking in free will. And the fact you would be so dismissive of another living creatures ability to self determine just because it doesn't match your own is really telling.

You're resorting to name calling, yet again, when you don't even have your facts straight?

[Cainhurst Crow]

How did owain know anyone was on the other side? Maybe she should have left some kind of indication. I mean, she didn't even bother letting the templars know she and the others were still alive. So I really doubt things are as cut and dry as you claim they are.

[Lotion Soronarr]

The Rite was already signed by Irving. The decision was made (and Irving admits that while things would be different if it were up to him, "but the Chantry..."), since Lily warned Jowan about seeing Irving's signature on the document.

Irving even admits the Rite will happen if you confront him about it, even if you try to dissuade him.

 

Then Irwing obviously agreed.

 

Either he was working with Gregoire for so long he believed in his judgment without need for evidence, or he suspected Jowan himself and Gregoirs mention of evidence confirmed his suspicion.

 

At no point is there an indication that Irwing was forced to sign anything, thus you cannot put blame on the templars here if Irwing didn't bother to look into the evidence.

[KaiserShep]

Citing DA2 on how tranquility is flawed because it, like everything else, was pushed to the nth degree for shock value. It doesn't make you a slave or give you memory lost as DA2 tries to present it as, and the way it's handled pretty much goes counter to the lore on what tranquility is and how it works, even counter to DA2's own codex entry on tranquility.

 

In other words, tranquility is just another in the long line of lore violations dragon age 2 committed.

 

I don't recall anything in DA2 that suggests that being made tranquil causes those subject to it to lose their memory. Karl remembers Anders and everything else just fine. The only other tranquil we really speak to at the Templar Hall to doesn't have any back story to go on; we only know that she serves Meredith and little else. Also, while being made tranquil does not make one a slave, it does make one more amenable, simply because, as the wiki states: "The Tranquil are stripped of their capacity to form anything other than a logical opinion." It would likely be logical for tranquil Karl to now do as the Templars ask simply for his own well being and to maintain order, without any negative emotional responses to get in the way. I didn't see tranquility in any more of a positive light in DA:O after having the Warden engage in conversation with that one Tranquil in Ostagar. In person, someone like the tranquil would come off as creepy, because he/she lacks any semblance of a personality. Necessary or not, a person made tranquil is essentially incomplete.

The one tricky bit that I'm unsure of is how Anders/Justice was able to temporarily restore Karl's emotional center. The part that actually bothered me the most was that Anders is now talking to a temporarily emotional Karl, yet insists that tranquility is still definitely incurable.

[JoltDealer]

There are several Circles of Magi in Thedas.  Each one is different depending on the populace's view of mages.  Not to mention, in Asunder, over a decade has passed since Dragon Age: Origins.  A lot can change in ten years.  Things are going to be different.

[Xilizhra]

Some very good points and observations. Keeping mages mentally and emotionally healthy is important, though I would like to point out a lot of the mages in the circle, at least in origins, don't seem emotionally distressed about living in the circle, some even preferring it immensely, see finn from witch hunt. Regardless, the circle isn't really the problem, but the way the circle was handled, or more specifically the way one branch of the circle system conducted itself. Now, much like in life, there are some institutions of education that end up rotting from the upper branches due to lots of issues, apathetic staff among them. But I don't think that is grounds for abolishing all schools, not even close. Reform the schools, removing what elements didn't work but don't just throw the whole thing in the dirt as if it hasn't done any good and that the problems arising were not a recent phenomena because they were. We need better seekers is what we need, who do their jobs and intervene when crimes are committed. In my opinion that is the crux of the problem.

 

Not that you said the circles needed to be done away with, but I have a feeling that's the direction this thread will be headed, by the time this post is made.

All schools would have to be done away with, however, if they were all run by, say, the SS. We could think that the general concept might be sound in some ways, but the leadership and their policies were far too malign to be allowed to survive. I would also contest the part about emotional distress in some ways; there were certainly never any mages I spoke to aside from the very introverted and studious Finn who actually seemed happy about their lot. As I mentioned, the two most prevailing emotions in the Circle were resignation and fear.

 

And so what if reversing the rite turned pharamond into an emotionally unstable junkie right? I mean, at least he's still able to think and act so he can be a puppet to his hyper-enhanced emotions instead of, you know, actually back to how he was before he was tranquiled.

There'd probably be a recovery process while he re-acclimatized to his emotions. In any case, if you actually asked as others did, he'd vastly prefer to remain having enhanced emotions anyway.

 

You are not the brightest banana in the bunch, are you kid? The tranquil think different then you or I, that doesn't make them less human or lacking in free will. And the fact you would be so dismissive of another living creatures ability to self determine just because it doesn't match your own is really telling.

The Tranquil are locked in constant subconscious torment because their emotions don't actually go away, they just can't truly experience them. It's an atrocious state to be in.

[Lotion Soronarr]

More Xilonisms...

[dragonflight288]

Some very good points and observations. Keeping mages mentally and emotionally healthy is important, though I would like to point out a lot of the mages in the circle, at least in origins, don't seem emotionally distressed about living in the circle, some even preferring it immensely, see finn from witch hunt. Regardless, the circle isn't really the problem, but the way the circle was handled, or more specifically the way one branch of the circle system conducted itself. Now, much like in life, there are some institutions of education that end up rotting from the upper branches due to lots of issues, apathetic staff among them. But I don't think that is grounds for abolishing all schools, not even close. Reform the schools, removing what elements didn't work but don't just throw the whole thing in the dirt as if it hasn't done any good and that the problems arising were not a recent phenomena because they were. We need better seekers is what we need, who do their jobs and intervene when crimes are committed. In my opinion that is the crux of the problem.

 

Not that you said the circles needed to be done away with, but I have a feeling that's the direction this thread will be headed, by the time this post is made.

 

While a good point, I feel I should point out that while Finn seemed happy in the Circle, he was also far more distressed if he had to do any extra physical effort and hated being outside. As he says, "Want to know something else that's outside? Mosquitos! Waiting to feast upon a mages untasted flesh." He didn't like outside to exercise and was relieved when Anders escaped during one session and the whole thing was cancelled, and freaks out when he gets mud on his robes. 

 

It was surprisingly fun listening to his banter.

[LobselVith8]

How did owain know anyone was on the other side? Maybe she should have left some kind of indication. I mean, she didn't even bother letting the templars know she and the others were still alive. So I really doubt things are as cut and dry as you claim they are.

It's a magical barrier erected by a mage, and it needs to be intentionally maintained by the respective mage (which The Warden and Wynne comment on). Wynne even wonders aloud why Owan didn't notify her that he was on the other side of the barrier (because he mentions encountering it), since she could have lowered it to allow him inside the room.

It's this kind of tranquil mentality that I'm addressing. Instead of simply letting Wynne know he was on the other side of the barrier, he goes back into the danger zone of abominations and possessed templars to clean the storeroom.

As for the templars lead by Greagoir, they intentionally barricaded the huge, thick door because of the abomination threat, and only permit The Warden and his moiety crew inside the inner corridors of the Tower because the protagonist offers to resolve the abomination outbreak.

[Shadow Fox]

Then Irwing obviously agreed.

 

Either he was working with Gregoire for so long he believed in his judgment without need for evidence, or he suspected Jowan himself and Gregoirs mention of evidence confirmed his suspicion.

 

At no point is there an indication that Irwing was forced to sign anything, thus you cannot put blame on the templars here if Irwing didn't bother to look into the evidence.

I'll agree with this: Irving was far from innocent in that affair.

[AresKeith]

Didn't they find a book hidden by Jowan that teaches Blood Magic?

[LobselVith8]

Then Irwing obviously agreed.

 

Either he was working with Gregoire for so long he believed in his judgment without need for evidence, or he suspected Jowan himself and Gregoirs mention of evidence confirmed his suspicion.

 

At no point is there an indication that Irwing was forced to sign anything, thus you cannot put blame on the templars here if Irwing didn't bother to look into the evidence.

 

Except, when addressing the Rite of Tranquility, Irving concedes that things would be different if it was left to him, but they aren't because of the Chantry. Also, Irving addresses the issues of survival for a mage living in the Chantry controlled Circle. Irving even admits, "If you want to survive, you must learn the rules and realize that sometimes, sacrifices are necessary." That's the environment of the Circle of Ferelden.

 

Despite being an Aequitarian, Irving doesn't think the Chantry or the templars have the best interests of the mages at heart: "And Chantry and templars are models of magnanimity? They would make us all Tranquil if they could, and call it a kindness. They fancy themselves our guardians, sitting smugly on their righteousness."

[dragonflight288]

Didn't they find a book hidden by Jowan that teaches Blood Magic?

 

Irving removed all books on blood magic from the library, and says he had been advised to move them to a place where apprentices can't read them. 

[AresKeith]

Irving removed all books on blood magic from the library, and says he had been advised to move them to a place where apprentices can't read them. 

 

But that doesn't mean Jowan couldn't have found one and learned blood magic

[dragonflight288]

But that doesn't mean Jowan couldn't have found one and learned blood magic

 

He removed them after the rumors of Jowan being a blood mage started. Right after your Harrowing, if you go into the library, there is a completely bare shelf, but in Broken Circle, that shelf is filled with books. The books are on Irving's desk, and they're all on blood magic. 

 

Jowan admits he had been acting in secret for months, mainly to see Lily, but he had also been dabbling in blood magic. It isn't made clear how long he had been dabbling, but the books were removed only very recently before the Harrowing in the mage origin, maybe even while the warden is in bed recovering from the Harrowing. 

 

No proof, but it's obvious that the books were removed only recently. Quite possibly enough time for Jowan to learn from a book.