Which isn't surprising, since Ariane infers that the Circle stole some elven tomes and artifacts during the fall of the Dales.
"Stealing" is such an ugly word. They preserved them, the elves should be grateful.
Tevinter also preserved the eluvians, something else they should be grateful for.
I prefer 'liberate' myself. Gogogo western sixties lingo.
That depends on which historical account you read; the Chantry and the Dalish differ on the inception of that conflict.
The inception of the conflict has nothing to do with the nature of the combats themselves. Regardless of how it started, it is an historical fact that the elves pushed well into human lands before being beaten back. Therefore, since they were on the attack for most of it, they did not fight a defensive war.
The inception of the conflict has nothing to do with the nature of the combats themselves. Regardless of how it started, it is an historical fact that the elves pushed well into human lands before being beaten back. Therefore, since they were on the attack for most of it, they did not fight a defensive war.
I respectfully disagree. How it started matters. If the Dales was invaded and the elves were defending their territory, then it was defensive. If the elves were then looking to cripple their adversary to prevent another incursion of their territory, that doesn't change that they were initially defending themselves against a conquering foe.
The inception of the conflict has nothing to do with the nature of the combats themselves. Regardless of how it started, it is an historical fact that the elves pushed well into human lands before being beaten back. Therefore, since they were on the attack for most of it, they did not fight a defensive war.
I read that all in Tywin Lannister's voice. XD
Anyway, it raises a question if the dalish had won, would they have taken a lot of circle and chantry property as war trophies. I think yes but I'm not sure why.
I respectfully disagree. How it started matters. If the Dales was invaded and the elves were defending their territory, then it was defensive. If the elves were then looking to cripple their adversary to prevent another incursion of their territory, that doesn't change that they were initially defending themselves against a conquering foe.
You are disagreeing with the conventions of war themselves. The minute the elves invaded another's territory, then they ceased to be defenders and became agressors by the very definition of the word.military campaign in history has been justified. That still doesn't change the definition of words and how they apply to people and actions.
A person who beat up someone who entered his house uninvited is defending his proprierty. But if he pursues the enemy until its own house, then he becomes the one guilty of breaking and entering.
You are disagreeing with the conventions of war themselves. The minute the elves invaded another's territory, then they ceased to be defenders and became agressors by the very definition of the word.military campaign in history has been justified. That still doesn't change the definition of words and how they apply to people and actions.
A person who beat up someone who entered his house uninvited is defending his proprierty. But if he pursues the enemy until its own house, then he becomes the one guilty of breaking and entering.
If the Dalish are trying to prevent a nemesis from taking away their freedom to worship the Creators or follow their elven customers by making certain they aren't in a position to harm them again, since Orlais is a nearby nation that shares borders with the Dales that can't simply go away into a distant house where they won't cause the elves any further harm (as per your example), than it's quite a different matter.
Of course, I think we're diverting a bit too much away from the original topic at hand, which is supposed to be about the leadership of the templars now that Lambert has gone missing.
A "different matter"? The law will still call you a trespasser if you enter your neighbor's house without his permission and your argument that you "shared a border" wouldn't fly in court.
Much like the elves became agressors the moment they invaded Orlais
Tevinter seems a little preoccupied with their never-ending war with the Qunari.
It was an example. Not every comment about the Dalish requires your obsessive defense.
Actually, I was originally participating in this thread when people were shifting the focus from templar leadership (with the power vacuum left by Lambert's disappearance) to Anders. Admittedly, the Eluvian is a topic of interest to me (in part because of what Morrigan said about where they lead to), so I'm as guilty as everyone else of diverting from the original topic of discussion when the elven devices were brought up, but I'm of the opinion that we should get to focusing on the original topic.
If the Dalish are trying to prevent a nemesis from taking away their freedom to worship the Creators or follow their elven customers by making certain they aren't in a position to harm them again, since Orlais is a nearby nation that shares borders with the Dales that can't simply go away into a distant house where they won't cause the elves any further harm (as per your example), than it's quite a different matter.
Of course, I think we're diverting a bit too much away from the original topic at hand, which is supposed to be about the leadership of the templars now that Lambert has gone missing.
And when prevention becomes an invasion? You know, Orlais has borders with other countries as well.
If the Dalish are trying to prevent a nemesis from taking away their freedom to worship the Creators or follow their elven customers by making certain they aren't in a position to harm them again, since Orlais is a nearby nation that shares borders with the Dales that can't simply go away into a distant house where they won't cause the elves any further harm (as per your example), than it's quite a different matter.
Of course, I think we're diverting a bit too much away from the original topic at hand, which is supposed to be about the leadership of the templars now that Lambert has gone missing.
The fact that if you swap just a few words around, this becomes Orlais' reasoning is funny.
If Orlais is trying to prevent a nemesis from taking away their freedom to worship the Maker or follow their human customers by making certain they aren't in a position to harm them again, since the Dales is a nearby nation that shares borders with Orlais that can't simply go away into a distant house where they won't cause the humans any further harm (as per your example), than it's quite a different matter.
You are disagreeing with the conventions of war themselves. The minute the elves invaded another's territory, then they ceased to be defenders and became agressors by the very definition of the word.military campaign in history has been justified. That still doesn't change the definition of words and how they apply to people and actions.
A person who beat up someone who entered his house uninvited is defending his proprierty. But if he pursues the enemy until its own house, then he becomes the one guilty of breaking and entering.
JB, you are incorrect on the theory. Maybe not in the context of the Dales, but military theory does recognize the concept of a defensive-oriented attack. Spoiler attacks, pre-emption, and projected forward defense are recognized means of defense.
JB, you are incorrect on the theory. Maybe not in the context of the Dales, but military theory does recognize the concept of a defensive-oriented attack. Spoiler attacks, pre-emption, and projected forward defense are recognized means of defense.
Your arguing on the implementation of theory into reality though aka the basis of the legality preemptive warfare.
Slippery slope and chalk full of interpretation and debate.
And given the U.N considers it illegal unless of three separate criteria are met, i wouldn't stand behind that military president.
So yeah, why?
Lambert is assumed dead.
Cassandra is with Inquisition.
Knight-Commanders of one city have no authority in another city therefore not leaders of all Templars.
There is just no one.
Mages on the other hand Have Fiona, Adrian and Rhys. There are limitless theories I can come up with but I'd like to hear you people
You are aware the Templar Order is a disciplined hierarchical organization, right?
You are aware the Templar Order is a disciplined hierarchical organization, right?
There are rebel templars and red templars. It seems that disciplined, hierarchical structure is falling apart.
Especially since the original Order is no more, with the Nevarran Accord.
True, but that doesn't mean they can't retain their hierarchy when forming their New Order(s).
Edit: WTF? Delayed double post.
You are aware the Templar Order is a disciplined hierarchical organization, right?
Well we should consider the fact that the Templar title with highest authority is Knight-commander and that authority is limited to a city/continent only. Meredith can't order around a common Templar in Ferelden. Only Seekers can have country-wide or worldwide authority. The wiki says many Seekers remained loyal to chantry while only a very few Templars remained loyal. Not to mention more sub-factions are created among other things like red templars. This is where we separate discipline from Templar order.
I wonder if this is the game that the Knight-Vigilant and the Knight-Divines will make their appearance.
I wonder if this is the game that the Knight-Vigilant and the Knight-Divines will make their appearance.
I hope so
Just to interject: Isn't the Masked Empire due out soon? We might know more then.
I hope so
I don't see a better time to do so than right now with them being in a full-scale war. Plus it'll be interesting to see the head Templars since we know so little about them.
I hope so
I would find it so ironic if a Knight "Divine" Went over to Lambert's faction 
And you know what? If i was him i'd still keep and use the title.
I don't see a better time to do so than right now with them being in a full-scale war. Plus it'll be interesting to see the head Templars since we know so little about them.
I wonder if one of them or both also broke away, if so one of them could easily lead them
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