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Tonal shift in the Circle's presentation


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#201
TheKomandorShepard

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lmfao, almost every word of that is demonstrably wrong. First, I already proved your 'only two templars were abusive' claim as blantantly false. Second, negligence is also a form of abuse. Samson was thrown out of the order and to the wolves for delivering a love letter. That's the extent of his heinous crimes. Did we even play the same game?

 

****** poor and dishonest defense.

Not rly as i said game shows only 2 corrupted templars and perhaps peoples with alrik and note that here "perhaps" any others templars nope...

So police abuses you? nope same with templars...

It was illegal and even in our times if someone brake law is punished and whether it was stealing for fun or to feed your starving family... simple and do i have mention that he was helping escape mages and selling them to slavers ,even if after he still was corrupted and naive like thrask.

 

It is defense based on reality so well



#202
Sir JK

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I addressed the Chantry controlled Circles because it's uncertain what the mages of the autonomous or dissolved Circles will do about the Rite of Tranquility now that they aren't beholden to the Chantry of Andraste and the Order of Templars; that's why I tried to address it as separate from when the Circles voted to emancipate themselves from the Chantry. I wasn't implying that my perception of tranquility would shift if the perpetrators of the Rite were different people.

 

Regardless of the tonal shift in the presentation of the Circles, I abhor the Rite of Tranquility, and I wouldn't endorse it's use by anyone.

 

I think that it depends on details regarding the rite itself. Chief among them being: which group invented the practice and the degree mages participate in the decision to enact it.

 

These points are important to be able to predict whether it'll continue because it'll both tell us what history it has and give us further insight to why it was instituted the way it was. For instance, the Right of Annulment is clearly a practise of templar origin. Regardless of it's purpose, it's clearly a mundane means to remove the threat (real or imagined) an out-of-control circle poses to society (in part or entirety). It's primary mechanism is force of arms and it's primary determinator is clearly outside of the circles.

 

The Rite is different, because it's a supernatural process and deals primarily with magical or meta-magical ability. It's stated purpose (which might not be it's true purpose) is to protect mages incapable of defending themselves against demons from needing to do so. This suggests it's a practise created by mages, both because it is supernatural in origin (and while the Templars have supernatural ability, they're not that knowledgeable about it) and because since mages handle their own education they are the only ones truly capable of doing any form of accurate predicition regarding their student's ability to resist a demon. This is supported given how stringly regulated it is according to Chantry law (you cannot tranquilize a harrowed mage, the First Enchanter and the KC both need to approve of it and so forth). It is not certain it is, but it's not terribly unlikely it is.

 

And if it is, then chances are many mages will want to keep the practise. Particularly among loyalists and Aequtarians. Because then the narrative of it's neccessity will be deeply ingrained into the mage community as well as the templar one. When Xil and I discussed this I suggested that a good litmus test would be if Tevinter is following this practise. If they are, then chances are the independent circles will as well. Regardless of how horrible the practise is.

 

I find it difficult to believe that the abuse of authority begins and ends in Kirkwall. If it can happen in Kirkwall it can happen in any of the other circles. That is the issue. That is the problem. Fereldan can be just like Kirkwall or even worse, all you need do is replace the KC with a Meredith. To fix this glaring flaw you would need the seekers to actually do their damned jobs, but I digress. Tranquility is disgusting and it will not stop being so simply because it's easy to excuse as 'necessary'.

 

I agree. I'd even go so far to say that it'd be downright naïve to assume that abuses only happens in rare occassion in Kirkwall. Most of the Templar order is not corrupt or abusing it's authority (beyond what abuses you may consider the system as it is to be). But it is going to happen at all but the most stringently controlled circles. The Templars are no more above corruption and abuse than say mages are. The Seekers are clearly failing in their duties in this regard.

 

Alrik and Kerras are rather infamous, and Meredith's failure to see their corruption is telling (though Alrik's letter tells us he was actively trying to hide what he did from her and even threatened his own men not to say a word about it). But Rylock is another example of a templar abusing her authority in a clearly illegal fashion, and she belongs to the far more liberal and less excessive Fereldan order and not Kirkwalls far more authoritarian one. That Kirkwall uses ser Roderick the drunk to check up on it's internal corruption is also very telling... and this on a matter Meredith would consider rather important. Sweeping the death of a mageling in the dungeons of White Spire under the rug is another damning bit.

 

The templar order is rife with problems and abuses that by no means stay at Kirkwall's border. I may be pro-templar, but I'd never ever pretend the order is somehow above this corruption.


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#203
TheKomandorShepard

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I agree. I'd even go so far to say that it'd be downright naïve to assume that abuses only happens in rare occassion in Kirkwall. Most of the Templar order is not corrupt or abusing it's authority (beyond what abuses you may consider the system as it is to be). But it is going to happen at all but the most stringently controlled circles. The Templars are no more above corruption and abuse than say mages are. The Seekers are clearly failing in their duties in this regard.

 

Alrik and Kerras are rather infamous, and Meredith's failure to see their corruption is telling (though Alrik's letter tells us he was actively trying to hide what he did from her and even threatened his own men not to say a word about it). But Rylock is another example of a templar abusing her authority in a clearly illegal fashion, and she belongs to the far more liberal and less excessive Fereldan order and not Kirkwalls far more authoritarian one. That Kirkwall uses ser Roderick the drunk to check up on it's internal corruption is also very telling... and this on a matter Meredith would consider rather important. Sweeping the death of a mageling in the dungeons of White Spire under the rug is another damning bit.

 

The templar order is rife with problems and abuses that by no means stay at Kirkwall's border. I may be pro-templar, but I'd never ever pretend the order is somehow above this corruption.

 

Corruption is everywhere it doesn't matter it is in our police it is in military but it hardly matters as corruption is low or organisation still is doing their job.We were 7 years in kirkwall and yet there were only 2 peoples who were corrupted among templars and that supports that templars were in low-corruption area unlike mages that we meet almost every day that is even stated by hawke who says it would be nice have at least 1 week without insane power hungry blood mages...

 

And rylock was 1 example with 2 templars on her side it is like crying because there are corrupted peoples in police...



#204
dragonflight288

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Indeed, that's just insulting

 

Is it really insulting to those who completely lack the capacity to be offended?


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#205
Iron Fist

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Is it really insulting to those who completely lack the capacity to be offended?

 

If one's intention is to insult and the victim cannot be insulted, then it seems pointless to have even insulted that person in the first place.

 

You're effectively insulting yourself by wasting time on something so trivial.


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#206
dragonflight288

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If one's intention is to insult and the victim cannot be insulted, then it seems pointless to have even insulted that person in the first place.

 

You're effectively insulting yourself by wasting time on something so trivial.

 

Wow, my Amell warden must really have insulted himself then by saying straight to Owain's face that he no longer qualifies as a person.


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#207
Shadow Fox

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Wow, my Amell warden must really have insulted himself then by saying straight to Owain's face that he no longer qualifies as a person.

Why would you insult Owain though?


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#208
AresKeith

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Wow, my Amell warden must really have insulted himself then by saying straight to Owain's face that he no longer qualifies as a person.

 

Saying that is a straight up insult period



#209
Shadow Fox

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Saying that is a straight up insult period

Yeah it sounds uncomfortably similar to insulting someone who's mentally deficient to me.


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#210
LobselVith8

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Why would you insult Owain though?

 

Maybe Dragon's Warden was commenting on how inhibited and unemotional Owain was as a tranquil, which is a view shared by former tranquil mage Karl when he compared the state to being a "templar puppet". To have no emotion, no passion, no feelings, no humanity, because you're cut off from the Fade - maybe Dragon's Warden was simply horrified that this procedure was actually done to living beings. I know that, after speaking with Owain, it was perfectly understandable why Jowan was so frightened at the prospect of being forced to become tranquil.


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#211
Shadow Fox

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Maybe Dragon's Warden was commenting on how inhibited and unemotional Owain was as a tranquil, which is a view shared by former tranquil mage Karl when he compared the state to being a "templar puppet". To have no emotion, no passion, no feelings, no humanity, because you're cut off from the Fade - maybe Dragon's Warden was simply horrified that this procedure was actually done to living beings. I know that, after speaking with Owain, it was perfectly understandable why Jowan was so frightened at the prospect of being forced to become tranquil.

Like I said telling a tranquil he's not a person anymore sounds disturbingly similar to the persecution of the mentally deficient to me.



#212
dragonflight288

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Why would you insult Owain though?

 

I was roleplaying a jerk Amell.


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#213
Shadow Fox

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I was roleplaying a jerk Amell.

Oh that's okay then.



#214
wcholcombe

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Oh great are we gonna have another Mage/templar thread.  Cause I swear we are making the same arguments:

 

But anyway with regards to Xil's original Query:

 

No, I don't think it is a change in the situation of the circles or even in the way it was in DAO.  The question of the Boon is very simple-Anora/Allistaire promised more than they had the power to deliver.  I can remember thinking at the time that it made no sense to agree to that when they didn't even control said circle.

 

In Stolen Throne, the chantry/circle relationship is presented largely the same as in DAO from what we see of it.  Chantry controls the circle and its involvement in events. The mages enjoy a good deal of freedom- court mages, mage assassins from Orlais, etc.

 

In the Calling, the circles are seen to be fairly free. Duncan even sneaks off with a mage chick and gets some alone time.  They even have the autonomy of meeting with the Architect and coming up with a way to turn the whole world into Darkspawn without the templars being able to stop them.

 

Awakening we really don't get much other than the Anders/templar story.

 

DA2 is obviously what it is and I think Asunder is a change in view forced by the reactionary elements to events that have transpired on both sides.  Hardliners on both sides reacting to what they see as atrocities committed by the other side. 

 

The relationship/story hasn't changed.  In Asunder, Rhys himself often talks about how much better things were before Kirkwall.  Its just a change in the framing of the story by the recent and tragic events.



#215
Aurelet

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Wynne says the templars claimed fourteen year old Aneirin was a maleficar; the elf who became Aneirin the Healer, and likes to go out amongst nature.

The fact that Wynne dismisses this, and even invites Aneirin to return to the Circle, makes it clear how accurate she thought this was.

Well, Wynne is pretty stupid about the circle.  I always wonder why SHE didn't go back to it if it was so great.



#216
Jedi Master of Orion

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Doesn't she become First Enchanter in some endings?



#217
Aurelet

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Doesn't she become First Enchanter in some endings?

No. It's offered to her but she either "Advises the king" "heads off to help Shale" or I think there is one more but can't remember it.